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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 1983

Vol. 345 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - Bantry Maternity Hospital Facilities: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to provide maternity facilities at Bantry Hospital, County Cork.

Since this Government came to power a number of maternity units have been selected for closure, including Monaghan, Dundalk and Roscommon. A crisis situation exists in Bantry where the maternity unit was closed last February and the Minister has refused to sanction its reopening. Bantry is one of the two hospitals in the country where an archaic system existed where the county physician was the obstetrician and the county surgeon was the gynaecologist and carried out the operative procedures. This was the system in all county hospitals until about 20 years ago. Bantry and Dundalk were the only hospitals where the old system continued.

Last February the county physician in Bantry went on sick leave. While it was possible to find a locum to carry on for him in relation to general medicine it is understandable that it was quite impossible to find a locum prepared to carry on general medical duties and obstetrics and gynaecology as well. I understand there was no difficulty in getting two consultants to replace him at different times for general medicine but it was not possible to get a locum to look after the obstetrics. The unit was closed last February. The health board requested the Minister to sanction the reopening of the maternity unit and the development of an obstetric unit at Bantry hospital but the Minister has refused to do this. It is difficult to understand this decision.

Bantry general hospital has a catchment area with a population of 55,208. The west Cork health district has 48,973 and Kerry has 6,235 people in the Bantry hospital catchment area. It is interesting to note that the figure of over 55,000 is up 15,000 since the time the Fitzgerald report was published in the late sixties. There are at least three peninsulas in west Cork each about 50 miles from Bantry and there is also an area of Kerry going west as far as Sneem. The number of births in the area in 1982 was 823 and they were divided as follows: in Bantry hospital there were 191 births, Skibbereen 99, Erinville in Cork 269, Saint Finbar's 115, Bon Secours 130 and Victoria 19, a total of 823.

The geographical distribution of where the women came from is Bantry 171, Castletownbere 34, Clonakilty 180, Dunmanway-Drimoleague 142, Skibbereen 185, Schull-Goleen 28, Kenmare-Sneem area 72 and others 12.

Comhairle na nOspidéal published their recommendation in a document in 1976. The objectives for good obstetric care, as outlined by An Chomhairle, are monitoring and maintaining the health of the mother during pregnancy through regular and ante-natal care ensuring safe delivery under skilled supervision, ensuring that through skilful attention the infant is given the best chance of optimum health and normal development. An Chomhairle also pointed out that many considerations point towards the concentration of inpatient obstetrical services at consultant level in viable centres catering for a minimum of 1,500 to 2,000 deliveries per annum. I understand that in Sweden, where some research was done, they discovered that the infant death rate dropped in units where the birth rate was more than 1,500 per annum.

It is interesting that here the infant death rate declined over the past decade. An Chomhairle pointed out in their document that this is in considerable measure because of improvements in obstetrical management. This decline occurred with the majority of the maternity units having less than 1,500 births per annum. In reply to a question last week the Minister said that there are 51 units in the country with less than 1,500 deliveries per annum and there are 17 with more than 1,500. If one takes the major boroughs of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford out of it there are only six areas left in the whole country with more than 1,500 deliveries per annum: Sligo, Letterkenny, Wexford, Castlebar, Drogheda and Ballinasloe.

In Cavan hospital the infant death rate is very low compared with the rest of the country. This is one of the hospitals with less than 1,500 deliveries per annum. It is very interesting that Professor Henry from the Rotunda Hospital in the Irish Medical Times of 21 October said that there was a very high perinatal mortality rate in the Rotunda last year. He said that he was satisfied that part of the blame for this must rest with inadequate labour ward accommodation. Obviously it has not been proved that the large centres have any more to offer than the smaller centres. Fianna Fáil reject the concept that it is necessary to have 1,500 deliveries per annum to have a viable unit. We showed that when an appointment was made for an obstetrician to Roscommon with considerably less than 1,500 deliveries. We believe it is necessary to have adequate maternity facilities throughout the country even if the deliveries in such units are considerably less than 1,500. It is important to recognise that there is a move away from major hospitals and super-specialities. Rex Lowry stated in the College of Surgeons Journal that only 10 per cent to 15 per cent of all the people who go into hospital need super-special attention. Up to 95 per cent of the deliveries are normal so we are talking about the 5 per cent of deliveries that there are problems with. We have to balance the risk to the mother and infant where the birth takes place in a smaller maternity unit compared with a major maternity hospital a distance of anything from 60 to 100 miles away. This applies in Monaghan, Dundalk, Roscommon as well as in Bantry. Some parts of the Bantry catchment area are 110 miles from the nearest maternity hospital which is in Cork city. It is very difficult to understand how a Minister could be satisfied to tell any woman that it was acceptable for her to travel 110 miles to have her baby delivered. We are talking of a distance that is equal to the distance between Belfast and Dublin or between Nenagh and Dublin. I fail to understand how anyone in his senses could suggest to a woman in Belfast or in Nenagh, for instance, that she should be satisfied with the maternity service in Dublin. That does not take into account the fact that if one were travelling from Belfast to Dublin or from Nenagh to Dublin, one would be on a national primary route whereas in west Cork one would be travelling on roads which, it is fair to say, are among the poorest in Europe.

