Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jan 1982

Vol. 332 No. 1

Live Broadcasting of Budget Statements: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. F. O'Brien)

I move:

That Dáil Eireann authorise the broadcasting live on sound of the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance to-morrow and the statement of the Opposition spokesman subject to the following conditions:—

(i) that both statements be broadcast in their entirety and that they be not interrupted by commentary, analysis or commercial breaks;

(ii) that the statements may not later be rebroadcast in whole or in part; and

(iii) that copyright in the material be retained by Dáil Éireann.

The purpose of this motion is to allow radio broadcasting of the Budget Statement and the statement by the Opposition spokesman. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges met and had a full discussion on this matter. I am happy to say there was full agreement that these statements should be broadcast. The committee also considered television. In any aspect of life one must creep before one walks. It was a wise decision to permit radio broadcasting only as an experiment and to see how it will operate. I believe it will be a success. Radio is the ideal medium for broadcasting the Budget Statement and the reply by the Opposition spokesman. There will be interest in them, and consideration can be given also to broadcasting major statements from time to time by the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Opposition.

The House and the committee will have an opportunity to evaluate the effect this will have on the House. We must ensure that it does not interfere with the operation of the House, with its smooth running and with the conduct of the House. I do not think radio should have any ill effects. With television, people might perform if they were on camera. In this case we have selected our performers, the Minister and the Opposition spokesman. I am looking forward to it. It is an historic occasion which we will remember. We will be asking for a copy of the recording to be placed in the Dáil Library as an historic record of something of importance in this House.

We are opening up the House to the people. We will have time to consider its effects and I hope we will be able to bring many more transmissions to the people. It will not be anything like Top of the Pops or top of the TAM ratings. We are broadcasting these statements on radio to give information. I am pleased that the committee grasped the nettle and gave their approval without any rancour. Obviously some people will always have reservations, and rightly so.

This is an innovation and we must look at it carefully. I have no doubt but that RTE will treat the House in the manner in which it should be treated. It is very important that the dignity of Parliament be preserved and its proceedings be upheld to the highest standard. This broadcast will afford people an opportunity of being part of the proceedings of this House. It must be remembered that it is the people who elect us and, apart from the occasions on which they see us in our constituencies or read about events here in the paper, they do not really know what happens in this House. On this occasion they will know. There is always an air of excitement and anticipation about budgets, their contents and what the Opposition may think of them. The creation of that type of interest among the public will make them more aware of politics and of the role of this House. God knows we are not short of knockers, particularly in regard to some shows that try to depict this House as operating with less than dignity. It is right that this type of broadcast should demonstrate that this is a Parliament of dignity, a House serious about its business and, most important of all, one which legislates for the people's benefit, making laws affecting their daily lives. Therefore, it is right that they be afforded an opportunity on radio of feeling part of that institution.

I put this proposal to the Government and they were indeed happy to agree with my suggestion that this broadcast be allowed. I was happy also at the manner in which it was received by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It augurs well for the future of this media — and I speak here of radio — which could have an important role to play in making people more aware of their politicians, of the hard work they do and the time they devote to it. It might well restore peoples' confidence in their parliamentarians, something the more witty pundits might like to denounce.

I look forward to this broadcast tomorrow as being as historic one and that it will prove to have been merely the beginning of bringing this Parliament nearer to and making it more meaningful for our people.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Fianna Fáil have indicated already, through our representation on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, their agreement to this motion. It is as well to remember its restricted nature. The first part of the motion states:

That Dáil Éireann authorise the broadcasting live on sound of the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance to-morrow and the statement of the Opposition spokesman subject to the following conditions:—

— conditions I have no doubt RTE will abide by — that is, again according to the wording of the motion:

(i) that both statements be broadcast in their entirety and that they be not interrupted by commentary, analysis or commercial breaks;

(ii) that the statements may not later be rebroadcast in whole or in part; and

(iii) that copyright in the material be retained by Dáil Éireann.

I might take the last condition first — that copyright in the material be retained by Dáil Éireann. I might extend that further and agree with the Minister of State's suggestion that the tape of this first radio broadcast of a budget speech be offered to the Dáil Library by RTE to be held here.

To revert to the motion and what will happen here tomorrow, while Fianna Fáil agreed with this proposal for a live broadcast, as distinct from the original request which was for coverage on television, and while we agreed to that proposal in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and do so here this evening, I want to state clearly that this is a once-off experiment, that the whole process will be subject to review after the event and that all similar applications will be considered on an event-by-event basis. We have very serious doubts on this side of the House with regard to this whole question of live broadcasting of debates here. The difficulty we foresee is where one draws the line between what was spoken about by the Minister of State, performances, and interference in what is a deliberative assembly, elected by the people to deliberate on the affairs of State, to direct the nation for the greater good of its people. There is a conflict there between open government and availability to the general public of all of the debates that take place in this House and interference with the working of a deliberative assembly. To date in the history of this State we have been very fortunate in that newspapers, radio and television have given detailed coverage of the debates which have taken place in both Houses. Each Member of the Houses would have his or her own view on the accuracy or otherwise of those reports. In certain instances we might all claim bias with regard to particular reporting. However, we have been fortunate with regard to the amount of coverage and balance we have experienced in that coverage over the years.

