I move:
"That Deputy Gay Mitchell be suspended from the service of the Dáil".
Suspension of Member.
On a point of order, while in the Chair the Leas-Cheann Comhairle said he was sending for you. We had not understood that. I did not hear him say that and I am not sure if other people did——
We all heard him.
I am open to correction but I did not hear him say that. In fact, I thought he was proceeding to the next business. If the Deputy was not on notice, if he was not aware of that, I am wondering if he can properly be named? I did not hear the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
I did not hear him and I am beside him.
I got a report from the Leas-Cheann Comhairle that he had asked the Deputy to leave and that the Deputy had refused. I cannot question the actions of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. As Deputy FitzGerald knows, I have to act on the information given to me by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is regrettable but the situation is there and the matter cannot be discussed. The Tánaiste moved that the Deputy be named.
On a point of order, is it in order to have somebody named and to call for the Ceann Comhairle without having given notice of calling for the Ceann Comhairle? Is that the correct procedure?
The Deputy refused to leave the House. When a Deputy refuses to leave the House when called upon to do so, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle automatically calls for the Ceann Comhairle because he has not the power to suspend the Member.
He does not have to give notice to the Deputy?
On a point of order when a Deputy takes a stand on something which he believes is fundamental and when he finds himself in conflict with the Chair, when the Chair asks him to resume his seat and he fails to do so and when the Chair asks him to leave the House and he fails to do so, has it not been the practice to adjourn the House for a few moments to clarify the position?
That is a matter for the Chair.
Has that not been the practice of the Chair——
Then what was the purpose of adjourning the House?
It is a matter for the Chair.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Has it not been the practice for the Chair when he has called upon a Deputy to resume his seat or to leave the House to then warn the Deputy that unless he leaves the House he will be forced to name him.
I cannot question the ruling of the Leas Cheann Comhairle. The Leas Cheann Comhairle informed me that the Deputy refused to leave the House when directed to do so and then he sent for me.
(Cavan-Monaghan): In my experience it has been the invariable practice to warn the Deputy that, unless he complied with the request of the Chair, the Chair would have him named.
I got a report and I must act accordingly.
In the interest of trying to make peace, and seeing that the Government members were talking about generosity an hour ago, would it not be seemly and friendly for you to repeat to Deputy Mitchell the request the Leas-Cheann Comhairle made?
I am sorry. I cannot do that. My duty is to act on the information given to me by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I cannot question the ruling of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I have given a lot of thought to this matter.
What is the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's ruling?
The Leas-Comhairle told me that he had asked Deputy Mitchell to leave the House, that he had refused to do so and he asked me to take action accordingly. He does not have to name the Deputy for that. I acted on instructions to me from the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and I called on the Minister for Finance to name him.
We understand that it has been the practice when a Deputy is warned——
I studied the Standing Order over the last week and I will read it out.
(Limerick East): Before you read it out, you were actually sent for when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle asked Deputy Mitchell to resume his seat. That is the issue on which you were sent for.
I did not hear what happened, I did not have the monitor on. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle sent for me, told me that he had asked the Deputy to leave the House and that he had refused. He then called for me to take action.
Before sentence is passed, I want to say I was only trying to raise a point of order. I have run into difficulties on countless occasions with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I am very sorry for causing embarrassment but I have to take a stand on this. I feel the matter is of public interest and that my behaviour was correct.
We might as well throw the Standing Orders out of the House.
Would you read the Standing Order?
Standing Order No. 51 is as follows:
(1) The Ceann Comhairle shall order a member whose conduct is grossly disorderly to withdraw immediately from the Dáil for the remainder of that day's sitting. If, however, on any occasion the Ceann Comhairle deems that the powers conferred under this Standing Order are inadequate to deal with the offence, he may, in accordance with the next succeeding Standing Order, name such Member for misconduct, or he may call on the Dáil to adjudge upon his conduct. Members ordered to withdraw in pursuance of this Standing Order, or who are suspended in pursuance of the next Standing Order, shall forthwith withdraw from the precincts of the Dáil.
(2) A member may be named or the Dáil called on to adjudge upon his conduct only when the Ceann Comhairle is in the Chair.
I know the wording says that the Ceann Comhairle may order him to be named. It does not say that he must do so. I submit that it has been the practice only to call for a person to be named after he has been warned that if he does not cease from the offending behaviour he will be named. I suggest to you, Sir, that you exercise your discretion invested in you by the Standing Order——
I am sorry, Deputy, I do not like the position but I have to act on information given to me by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle; otherwise the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the Ceann Comhairle would lose credibility.
I was present while this matter was going on. My recollection of procedures in the past is that the Ceann Comhairle or the Leas-Cheann Comhairle rose to his feet, struck the bell and clearly warned the Deputy that unless he resumed his seat, or, alternatively, left the House, he would be named. In this instance the Leas-Cheann Comhairle did not do that. Most Deputies believe that this procedure should have been adopted.
You are questioning the authority of the Chair which is not in the interest of Members of the House.
I ask the Chair to exercise his authority by using the discretion conferred on him in the second sentence of Standing Order 51 (1) which says if on any occasion the Ceann Comhairle deems that the powers conferred under this Standing Order are inadequate to deal with the offence, he may in accordance with the next succeeding Standing Order, name such Member for misconduct or he may call on the Dáil to adjudge upon his conduct. As the normal procedure was not gone through and as we were under the impression that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was taking a tolerant view, perhaps unduly tolerant, of Deputy Mitchell's actions, the House was under a misapprehension. We genuinely thought that Deputy Mitchell had finished and we were going on to the next business. We were very taken aback to hear he was calling for you with a view to naming Deputy Mitchell, not having gone through the normal procedure.