It must be accepted that the medical risk both to the mother and to the infant in travelling such distances to a major maternity unit is greater than travelling the much shorter distance to a hospital where there is an obstetrician in attendance although there may be fewer than 1,500 deliveries there each year. There is also the risk of road accidents in travelling the long distances especially when the driver may be the husband of the woman concerned and, consequently, is under stress. All these factors must be taken into account when we are deciding on the best maternity service that we can provide. We must ask ourselves, too, what the medical implications would be if a number of women decided to remain in their own homes during the deliveries of their babies when they may live up to 100 miles from the nearest maternity hospital. Emergencies can occur very rapidly in obstetrics. For example, there can be severe bleeding. If specialist attention is necessary to deal with such an emergency the patient may have to be transferred to hospital which in the case of the Bantry catchement area would be more than 100 miles away or it may be possible to have the emergency service brought to the woman. If we are talking of the emergency service in the nature of the flying squad coming from the maternity hospital in Cork to one of the peninsula areas in west Cork we are talking of a delay of two to three hours and that could prove fatal.

The closing of the unit in Bantry could not be justified in circumstances in which fatalities might occur as a result. In the event of a patient having to be transferred to Cork, I understand that there is available from Cork a helicopter service but it is not necessary for me to remind the House that such a service is very limited. Assuming that a helicopter were available in Cork to go to West Cork there is the factor that these machines do not fly at night. Any doctor who practices obstetrics will confirm that the vast majority of babies are delivered at night. Consequently, the vast majority of emergencies are likely to arise at night.

I would accept that it is not possible to have in Bantry a maternity unit where there are two or three obstetricians and two children's doctors but the results in the smaller units compare favourably with those in the larger maternity hospitals. I have given the example of Cavan where the perinatal mortality rate is among the lowest in the country. I have pointed out what Dr. Henry had to say about the hospital in which he works, that is, the Rotunda. Of the 823 deliveries in the Bantry catchment area to which I have referred, 191 were in Bantry.

In a letter sent on the direction of the Minister for Health to the Southern Health Board in July this year it was stated that the development of a consultant obstetric unit at Bantry would not have attracted more than 300 deliveries per year. However, the Ceann Comhairle as well as the rest of us from his constituency will recall that the same was said in respect of Cavan in 1973 but after the appointment there of an obstetrician the number of deliveries at the unit increased from 500 to more than 1,100, despite there being a decrease in the birth rate in the country as a whole. That, then, is an indication that if an obstetrician is appointed in an area and there is created a good consultant service, the numbers of women availing of that service will increase. There is no reason why there could not be a viable unit at Bantry with, perhaps in a short space of time, the necessity to appoint a second obstetrician. This would be the ideal rather than having one man working in isolation.

In the middle of the last century a leading obstetrician in the UK, Robert Lee, wished to close all maternity hospitals. In the centenary issue of the Practitioner Journal, 1966, he is quoted as saying that it becomes a subject deserving of most serious consideration on the grounds of humanity whether lying-in hospitals should not be abolished altogether as injurious rather than beneficial to society. I am sure everybody here will agree that it was very fortunate that the administrators of the time did not take him too seriously; otherwise, not many of us might be here today.

It is interesting to note that in Ireland in the eight years between 1968 and 1976, two opposite opinions were put forward by very eminent bodies. I refer to the recommendation of An Comhairle that in order to make a maternity unit viable, there would need to be 1,500 deliveries at the unit per annum. The FitzGerald Committee in their report expressed themselves as being satisfied with retaining maternity units not only in county hospitals but in district hospitals. They suggested that the name of district hospitals should be changed to district nursing homes but they reported about keeping the maternity facilities at such places. These two eminent advisery bodies have expressed conflicting views in the past ten years in relation to maternity services. The lesson is that we should move slowly in any programme of rationalisation in the context of discontinuing the smaller units. Dr. Courtney in his combined report for the years 1975 to 1982 had the following to say about the importance of an obstetric unit in a rural community:

Many parameters have been put forward to assess the value of various services to the community. In obstetrics assessment has been based on the number of deliveries in a specific institution or hospital, though this criterion has not been uniform. This is a crude method of assessment. It is clear that the proximity of a consultant to a given area provides significant advantages.