The one difficulty we foresee in this, the public's right to know, which has been well handled by the newspapers, radio and television in the traditional manner — in regard to tomorrow we are talking merely of just two clear statements in the budget debate — is that the inevitable follow-up will be a demand for continuous coverage. I want to say here that we have not agreed to it and have very serious doubts about the effect this would have on the democratic process. I think it would be fair to say that anybody aware of the British experience, anybody who has spoken to British parliamentarians on this subject, has discovered that, had they that decision to take again, they would not allow live broadcasts of the debates in the House of Commons because of the widely held view that it has not done anything to improve the image of democracy and of the operations of that House. What has been the experience in London similarly has been that in other Chambers.

We have gone along with this proposal, but I want to set the record straight and make it clear that it is to be a once-off experiment, that the doubts to which I have referred are held deeply by my party, and here I speak on behalf of my party on this issue. I know RTE will adhere to the letter of the terms of the motion and I would appeal to them to provide the appropriate tapes for the Library of this House. All I can say is that the two speakers whose contributions will be broadcast tomorrow will in no way let down the image of this House.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. B. Desmond)

On behalf of the Labour Party I give this motion unreserved welcome. In so far as it meets an entirely legitimate, democratic need, any reservations I have relate to the limitations of the motion and not to the limited extent of the provision being made here this evening. It is ten years almost to the day since RTE first sought access to the Dáil for coverage of the EEC-entry debate. Therefore, it has taken us a decade to convince Deputies in Dáil Éireann that there is not anything uniquely sacrosanct about the modulations of the human voice of a Deputy emanating from this Chamber. It is ironic indeed that within 60 yards of this Chamber, Deputies grab microphones, grab access to RTE, to BBC, UTV, Canadian broadcasting, American broadcasting and will talk into almost any type of microphone in order to expound their views. However, somehow or other the cloak of democratic responsibility hangs so heavily on their shoulders once they enter this House that they will permit their pearls of wisdom only to be recorded in a verbatim report, to be recorded in print in the national newspapers and, ironically, to be recorded in the RTE programme "Today in the Dáil". In this latter programme an objective and excellent reporter summarises our views and puts them out. We do not complain about it.

I was a Member of this House in 1972 and I thought it a crying shame that the historic debate on our entry into the Common Market was not recorded and broadcast to the nation. At that time the Committee on Procedure and Privileges threw out the proposal. They refused to agree to public broadcasts on radio, either live or recorded, of selected Dáil proceedings. When I was the Labour Party Whip in March 1973 a further request was made for radio coverage of the election of the Taoiseach and RTE also requested a recording of the debate on the appointment of Government members at that time. I cannot be accused of lacking objectivity on this matter when I state that the then Taoiseach, the former Deputy Cosgrave, and the then Coalition Government, despite the fact that there were divisions within the Cabinet on the matter, refused permission and we had the ready acquiescence of Fianna Fáil in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

We have made some small progress today and I welcome that. It is very difficult to understand why there is such an outmoded distaste on the part particularly of Fianna Fáil, the largest party in the House, towards the proposal to broadcast the proceedings of this House. Deputy Burke said he had "very serious doubts about the effect on the democratic process" if we agree to allow the speeches of the Minister for Finance and Deputy O'Donoghue to be broadcast.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I was talking about the generality of the debate.

Mr. B. Desmond

I do not think that the speech to be made by the Minister for Finance tomorrow will be subversive. It will be going out live and it is not likely to be interrupted by any hysterical bleeps——

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Minister of State should not twist my words.

Mr. B. Desmond

I do not think the contribution that will be made by Deputy O'Donoghue tomorrow afternoon will be an affront to the democratic process. I have no doubt it will be listened to with great interest. I welcome this long over-due decision on the part of Dáil Eireann and I hope it will be extended to other occasions in the future. For example, on the occasion of the election of the Taoiseach there is no reason why the speeches nominating him and also nominating the person opposing him should not be broadcast. It would have been very interesting to broadcast the speeches nominating the Ceann Comhairle——

Mr. Power

And also the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. B. Desmond

Likewise, some ministerial statements could be broadcast. For example, the report of the Taoiseach on the day on the outcome of summit meetings might be broadcast. I know there is a love-hate relationship — and that is putting it mildly — between many politicians and the media, particularly RTE. As I said earlier, RTE produce the programme "Today in the Dáil". I ask Deputy Burke and colleagues on this side of the House on how many occasions have we objected to the summary given by RTE on that programme?

Mr. Raphael Burke

Never.

