Foyle Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

Minister for Fisheries and Forestry (Mr. Fitzpatrick

, Cavan-Monaghan): I move: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.”

The object of this Bill is to make provision for increased penalties in respect of offences under the Foyle Fisheries Acts, 1952 to 1976. The Foyle Fisheries Act, 1952, established the Foyle Fisheries Commission which is a joint North-South body with statutory responsibility for conservation, protection and development of the fisheries in the Foyle area. That Act also defines the Foyle area and lays down the fishery law for the area and the penalties for breaches thereof. The Foyle area comprises the entire catchment area of the River Foyle which flows partly in County Donegal and partly in Counties Derry and Tyrone. The Foyle Fisheries (Amendment) Acts, 1961 to 1976, amended and extended the provision of the Foyle Fisheries Act, 1952. Legislation similar in terms to the Foyle Fisheries Acts was enacted by the Northern Ireland authorities.

Most of the penalties for offences under the Foyle Fisheries Acts, 1952. 1961, have not been changed since 1952. The changed money values in the meantime and the growing level of illegal fishing in the Foyle area, including incidents of violence involving members of the Foyle Fisheries Commission's protection staff, clearly indicate that the existing penalties are not an adequate deterrent. Furthermore, the Fisheries Act, 1980, provides for substantial increases in fines for the same offences throughout the rest of the State.

The Bill provides for substantial increases in penalties for fishery offences in the Moville area which is the part of the Foyle area located in County Donegal. Maximum penalties of up to £600 and or six months in prison are prescribed on summary conviction. For example, fines of £10 under the 1952 Act have been increased to £200 and where a fine of £25 was prescribed in the 1952 Act it has been increased to £600 on summary conviction. For the more serious offences provision is made for trial on indictment and the penalty on conviction for such offences can extend to £2,000 and/or two years in prison.

I am seriously concerned about the high level of illegal fishing taking place not only in the Foyle area but in the country as a whole. Our valuable salmon stocks have been seriously depleted in recent years because of illegal activities. We all have a duty to ensure that these stocks are safeguarded in the interests of our commercial fishermen, anglers and our very important tourist industry. I am satisfied that the setting up of the regional fisheries boards has helped to improve protection and will continue to do so in the future. The increase in fines provided for in the Fisheries Act, 1980, should also contribute to a reduction in illegal fishing and I am satisfied that the increased penalties now proposed for the Foyle area will likewise reduce the level of illegal fishing there.

I should like to emphasise, as strongly as I can, that while I hold the office of Minister for Fisheries and Forestry I will spare no effort to ensure that the cancer of poaching is reduced to the minimum and, if possible, eliminated. I look forward to the continued co-operation of the regional fisheries boards, the Naval Service and the Garda in achieving that target.

I would refer Deputies to the explanatory memorandum accompanying the Bill which sets out the existing penalties and the proposed increased penalties. Similar provisions for increases in penalties for the same offences have been prescribed in a recent Fisheries Amendment (Northern Ireland) Order. It is proposed that both the Bill, when enacted, and the Northern Ireland order should come into operation at the same time. I recommend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Power

I should like to compliment the Minister on introducing this Bill and tell him that we support its provisions. The Minister is implementing legally an agreement that was reached between Lord Elton and myself as Minister earlier last year. We gave our word at that time that we would both enact the same type of legislation and I am glad that the Minister is doing that. The Foyle Fisheries Commission is a good example of North-South co-operation. We share the waters and the tributaries of the Foyle and the medial line runs down through the lough. For some time we have had joint representation by officials from each side and an alternating chairman. Despite the reasons for this enactment it can be said that the commission has worked successfully. I was glad that I had an opportunity of visiting the Foyle. I can recall Deputy Harte accusing me of not visiting it and describing me as a partitionist Minister because I had not visited the headquarters of the Foyle Fisheries Commission in Derry at a time when I was visiting Inishowen on the other side of the Foyle and meeting fishermen there, in Moville, Greencastle and other ports. Happily, we were able to remedy that and visit the Foyle. We spent two days in the Derry area and found the officials there to be very courteous, helpful and hospitable.