It means that a wide range of doctors have immediate advice available to them, which will help to improve maternal care and neonatal health. Running clinics from a distance has been both useful and necessary in the past but it is more effective clinically to bring obstetrics to the rural areas, quite apart from the cost of travel, the inconvenience and the effect on community life. A rural hospital without obstetrics ceases to be a focal point in the community and the argument that a small unit cannot function effectively is disproven.

Not alone are there good medical reasons for developing an obstretical unit in Bantry, there are other good reasons for having such a service. It is necessary to appreciate all the human, emotional factors involved in childbirth. In a smaller unit nearer to home all these aspects of having a baby can be more comfortably accommodated than in a big hospital. When one considers the human, social and economic factors involved in perhaps travelling to Cork City from Bantry one can see another reason for the re-opening of the maternity unit in Bantry General Hospital.

It must be remembered also that some women may have to remain in hospital for a number of weeks prior to having their babies delivered. It is essential to their well-being that they have frequent visits from their husbands and young children, if they have any. Obviously, while we must be concerned primarly with the high level of medical care, having regard to the geography of the area about which we are speaking, I do not think anybody would doubt that, when one considers the risk of the long distance to be travelled and not having a maternity service available — when one considers that against having a baby in a smaller unit, with an obstetrician appointed — medically one can be satisfied that the smaller unit, in an area such as south-west Cork has the advantage. When one accepts that medically there is an advantage then one examines other aspects of the case.

From the social viewpoint certainly one must consider and examine the problem of a woman who is, say, six months pregnant, having to go to Cork hospital and remain there for the remaining three months. One must consider the effect of that on herself, having regard to the emotional state of women during pregnancy, and, secondly, the effect on her husband and other young children, if any. One must consider also the difficulties involved for relatives travelling that distance. If such a woman were in Bantry — even from a distance of 40 or 50 miles out — her husband could visit her twice or three times a week but it would be impossible to make visits of that frequency if she were in Cork city hospital. It is unreasonable for anybody to believe that the needs of such women and their families can be catered for within the distance we have been speaking about, with a hospital situated over 100 miles, in many instances, from their homes.

The Minister and the Government are responsible for the decision not to develop an obstetric gynaecological unit in Bantry hospital. Although this Government have not been in power a year yet it is extraordinary that their main targets for closure have been maternity hospitals. There is the instance in my county of Monaghan where the Minister wrote to the health board, telling them that he would not sanction the signing of the contract for Cavan hospital——

I think we agreed some time ago that discussion of that hospital was not in order at this time having regard to the fact that it is sub judice.

I do not think the short reference I am making to it will prejudice the decision of the court. In the context of this debate it is necessary to point out that it seems to be maternity units particularly that are the targets for closure.

I did not rule out a passing reference like that but, once one starts getting into correspondence——

I was merely pointing out that the Minister had asked the board to close the hospital in Monaghan and dispose of it before he would sign the contract for Cavan hospital. I shall not say any more about that. The Minister also pointed out to the health board, when he invited them to Dublin for, I think, the third time during the summer months, that there would be three maternity units only in the North-Eastern Health Board area, one in Navan, one in Cavan and one in Drogheda.

The Deputy is getting very far away from Bantry.

Yes, but the point I am developing is the Minister's general policy. I cannot understand why it seems to be maternity hospitals he always wants to close in terms of rationalisation. However, the Southern Health Board never took a decision to close the obstetrical department in Bantry hospital and, on any occasion on which the issue was discussed, the health board never decided that the unit should be closed. In fact on a number of occasions in 1982 they wrote to the Minister asking him for finance to develop the maternity unit in Bantry. There was not the crisis now obtaining back in 1982. Since the beginning of this year, when the physician there got ill suddenly, a crisis arose, when there was nobody to carry out the maternity services and the unit was closed. In a letter to the members of the board on 29 April 1983 the chief executive officer stated:

the current problem in regard to the operation of the obstetrical department of the General Hospital, Bantry is, contrary to the general belief, not related to either financial cutbacks or the current recession.