Mr. B. Desmond

RTE have a programme lasting ten minutes dealing with the proceedings in Dáil Éireann and in 13 years membership of this House I could count on the fingers of my hands the number of occasions we have objected to that programme. Yet, a shiver of apprehension runs through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges regarding the prospect of live broadcasting of the Houses of the Oireachtas. Deputies have been unduly preoccupied about this matter. In future we should arrange for the live broadcasting of various State occasions. While I would not like to impose on the nation the live broadcasting of Question Time — not in its current form at any rate; we should spare the nation that excruciating boredom—there are many other occasions that could be broadcast. On major bills the opening Second Stage speech and the response by the opposition could be broadcast. For example, there will be an interesting Second Stage opening speech on the abolition of capital punishment and that could be broadcast. It does not necessarily have to be broadcast live. It could be broadcast in the late evening.

The person who first advocated the broadcasting of proceedings of the House was the then Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Social Welfare, Deputy Corish. At the presentation of the Jacobs Radio and Television Awards for 1974 in Wexford on 22 February 1975 he said:

It seems to me, as a Member of Dáil Éireann, that we cannot for long hope to stimulate public interest in a respect for our parliamentary institutions if we continue to deny broadcasting its legitimate access to the Houses of the Oireachtas. For, by so doing, we are denying access to many many thousands of people.

Our Parliament buildings seem to have been designed to exclude as many people as possible from gaining access to them, not in facilitating the greatest possible public presence. But Dáil Éireann is the people's Parliament, not a club, and the proceedings of Dáil Éireann and the Seanad should be accessible to the people as a right, not a privilege.

I come from a generation of politicians who grew up in the public arena without access to broadcasting of any kind. I think we have managed to survive the combat in Montrose, and the free participation by politicians in broadcasting has only added to, not detracted from, the role of the politician in public life. How much more fitting it would be if the people now were facilitated in their access to the centre of democracy.

That was the first occasion in the history of the State when the Tánaiste of the day spoke in such terms. I am sure he will have a certain sense of satisfaction about what has been done here today.

We have had the Year of the Disabled and at the end of that period it is appropriate that we should provide facilities whereby those who cannot see their politicians will be given an opportunity at least to hear them live on their radios. This is a show of minimum respect which politicians should have for those sections of the community who will never have the opportunity to read newspaper reports of parliamentary proceedings. Tomorrow they will be able to hear politicians live engaging in a democratic debate.

Accordingly I welcome this motion. I have grave reservations about part (ii) of the motion providing that the statements may not later be rebroadcast in whole or in part. I think that is nonsense as is the suggestion that other sections of the media, for instance the BBC and UTV, will not have access to parts of the broadcast. In that respect I do not agree with the motion.

I do not share the view of Deputy Burke about the attitude of Members of the House of Commons in London. I agree that some of the most irredeemable Tory Members whom I have met in Europe and elsewhere might not see the benefit of having radio equipment and even television in the House of Commons, but the vast majority of the Members there are in favour of live broadcasts of Commons debates.

In regard to the final part of the motion, that copyright in the broadcast material be retained by Dáil Éireann, I do not think that is necessary, although it may be a valuable restriction. I hope that at future meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges some of us will be able to convince Opposition members of the committee that we should extend and develop this as a standing public service facility for all the people of the nation. It is no less and no more than that, and I suggest that we do not make too much of a song and dance about it.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. F. O'Brien)

It was interesting to hear the views of Fianna Fáil and Labour. As Government Whip I have given the Fine Gael side. I am disappointed at the reticence of Fianna Fáil in regard to this broadcast. I do not think there is anything to be feared. It is simply a matter of factual broadcasting, and to suggest that there would be any misinterpretation is absurd.

Deputy Desmond suggested that we might have gone a little further. There was unanimous agreement in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in this respect, although the members expressed different views. I am sure that the committee were right to allow this narrow facility for the broadcast. For the first time we will be given an opportunity to evaluate the whole scene in this respect. We may then be able to make a long-term decision in regard to broadcasting proceedings in the House. This is a great opportunity, now that community radio is making such progress, to relay debates in the House so that local communities will be able to follow live the work here of their Deputies. We have made a start and we should keep the effort moving. We will be able now to gauge the attitudes and we will eliminate many of the fears that exist.

I suggest that this will become a great medium of direct information for the people throughout the country about what is happening in the Parliament they elected democratically. Democracy is supposed to be open and with confidence we should let the people know what is happening in Parliament. It is only in non-democratic countries that fears exist in regard to letting the people know too much. The day we fear to let our people know directly what is happening in Parliament will be the day when democracy will end.

I welcome this broadcast. I know Deputy Burke has reservations about it but I think he has no cause for such fears. We here make the laws and change them and we should welcome the broadcast with open arms. If it does not work out, well and good, but let us reconsider it after tomorrow.

Question put and agreed to.