What the Minister has said about the cancer of poaching is true and in connection with that we discussed with the officials in Derry the very serious state of salmon stocks. There is a danger of their extinction in the Foyle and poaching has reached the most serious stage imaginable. We are dealing with dreadful people who are the enemies of any genuine fishermen or genuine Irishmen, north and south of the Border. A senior official told me that he spoke to one of these people and pointed out to him that he was on a course that would finish salmon for all time in the Foyle. The official said that it could well be that the salmon the poacher was trying to catch was the last one that was going up the Foyle to spawn. The reply he got was that even if it was the last salmon he would take it out if he could. They are the type of people we have to deal with. The salmon counts in that area are probably at their lowest level ever. I hope that these severe penalties have the desired effect. I would term them as hopefully a short-term restriction for a long-term gain. There are shorter fishing times that have been staggered up through the estuary to give the greatest chance of escapement and it is up to us to give that chance to salmon not alone on the Foyle but throughout the country. We will support the Minister, the Garda and the authorities in their efforts to give the greatest chance of escapement for salmon to the spawning grounds.

It is necessary to use this opportunity to dispel the myth that all poachers are confined to the Donegal side of the Foyle. There is a theory there that most poachers come from the St. Johnston area. I remember an official from the northern side telling us that there was always great activity in the poaching line before 17 March by people who were anxious to get the wherewithal to celebrate the national feast day. I am sure there would be some activity before 12 July also on the other side. The poachers who operate in that area are bad and they use very sophisticated equipment. They operate two-way radios to warn them of the approach of people and they stay in caravans in the area. They are quite brazen. Lately there has been a determined effort by the Garda, the protection staff and the police on the other side of the Border and their constant surveillance and determination have been effective. When I visited the area the salmon season was in full swing and we saw the results of that surveillance work. Many illegal nets and engines had been seized.

We should compliment the staff of the commission and the Garda who have a hard and dangerous job to do. They need all our support. The purpose of all this work is to ensure the survival of salmon in the Foyle and elsewhere and it is necessary to point out also that a certain amount of harm is done by pollution from industries, particularly on the Derry side of the river. I hope this will be monitored and that all pollution will be eliminated. A greater check should be kept on agricultural pollution which can be dangerous in spawning grounds. It would be a further example in cross-Border co-operation if we had a uniform code of monitoring, of penalties and checking on developments whether they are agricultural or industrial to ensure that deleterious matter does not find its way into our waters and harm spawning grounds. We should give nature a help in our follow-up to the re-stocking of our rivers and ensure that the co-operation that has existed on both sides of the Foyle will continue.

I support the Minister's statement about poachers. We share his opinion of them. They deserve to be pursued relentlessly. Poaching must be stamped out. It is hoped that as a result of the increased penalties there will soon be an improvement, not only in relation to the Foyle but all over the country and that our salmon stocks will so increase that we will be able to introduce less restrictive measures in the years ahead. This is our last chance as far as the Foyle is concerned. If its future as a salmon river is not secured by this amendment the outlook will be very bleak indeed—in fact, there will be no outlook. We on this side of the House support the Minister in this amendment.

Mr. D. Gallagher

Ba mhaith liom tréaslú leis an Aire ins an phost atá aige mar Aire Iascaigh. Is cosúil as seo amach go mbeidh sé mar dhualgas agamsa níos mó teangmhála a bheith agam leis an Aire in imeachtaí na hiascaireachta.

Tá a fhios agam chomh tábhachtach is atá a phost agus chomh fada agus a bhain-eann sé liomsa, déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall gach cúnamh gur féidir liom a thabhairt dó ins an aireacht atá faoin a chúram.

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an Aire san méid atá ráite aige faoin leagan tábhachtach seo den Bhille atá curtha os comhair na Dála. Na pionóis atá curtha síos, tá siad dian, ach sílim go bhfuil gá leo, agus nuair a léann duine na hath-ruithe atá ann, tuigfidh sé cén fáth atá leis na pionóis atá leagtha síos ins an chuid seo den leasú ar an mBille seo.

As this is my first time to speak on fisheries in the House, I would like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to the Ministry and wish him every success. From this side of the House, I shall have the responsibility for fisheries and I hope that, between us, we can make a worthwhile contribution to the future of the industry.