Therefore it appears that it was due entirely to the fact that the Minister would not sanction the reopening of the unit for the benefit of the people of the area. Since the unit was closed there have been 19 deliveries in Bantry hospital, three of which I understand were emergencies. I want to ask the Minister which consultant in Bantry was asked to take responsibility for those deliveries. The country physician was out sick for a lot of that time, his locum was not a qualified obstetrician; the county surgeon — while he could do the gynaecology and the operative procedures — I am sure would not take on the obstetrics. It appears to me that the health boards have been placed in an extremely difficult situation having regard to their statutory and legal positions in that they must accept responsibility for adequate consultant cover to ensure that if there are deliveries in the hospital there will be a consultant to look after them. I should like to know what arrangements existed there for those 19 deliveries since February this year.

In his whole attitude to maternity services I would accuse the Minister of discriminating against women because of the point I made earlier, that to date the main announcements of hospital changes have been the closures of obstetrical and gynaecological units in Monaghan, Dundalk and the refusal to reopen Bantry. Not alone are the women being deprived of a maternity service, they are also being deprived of a gynaecological service to deal with a number of diseases specific to women. They had this service in Bantry and, presumably, they will continue to have it as long as the present county surgeon is there but, when he retires, who will then offer a gynaecological service to the women of south-west Cork? Will they also have to travel the long distance into Cork city? The Minister in this instance is discriminating against women and surely the women of south-west Cork are entitled to exactly the same facilities as the women in any other part of the country? Indeed I do not think women in any other part of the country would be asked to travel the distances that women are being asked to travel in this instance. There is no consideration for the impact on family life, the anxiety of being so far away and the difficulties which families have in visiting them.

I appeal to the Minister to reconsider his attitude in relation to the closure of Bantry and to reverse his decision. He should also reconsider his decision to close Monaghan and Dundalk maternity units and, in each instance, to respect the opinion of the relevant health board. The Southern Health Board have stated very clearly in letters from the CEO to members of the board that the Southern Health Board never decided to close Bantry hospital maternity unit and the same can be said of the North-Eastern Health Board in relation to the other two hospitals. The opinions of the health boards should be considered because the health boards are made up of elected representatives and representatives of various professions, many of whom would be involved in the delivery of obstetric cases. These people have decided that the unit should be kept in Bantry general hospital and the Minister should respect their decision.

While the main development of health in the future must be the promotion of good health, the prevention of disease, the promotion of health care rehabilitation and the avoidance of risk, the area I believe we must all address ourselves to is the accessibility of services. The level of health care service offered here compares favourably with anywhere else in Europe. However, we must give some attention to the accessibility of services which is of critical importance. This problem is seen at its greatest in remote and inner city areas. Very often people who are in bad circumstances and suffering from poor nutrition are worst affected.

In rural areas, services are often inaccessible because of difficulties in travel, whereas in the inner cities the biggest difficulty appears to be in communication. People are unaware of the services to which they are entitled or, even if they are aware of them, they do not know how to avail of them. This is an area to which the Minister, the Department and all public representatives should address themselves. If the Minister were to turn his attention to this aspect of health care, in the longer term it would be more cost-effective than to be closing down maternity units and leaving people to travel distances of up to 100 miles. The motion tonight is specifically about Bantry Hospital and the health board have backed the re-opening and the retention of the maternity unit there. They want to develop a proper obstetrical service there. There are very good reasons why that should be done. As I said, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, before you came in, women are going to be asked to travel the distance from Nenagh to Dublin for maternity services. I know what your reaction would be if somebody told you that in future the women of Nenagh would have to avail of maternity services only in Dublin.

There is a very big catchment area in south-west Cork, there is a high population of over 50,000, well above the average for a consultant obstetrician. There are human and medical factors which are important once we are satisfied that the medical factor is satisfactory. There are over 800 births annually in the region and it is understandable, when there is no obstetrician and obstetric unit, that women feel, perhaps wrongly, that the service is not as good as it might be. Nevertheless, women like to be delivered of their babies where there is an obstetrician and an obstetric service. I have no doubt that if the Minister were to appoint an obstetrician there, he would find, similar to the situation in Cavan, that the number of deliveries would increase and that perhaps in the future it would be possible to appoint a second obstetrician and to have a major obstetrical service in Bantry.