I am sorry, Deputy, I must take the information that was given to me by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. You must understand my position, I must uphold the authority of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I am asking the Deputies to understand the position that I acted on the basis of information received from the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I cannot question the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on the matter.
(Dún Laoghaire): As Chief Whip, I must apologise for any inconvenience caused to anybody. I appreciate there is some doubt about what took place. Unfortunately, I was not here. You will appreciate that there is some doubt and I would ask you, without showing any disrespect to the position you hold, to ask Deputy Mitchell to apologise to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for any disrespect shown to the House and perhaps that would settle the matter.
There is provision for that, but first of all we must go through this and then the Deputy can seek to do that later. It is a matter for the House then to decide, not for me.
You say it is a matter for the House that Deputy Mitchell should be now named?
I must go through the formality now. I will read it to you.
Deputy Barrett has suggested that Deputy Mitchell would apologise to the Chair for misunderstanding the steps that need to be take and that would be the end of the matter. Would that be acceptable to you?
I wish it was. I do not like this situation.
The Standing Order says that you may do something. How do you interpret this as laying down that you must do it? I can understand you saying that you have a discretion and that you have decided not to exercise it. I cannot understand you saying that you have not got discretion. In view of the fact that the procedure has always been adopted of ringing the bell, of standing and so on, and that that has not gone through, it appears to me that the case for exercising your discretion is very strong indeed. Deputies are entitled to rely on the tradition of the House. If that is not gone through the Chair should exercise his discretion——
I had been given information by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and on the basis of that information I must act. Even questioning this at the moment is disorderly.
You "may" act, not "must".
It is normal practice that the Deputy would be warned.
I am not aware of anything like that. Information has been given to me that the Deputy was asked to leave the House, that he refused to do so, and in a case like that the Deputy is named.
(Dún Laoghaire): We fully respect you have a job to do, a difficult one. We are trying to say that there is room for discretion on your part. I am asking you, in view of the doubt surrounding the whole affair, that you would use that discretion on condition that Deputy Mitchell will apologise to the House.
We must first go through this formality.
If you go through the formality the door is closed.
It is not.
I will leave the House.
This place has become such a farce that we should all leave.
I must go through with the motion. I have called on the Minister for Finance to name the Deputy and any debate on it is disorderly. The motion has been put without amendment and therefore without debate.
May I address the Chair?
No, you may not. You are being disorderly again.
I do not wish to be disorderly. In deference to the Chair I wish to withdraw from the House. I am genuinely sorry to have brought this on the Chair.
I have to go through with this——
In deference to the Chair, in any event, I will withdraw from the House.
Deputy G. Mitchell withdrew from the Chamber.
I have called on the Minister for Finance to move that the Deputy be suspended from the services of the Dáil.
I have already moved it.
The question is: "That Deputy Gay Mitchell be suspended from the service of the Dáil".
This is not necessary. There has been a genuine misunderstanding.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 68.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Andrews, Niall.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Bellew, Tom.
- Brady, Gerard.
- (Dublin South-East).
- Brady, Gerry.
- (Kildare).
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Matty.
- Brennan, Ned.
- Brennan, Seamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Sean.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Cowen, Bernard.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Francis.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Filgate, Eddie.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
- Fitzsimons, Jim.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Foley, Denis.
- French, Seán.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Gibbons, Jim.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Keegan, Seán.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Loughnane, Bill.
- Lynch, Michael.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- MacSharry, Ray.
- Meaney, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P. J.
- Murphy, Ciarán P.
- Noonan, Michael J.
- (Limerick West).
- O'Dea, William G.
- O'Donoghue, Martin.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- Power, Paddy.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Myra.
- Barry, Peter.
- Begley, Michael.
- Bermingham, Joe.
- Birmingham, George.
- Boland, John.
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- FitzGerald, Alexis.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Fleming, Brian.
- Governey, Des.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hussey, Gemma.
- Keating, Michael.
- Kelly, John.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- L'Estrange, Gerry.
- McGinley, Denis.
- Carey, Donal.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlon, John F.
- Cooney, Patrick M.
- Corr, James.
- Cosgrave, Liam T.
- Cosgrave, Michael J.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crowley, Frank.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Martin A.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Markey, Bernard.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Molony, David.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, William.
- O'Donnell, Tom.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- O'Toole, Paddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, John.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Skelly, Liam.
- Spring, Dick.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and Fitzsimons; Níl, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and L. Burke.
Question declared carried.
Can you permit me to make a comment for the information of the Taoiseach and Deputy FitzGerald and Deputy O'Leary? This is a complete abuse of parliamentary time when 160,000 people are unemployed and farmers are on the brink of bankruptcy.
Deputy Flanagan voted for anarchy today.
No wonder people are losing faith in democracy. We are not doing our job. This is 7 July and the budget proposals have not yet been confirmed. This could not happen in any other democratic country.
We may have to proceed with another vote if Deputy Flanagan continues talking.
On a point of order, I wish to refer to Question Time. I know it is a bit like mentioning the Boer War on VE day. I wish to raise a point which I was unable to raise earlier because you divested yourself of your gown so quickly at 3.30 p.m. and gave it to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. He was not long there before he was sitting three benches back with the sanctified look of the cat who has reported the dog for stealing a chop.
(Interruptions.)
Is this a point of order?
The last question dealt with was No. 15, in which Deputy Richard Bruton asked the Minister for Finance about revenue buoyancy in the first quarter.
On a point of order——
I must hear Deputy Kelly's point of order first.
If the form of this question is repeated in October but with reference to the first three-quarters of the year, will it avoid being knocked out under the six-month rule?
I will examine that point.
Sympathetically, I hope.
I am always sympathetic.
I wish to raise on the Adjournment the closure of day-care centres by the health board in my area.
I will communicate with the Deputy. A point of order from the Taoiseach.
I withdraw my point of order.