As I said when speaking in Irish, the amendment looks very severe indeed. However, it highlights the necessity for this type of amendment, particularly in regard to the conservation of our salmon stocks. As has been said by the Minister and by Deputy Power, poaching is now posing a very severe threat to the future of the salmon industry. There was a time when a person poaching caught a salmon for the sake of having a meal, or he went out for the occasional salmon and was satisfied with that. That is no longer the case. The stage has been reached where it has become a commercial proposition. The poachers are professionals and are using methods unheard of in the past. In this way they are cutting down the stocks, particularly in our rivers and on the way to the spawning beds. This cannot be tolerated. We must act responsibly and stamp poaching out at all levels.

For that reason, we agree entirely with this amendment. We hope that the commission will get full co-operation from everyone, particularly the fishermen, in trying to ensure that this type of poaching is eliminated. Quite honestly, the amendment is being introduced in the interests of the fishermen. If we do not conserve and protect our stocks there will be no industry. We must appeal to the fishermen, from this House, to adopt a more responsible attitude and to think of their own future and in particular, of the future of this great industry.

As has been said by Deputy Power, it is refreshing to see complete co-operation from our fellow members on the other side of the Foyle. It is a pity that we do not have this kind of co-operation in many other fields. The manner in which the commission has worked down the years, since established in 1952, shows how we could co-operate and work together, given the required will on both sides of the Border.

Possibly, later on, on the other Bill which is due to come before the House I will have more to say about the whole industry. I will finish by saying that as far as we on this side of the House are concerned the Minister and the Department will receive full co-operation in dealing with poachers and in trying to ensure that our valuable stocks of fish are maintained.

Mr. Connaughton

I wish to be associated with the support for this amendment. I take this opportunity to point out to the Minister that the River Foyle has been an outstanding salmon river. About 30 years ago there were, in that river, significant stocks of salmon. Unfortunately, down through the years the stocks have diminished. While we must always have our sights on conservation and on the discouragement of poachers, the Foyle Commission, who now control the river and are responsible for the issuing of licences, by the way they have been operating have encouraged poaching on the River Foyle. The number of licences has been drastically reduced, which has encouraged many people who might pay for licences to get into the salmon fishing business illegally. I do not think any of us would condone that. The Minister should consider taking a wider view as regards licence applications from traditional fishermen on the River Foyle, reviewing their cases and granting an extension of licences.

For some years the poachers fished the River Foyle and the licensed net men were excluded from fishing it, which was a very serious situation. I wish to put on record my praise of and thanks to the officers of the law who last year reversed that development of the last couple of years. In the 1981 season we returned to the normal practice which was that the fishermen who were licensed had the right to fish the river and did not experience the troubles which had been experienced previously, particularly in the areas where draft netting was extensive, from Culmore to Lifford.

In relation to the penalties that are now to be imposed in the Bill there are certain aspects that I want clarified. It would appear that the proposed amendments increase drastically the fines and the sentences of imprisonment to be imposed in relation to offences committed. In addition, the amendment clearly gives the Foyle Fisheries Commission options of referring charges on indictment. I want that clarified because it could very well happen that a person caught with five or six salmon could, on the orders of the commission, be sent for trial by jury and it would be wrong to give such wide ranging powers to the commission and a discretion as to how a person caught committing an offence should be dealt with. That, basically, is my worry in relation to the amendment that is being presented here. Otherwise I would fully endorse the recommendations and the updating of the penalties. The increase in the fines and penalties should be a great deterrent to poachers on the river. I would ask the Minister to ensure that the commission would perhaps increase the number of bailiffs on the river.

I want to take this opportunity to refer specifically to a very important salmon tributary to the Foyle Fisheries which is under the control of the commission, that is, the Culdaff river which has not been properly protected by the Foyle commissioners who are responsible for it. Otherwise I welcome the proposals in the Bill with the reservations I have made. I would ask for clarification on the point in relation to prosecution.

Minister for Fisheries and Forestry (Mr. Fitzpatrick

, Cavan-Monaghan): I want to thank the Deputies on the other side of the House for the welcome they have given this Bill and for facilitating its passage through the House. I also want to thank Deputy Gallagher for his welcome to me as Minister for Fisheries and Forestry. I want to reciprocate the hope that between us we will make a worthwhile contribution to the fishery industry.