I ask the Minister to reconsider his decision. South-west Cork is possibly unique in Europe in having such a large area without any maternity service. I appeal to the Minister to consider the various points raised, to write to the Southern Health Board telling them to re-open the maternity unit, to advertise for a locum obstetrician in the short-term and to make arrangements to ask An Chomhairle to recommend the appointment of a permanent obstetrician.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and insert:

"endorses the action of the Minister for Health in not agreeing to the establishment of a consultant staffed obstetrical unit at Bantry Hospital and in seeking to ensure that the Southern Health Board make provision for scheduled consultant obstetrical ante and post natal clinics at the hospital and for coping with any maternity emergencies which may arise."

I welcome the opportunity of placing on the record of this House, the facts concerning maternity services at Bantry General Hospital. I welcome the opportunity of counter-balancing in a very necessary way the unfounded allegations and, I suggest, misrepresentations which have been recklessly bandied about in the hospital for a number of months now and which have resulted only in sowing needless fears among the population affected, more particularly among mothers in the area. I reject that. I am surprised that members of the medical profession such as my colleague, Deputy O'Hanlon, should suggest on such evidence that I as a matter of policy am closing small maternity units around the country or that I as a matter of policy am discriminating against women. I remind the Deputy in relation to his own health board area that one maternity unit, namely Trim, has been closed, and I am sure the Deputy will agree that it was closed on sound medical advice on the grounds that it was not safe for women to have their children in that unit. As a consequence——

I accept that, but it is not at a general hospital.

The Deputy mentioned a number of areas and in that regard I had a recommendation from the health board of which he is a member, namely, the North Eastern Health Board, that I should close Trim maternity unit. I closed it, and there is not a GP or a consultant in the area who would not agree with that decision of the health board which I endorsed and implemented. Likewise the only other one closed in the country is Dungarvan, closed by the South Eastern Health Board, and, incidentally, closed on the casting vote of the Fianna Fáil chairman of the health board, Mr. Murphy, a sensible man. There were 13 votes for and 13 against and he voted in favour.

Again, it is not at a general hospital.

The maternity unit in Dungarvan was closed on the recommendation of the health board and I implemented the recommendation.

(Interruptions.)

If I may give the facts, then the Deputies here may all speak. I have not proposed the closure of Dundalk maternity unit. I never proposed it. What I said, and what I repeat here tonight, is that I could not agree to having based in Dundalk exclusively for Dundalk hospital a consultant-staffed unit.

The Minister said that there would be only three units in the North Eastern Health Board.

If I may finish, because the Deputy will have the right of reply later tomorrow night. I want to return to the subject of Bantry General Hospital and I will finish by dealing with the broad allegations that have been made. I have not said at any stage that I intended to diminish the maternity services in the Cavan-Monaghan area. What I said very clearly is that if the new hospital in Cavan is to have a number of obstetric beds which have been tabulated, a number of beds for gynaecology, a number of beds for paediatrics, then for the catchment area of Cavan and Monaghan only that number of beds would suffice for the totality of the area and there would be no logic in having maternity beds in the Monaghan hospital. I have said that to the board and I reiterate that statement.

The Minister said four——

Deputy O'Hanlon, please allow the Minister to continue without interruption. Nobody interrupted you.

Therefore, looking back over my first 12 months I want to reiterate that whether it be Waterford, Cavan-Monaghan or County Meath. I have not discriminated or attempted to discriminate against women. It has been part of a general hospital situation. For example, I have received a unanimous recommendation from the Midland Health Board, including Fianna Fáil members on the board, that we should close the surgical hospital in Longford. That will be done in due course. In Dublin, again with absolute unanimity from the medical profession, from paediatric consultants, from everybody involved including the board of the hospital, I have closed St. Ultan's Hospital. Lest one might think that I am discriminating down the country I emphasise that that is in Dublin. Mercer's Hospital in Dublin has closed. A great deal has been happening and in a corrective way because, above all, I have not adopted what I call the "born again hospital promises" policy of the Opposition party that it does not matter what hospital, what county, district hospitals, general hospitals, psychiatric hospitals, maternity hospitals, all that has to happen — as happened last week——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Ormonde will have his own opportunity later.

——is for some deputation to walk in to the party opposite and say "We want this, we want that, regarding hospital development" and automatically it is conceded whether the case is justified or not, as we see here this evening. I am shocked that an eminent person such as Deputy O'Hanlon should walk in here and say in regard to Comhairle na nOspidéal, the statutory body for the appointment of consultants throughout this country in the specialities of obstetrics, gynaecology and paediatrics that the guidelines of 1,500 to 2,000 births no longer exist as far as his party are concerned. In fact he said a few minutes ago that the guideline of 1,500 even does not exist. Where do we go from there? One must beg the question; what is their policy? I do not know, but I want to get back to the subject of Bantry and I have taken long enough in dealing with the points raised here this evening by the Fianna Fáil Party spokespersons on a very emotional issue where anybody can inflame local opinion and create fears needlessly.

