It is proposed to take No. 12 (resumed).
Order of Business.
Will the Minister for Transport take an opportunity to make a statement on the serious Dublin bus problem?
That does not arise on the Order of Business. Today the Order of Business is a mere formality because it was already arranged on Tuesday, 24 May.
That is precisely what worries me. There will not be an opportunity to raise this matter later today by way of Private Notice Question and I wondered if the Minister had anything to say because of the many Dublin city buses which are affected.
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Yesterday the Minister said he was introducing three or four amendments which would be debated on Report Stage. I want to insist that, as we will have only three hours to debate these matters on Tuesday, we get these amendments today. While I welcome the fact that the Minister is prepared to introduce amendments in the areas we proposed — affidavits for declarations, investigations into the banks, advance corporation tax and corporation stock relief — we need to see these amendments now if we are to have a meaningful debate on Tuesday.
Today we will continue debating the section dealing with income-related property tax. During the week ministerial amendments have been put down on this matter. We now have before us 78 ministerial amendments to the provisions of the income-related property tax which was introduced less than a week ago, and some of them are substantial amendments.
If the Deputy will bear with me——
This is appropriate to the Order of Business.
We are going to discuss this item after the Order of Business.
I want to clarify the Order of Business. Some of these proposals suggest deletions of sections which go to the root of the matter, and the Minister acknowledged that. On inquiry mid-week we were informed by the Department that the ministerial amendments were technical. They are technical but only in the sense that they do not involve extra money. Nevertheless they are at the root of this section. There are 78 amendments——
The sooner we get to them the sooner we will have the opportunity to clarify them.
I want the Chair to think in terms of discharging his responsibility, the Opposition endeavouring to discharge theirs and the Government discharging theirs. Does the Chair think that in three hours we can discuss effectively the proposal which is regarded by all as being new — let us be kind and say no more than that — and amended by 78 amendments? I have obviously been concentrating on other parts of the Bill, and the Minister may have had advice from people working on these amendments, but how can we discharge our responsibility to the people and ensure that they will know what is involved in this legislation when it passes through this House?
If we get on with the business the Deputy will have until 4 o'clock to discuss it. Deputy Leyden.
Has the Minister anything to say?
This is wasting time.
It is not wasting time.
In the Chair's opinion it is.
In our view it is not and we are entitled to air our views. Let us hear from the Minister.
In my view it is a waste of time and I am so ruling.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair is in control here and I will not have it any other way.
Following on the first part of Deputy O'Kennedy's remarks, I can tell him that I will be anxious to have the amendments I referred to yesterday available at the earliest possible opportunity. If it is any comfort to him I want to say that on reflection I may not have as many as I thought last evening. Last evening I gave notice that I was considering——
Another change.
——three particular amendments. In view of what the Deputy is saying I am sure he would not object if there were fewer. As to the number of amendments to the residential property tax, the Deputy is aware that a large number of them are consequential and that one amendment in a particular subsection gives rise to a series of amendments in other subsections. This means that the effective number of changes is not anything like as large as the Deputy thinks.
Yesterday, the Minister referred specifically to three sections to which he was going to introduce amendments on Report Stage. We fought these sections long and hard — we did not get to some — and we proposed that they be deleted. It is not enough for the Minister to say, in respect of sections 17, 18 and that section dealing with the advance corporation profits tax, that he will introduce the amendments as soon as possible but not say when. We have to debate these amendments next Tuesday and if we get them on Monday how can we possibly examine them in depth before Tuesday? Last night the Minister acknowledged that he had no answer to the arguments we were putting on section 83 and said he would reconsider it.
The Deputy is going back on an argument which took place yesterday. This is wasting the time of the House.
It is not. The Minister said that on reflection he did not think he will be introducing many amendments to section 83.
I did not say that.
There is no point addressing the Chair about this. The Chair has no control——
The Deputy may want to waste the time of the House, but I would prefer that he did not do it on the basis of a misconstruction of what I said.
I ask the Minister precisely when will we have these amendments so that we will at least have an opportunity to study them before we come into the debate and finally in the last three hours?
Deputy O'Kennedy is completely out of order.
Is it out of order to ask that?
The Deputy is making a speech about something which is not before the House at the moment.
What is before the House is the Finance Bill.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
If Deputy Leyden wishes to speak, I am calling on him now. Deputy O'Kennedy will resume his seat. Will Deputies please resume their seats?
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
Deputy O'Kennedy is trying to be thrown out.
On a point of order——
Deputy Tunney, on a point of order.
Standing Orders, as I see it, visualise what should happen. Could the Chair indicate to the House what Standing Orders require in the matter of circulation of amendments?
Amendments on Report Stage are not circulated until Committee Stage is disposed of. They do not arise until then.
Would the Chair accept that it is not a matter for the Minister to say that the amendments will be issued when he is ready, but that the House visualises——
Deputies
He never said that.
Deputy Tunney.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please. The Chair will deal with the amendments when they are received in the office.
Could he indicate to the House again when they should be circulated?
The Deputy has a copy of the Standing Orders as well as I and I shall deal with that when it arises.
I am asking the Chair to tell the House when they should be circulated and the Chair is refusing to answer.
I have great pleasure in moving item No. 1 on the Order Paper.
Would the Deputy please bear with the Chair for a moment? Would he take his seat for a second? Order, please. There is a slight difficulty about this.
(Interruptions.)
This must be a new type of parliamentary debate. All those on the Government benches are laughing like hyenas. One would not think that the country is in the state that they have it by the way they are acting.
This House is convened especially to sit today to deal with the Finance Bill. The Deputies should get on with the work.
And send the schoolboys home.
We are in a slight difficulty here, Deputy Leyden. As I said, this is a special sitting and the order which arranged for the sitting today was made on 24 May. The relevant portion of the order reads as follows:
The Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 27 May 1983 and shall adjourn not later than 4.00 p.m. and the business on that day shall be confined to the Finance Bill, 1983.
While that creates a difficulty here this morning in your moving the Private Members' Bill, which I understand you are thinking of moving, it does not create any real difficulty for you because you can move that Bill on Tuesday, if you so wish. Even if you want to discuss it in Private Members' Time on Tuesday, that can be arranged too, so you are not really at any disadvantage.
I accept that. However, I remind the Ceann Comhairle that it is on the Order Paper today and I am quite entitled to move it today.
The Deputy should have moved it in March or December of last year.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
All I am seeking is that we move it today and have it debated next week. That is all.
I do not know whether the Deputy heard me or not.
I heard the Chair.
I am explaining that that is not technically possible. I call on Deputy De Rossa.
On the Order of Business, could the Chair indicate when the referendum on the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution will be held?
Perhaps the Deputy would raise the matter on Tuesday?
On the Order of Business, may I ask the Minister for the Environment if, in view of the breakdown of talks in the Cork refuse dispute, he proposes taking any steps to alleviate the imminent danger to health in that area arising from the non-collection of refuse over such a long period?
That does not arise.
It is a very important issue.
Finance Bill, 1983. Amendment 91. The Minister.
Government by laughter.
The Minister for Finance is not laughing at all.