It is no harm to give a very short history of the Foyle fisheries. Back in the 1600s it was held under a charter by a society known as the Honourable Irish Society and it continued to be held under that charter until comparatively recent times, probably the forties, when that charter was challenged in our courts in so far as it extended into our jurisdiction. Our courts upheld the claim of the plaintiffs and decided that the charter of the English king had no validity in our jurisdiction. The result then was that there was a free-for-all situation in and around Moville and in the Foyle area. Without introducing party politics into it, during the term of the first inter-Party Government from 1948-51 negotiations were entered into between the Northern Ireland authorities and the Republic with a view to acquiring this fishery and it was agreed that the fishery would be taken over and run by a commission known as the Foyle Fisheries Commission. Fianna Fáil, on their return to power, enacted the Act of 1952 which is the basic authority dealing with this fishery. It set up the Foyle Fisheries Commission and then the fisheries were purchased by the commission for something over £100,000 at that time. I would like to join with Deputy Power in complimenting the commission on the way it has worked since it was set up in 1952. It is certainly an example of North-South co-operation and it demonstrates how people can join hands across the Border and work in the common interests of everyone in our country. The Foyle Fisheries Commission consists of four members, two appointed by the authorities in Northern Ireland and two by the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry here; the chairman alternates between North and South each year.

We know from experience that the commission has worked well and has worked in the interests of the fishing industry. Since I became Minister for Fisheries and Forestry I was very pleased to receive a letter from the secretary of the commission complimenting members of the Garda on the great work done by them and on their co-operatin with their counterparts in Northern Ireland in bringing to justice people who were poaching and damaging the industry. I had great pleasure in sending that letter to the Garda Commissioner for noting. I would like certainly to join with Deputy Power in noting the co-operation between North and South through the commission.

The object of this Bill is to increase penalties for breach of the fishery law, in other words, to increase penalties for illegal fishing and for illegal methods of fishing and poaching. The penalties have been brought up from £10 to £200 and from £25 to £600 together with an increase in prison sentences.

I should like to put Deputy Connaughton's mind at ease in regard to prosecutions. There is provision for summary trial, that is, trial before a district justice. In such cases penalties do not exceed £200 or six months' imprisonment. There is provision for trial before judge and jury in the Circuit Court on indictment. In those cases the penalties are as high as £2,000 or two years' imprisonment. Deputy Connaughton was rather perturbed lest the commission would have the right to decide whether a person was to be tried in a summary way on indictment. I am glad to tell the Deputy that the commission do not decide. The Director of Public Prosecutions is the deciding authority. He decides if and where prosecutions will be brought. That is as it should be. I would rather be tried before a judge and jury even though the penalties are more severe. It is harder to get a conviction. Whether that is a compliment to the jury system or not I shall leave to the House to decide.

Mr. Power

It is a reflection on the legal eagle.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): If the Deputy teased it out he might come to the other conclusion. The object of the Bill is to increase penalties in order to eliminate poaching. It is necessary to take a serious view of poaching. Our salmon stocks are under severe pressure. The records show that in the sixties about 135,000 salmon per year were taken from the Foyle area. The number of salmon caught was 35,000 in 15 years. I am not saying that the cause of the fall in our salmon stocks is totally due to operations in the Foyle. It begins as far away as the Faroe Islands. At present I and my officials are fighting a hard battle with the Faroese.

I do not have to tell the story of how the salmon come home but we know that they do. The Faroese catch a fair percentage of salmon as they pass their islands. All the salmon are not ours but some proportion of them are. The Faroese catch as much as 1,600 tons of salmon as they pass the islands. We are negotiating for a reduction of that to somewhere between 417 tons and 815 tons.

It is up to us and to whatever Government are in power to do our best to protect the salmon. We know that there is a lot of illegal drift-net fishing in our waters. All kinds of illegal fishing methods are used in our inland rivers. All these things combine to put salmon under pressure.

Deputy Gallagher said everybody should co-operate to eliminate poaching and illegal fishing, particularly fishermen. I could not agree more. It is fishermen and their families who in the long run will lose the most if our salmon stocks are destroyed. Many areas of the country will lose out if our rivers are overfished because tourists will no longer be attracted to them.

I am glad the Bill has been given a welcome and that all sides of the House are at one in seeing that illegal fishing and poaching is stamped out. It is in the interests of the fishing industry, fishermen and the tourist industry. I thank Deputies for the reception they have given the Bill.

Question put and agreed.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jan 1982