Up to the beginning of 1983, the obstetric unit at Bantry General Hospital was the responsibility of the county physician in the hospital. In terms of present-day organisation of services, this situation was rather unique. While being unique, there can be no suggestion that the level of service provided by the county physician has over the years been anything but of the highest order. I am sure the Government and Opposition would pay that tribute to the county physician. In February of this year, because of the absence through illness of the county physician, it was necessary to close the obstetric unit in the hospital. Arising from that closure, I received a proposal from the Southern Health Board that I should agree to the appointment of an obstetrician/gynaecologist to Bantry General Hospital. I would put it on record that there never has been a consultant appointment in the history of Bantry General Hospital. Let us be clear about that because an enormous amount of propaganda is put out about that situation. My Cork memory suggests that former Deputy Tom O'Higgins, at present Chief Justice, worked in that hospital.

As far back as 1970 the Cork Health Authority — the predecessor of the Southern Health Board — submitted a proposal to the Department of Health for the appointment of an obstetrician/Gynaecologist at the hospital. This was pursued with the Department in the succeeding years and the Deputy's Party were in power then and in 1972 when his Party were in office the Department informed the Southern Health Board that they were not prepared to approve the proposal. Comhairle na nOspidéal, to whom the proposal had also been referred, indicated that they, too, did not approve of the creation of the post. I see an eminent member of the comhairle here tonight who is relatively youthful and was not a member then, but our medical colleague on the back benches will be well aware of the background.

When the health board requested my approval to the appointment of an obstetrician — gynaecologist in May of this year, I carried out a most comprehensive examination of all the factors involved. In considering this situation, I was conscious of the fact that perhaps, of all medical specialities, obstetric services, because of their nature, and the many issues involved including some of the emotional implications raised this evening, require the most sensitive approach in arriving at any decision. My approach was to consider the problem solely from the point of view of how the best possible obstetric service could be provided for the women of the area. That, we would all agree, is a fundamental issue — not scoring party political points against a Deputy or trying to embarrass somebody in the House on the issue.

The requirements of an obstetric service have been examined in great detail in recent years. Consequently, I had available to me a substantial body of advice on the matter. This advice was unanimous, I stress, in its recommendations that the well-being of both mother and baby is best assured when the birth takes place in a unit staffed by consultant obstetrician — gynaecologists backed by the immediate availability of a paediatrician experienced in neo-natology. It would be of use to Deputies and indeed to the many other concerned people around the country, if I quoted some relevant sections of this advice.

For instance, in the 1976 document produced by Comhairle na nOspidéal on the development of hospital maternity services, it is emphatically stated:

"If the basic aims of ensuring safe delivery and giving the infant the best chance of optimal health and normal development are to be achieved, every expectant mother should have ready access to care at a consultant-staffed obstetric-neo-natal unit".

Surely no one in this House can argue against these basic aims.

Not if they live a hundred miles away.

In the same document it is also stated:

An individual is probably at greater risk during the first week of life than at any other period up to the age of forty. Once the first week has been safely passed, his requirements in relation to medical care are greatly reduced. In fact, the situation has been reached in recent times where the needs of the infant, as much as those of the mother, dictate the circumstances in which deliveries occur. It follows that no obstetric unit can function effectively without its complementary neo-natal paediatric service. Thus, in the modern maternity service, obstetricians and paediatricians must function as complementary medical teams. There is good reason to believe that there are individual suffering from physical or mental handicap which might have been avoidable had they been delivered in the circumstances (quoted already) rather than in less favourable conditions which prevailed when they were born.

These strong arguments were further emphasised in the comhairle's document on the development of hospital paediatric services published in 1979. It is relevant to quote finally from the submission of the Irish Paediatric Association to the comhairle when it was preparing the document. The association stated:

The situation in rural areas is worsened by the demands of distance and the misconception that social conveniences in terms of small units close to home outweighs the advantages of delivery in a hospital with full neo-natal services. Such small units can never, in our economy, be properly staffed. The lessons of other developed countries in terms of neo-natal morbidity have yet to be learnt by many in the medical profession in this country.

I fully accept that advice on the basis that it obviously affords the best safeguards for mothers and the best care for the new-born infants. Particularly I was concerned about the care of the new-born infants, I have no hesitation in recommending and agreeing to the organisation of services which can contribute to the elimination of circumstances which could contribute to, for example, the development of mental handicap. Not just to those who are intimately involved in the controversy concerning Bantry hospital, but also to those involved in similar campaigns throughout the country, I say that I am not prepared, and never will be prepared, to sacrifice what I believe to be the best services for mothers and children for the transient kudos that might be associated with glib and party political agreement to pressures for the continuation or development of services about which I have the most serious reservations. I intend to apply that principle for whatever duration I shall be in this office, not just to west Cork which I know intimately, but to the country as a whole. It is quite clear from the evidence I have given that the establishment of such consultant-staffed units have to be carefully considered for a number of reasons.

One other very important reason, as anybody who has worked in a major or a relatively large hospital will agree is that it is most important that such a unit should not be grossly under-utilised. I challenge anybody to suggest that in Bantry there would be more than, at the most optimistic, about six children born in any one week, averaging about 300 per annum. At the moment the number is between 180 and 190. The figure of 800 has been mentioned by Deputy O'Hanlon but I would point out that in the Dunmanway-Drimoleague area, for example, 37 to 45 miles from Cork city, out of the 142 children born there, which is supposed to be the catchment area of Bantry — which I believe to be a load of nonsense — 104 were born in Cork city. Women like to vote with their feet. When it comes to having their babies, they know where to go. They go to a hospital which will have consultant-staffed, expert services available to them. Likewise in the Clonakilty area, which is 32 miles from Cork city, 180 children are assigned as having been born and of these 179 were born in Cork city, with one born in Bantry — and that was last year. The total number of children assigned as having been born to these areas is 324 all within, at the very maximum a 45 miles radius. Out of that number of children 283 were born in Cork city. One would have to start deducting those, first of all, from the magical figure of 800.

Why should they go where there are no facilities?

Deputy Ormonde will have time enough to contribute, I have no doubt. I want to put these facts right.

Where else could they go? The hospitals have no facilities.

It is a pity that they were not there 22 years ago. That is the mistake that was made. If it has not been made, we would not be having this debate tonight.

There was a service there six months ago.

These are the facts which I have to put before the House and these are some of the basic considerations which I took into account when arriving at a decision. The basic statistics in relation to the area are, of course, that the catchment area of Bantry general hospital has a population of about 55,000. In 1982 the total number of births assigned to mothers for the whole of the catchment area was 823 — I have already referred to 324 of them — of which 191 took place in the maternity unit of Bantry general hospital. There is no evidence to suggest that for the foreseeable future the number of births in the area would be much in excess of that number. That whole area includes Bantry, Casteltownbere, Clonakilty, Dunmanway, Drimoleague, Skibbereen, Schull, Goleen and Ballydehob. I assure the Deputies that the vast majority of births take place in Cork. Last year 533 out of the 800 mothers had their children in Cork city. We middle-aged politicians play politics with mothers having their children. That is what we are doing for narrow political gain. I am concerned about the 533 mothers who came to Cork city in 1982 and had their children in fully serviced consultant units.

I am shocked that Deputy O'Hanlon should suggest a locum consultant. As a member of An Comhairle Deputy Ormonde would be aghast to hear that type of thing. If you appoint a consultant into an area, what do you expect him to do in this day and age as a member of the medical union? Work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year? The days of single handed consultants are gone. You have to appoint two. As the Deputy knows, most of them will tell you to hump off. They have to go on holiday. They get sick. They need weekends off. When I appoint a consultant, I appoint him on a common contract 33½ hour week. Therefore we need two, and none of this nonsense about single handed consultants working in isolation in hospitals. That day is over. That is another reason why this type of utility proposition cannot be accepted.

I have informed the Southern Health Board that there are problems in Bantry. I do not deny that. There are problems of distance for some of the mothers. I accept that the road network is not particularly good in the area. I also accept that we have to make arrangements for the area. I have informed the Southern Health Board that I could not agree to the development of a consultant staffed obstetric unit at Bantry general hospital. I do not believe I could find a consultant who would be prepared to live in Bantry. As far back as 19 October An Comhairle sent a letter to the health board saying they would not agree to the suggestion. I could not expect any consultant to live in Bantry and supervise the delivery of five or six children a week at maximum.

How would one operate on a paediatric basis apart from anything else? I have informed the Southern Health Board that we must ensure that we make regular provision for scheduled consultant obstetric out-patient clinics at Bantry hospital. I have asked the board to make arrangements to cope with any maternity emergency which may arise.

I want to deal with attempts to drag the circumstances of the unfortunate deaths of two infants into the campaign since the unit closed. That reflects very poorly on those involved. Lest there be any unnecessary fears on that score, I want to state clearly that these deaths cannot be attributed to the facilities or expertise available in Bantry general hospital or any other hospital in the health board area. I have had the most detailed investigation carried out in my Department and at health board level into these two infant deaths. The population of the area can rest assured in that regard. I deplore the hysteria which has been generated. I am making those arrangements with the Southern Health Board in relation to scheduled consultant obstetric out-patient clinics at Bantry hospital. It is of interest to note that these out-patient consultant services did not exist to that extent in terms of the formal arrangement now proposed for the Bantry area.

I do not profess to have any particular medical knowledge. I am the father of four children and I recall that my wife made three or four hospital visits on a prenatal and an antenatal basis. As Deputies will agree prenatal care is of critical importance. These consultants attending in Bantry on a regular basis will provide effective antenatal care for expectant mothers, a service which does not exist at the moment in that area.

Last Friday night I attended a medical union conference. I spoke to many members of the union from Munster, both consultants and general practitioners. Not one of them criticised my decision. They were representative of all political parties. They all said it was a terrible shame that, for narrow political gain, politicians in Leinster House were creating this stir.

I have received very detailed submissions from the three Deputies in the constituency. I want to pay credit to Deputy Walsh, Deputy Sheehan and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, and also my colleague in the adjoining constituency, Deputy Creed. They have made calm, rational and understandable representations to me. They have not played politics. For political gain some local interests are forcing the hands of Deputies. I have spoken to the professional staff of the Southern Health Board and privately to members of the health board in the area and they all agree with my decision. They believe it is the sane and sensible thing to do.

We will develop effective maternity out-patient services for the hospital, and I will keep a very close watch on the situation. I will make arrangements for emergencies which may arise. In any health board area an emergency may arise. For example, a woman in Arklow who has to travel 50 miles to Dublin to attend the maternity hospital in Loughlinstown or in the Coombe may have to face an emergency, or a woman living in Cabra may face a maternity emergency and may not reach hospital in time to have the matter dealt with despite the best efforts of everybody. Emergencies will arise. Thank God 90 per cent of mothers have no problems. With effective antenatal care and consultancy services, these emergencies will be anticipated as far as is humanly possible and dealt with effectively.

Now that I have had an opportunity to outline the circumstances to Deputies, we should continue this debate in a calm atmosphere. We should make the necessary arrangements for a proper maternity service in the area. I will do that. Despite the extreme difficulties facing me as Minister for Health, I will endeavour to ensure that we have an effective health service. The problem is compounded by a plethora of promises. We have yet to deal with the question of Carlow. I am surprised it was not mentioned tonight. That is another promise which was made and which would cost another £500,000.

Perhaps this debate has cleared the air. I welcome the observations made by Deputy Ormonde who is a member of An Comhairle. We can achieve a unity of purpose if we leave narrow party political gain out of it in this Chamber. Our job is to look after the women of Ireland, their infants and their problems. Politics come second to that.

I support the case for the retention and maintenance of the obstetric unit in Bantry hospital. This crisis has not been precipitated by political expediency, as the Minister tried to suggest; it was precipitated by the unfortunate illness of Dr. McCoy. I want to pay tribute to Dr. McCoy for the excellent and outstanding work he has done for a number of years in Bantry hospital. I live in the west Cork area and to my knowledge there has been no political opportunism so far as this very critical matter is concerned.

In support of the case for the retention of this unit in Bantry I would like to point out that there were 823 births in the area last year. If we take a conservative figure, 500 or 600 of those births would have been in Bantry hospital if the maternity facilities had been provided there. In that case the expenditure incurred would be justified. As the Minister pointed out, there is a catchment area of 55,000 people in west Cork and, thankfully, that figure is increasing. In the summertime the population doubles, because west Cork is a very beautiful area and many people visit it during their summer holidays. The Minister and his Minister of State, with their backgrounds in west Cork, should realise that the hospital unit has to cater for a doubling of the population for perhaps three months of the year and that should be taken into account.

What makes Bantry unique is the distance from the nearest maternity facilities. Bantry is almost 60 miles from Cork city, which provides the nearest facility and there are at least four peninsulas, the Sneem Peninsula in Kerry, Bere Peninsula, Kilcrohane and the Mizen Peninsula. This shows we are not talking about an isolated headland but a vast area. We must also take into account the islands off the coast. Expectant mothers have to travel long journeys to Cork city now that the Minister has decided to turn down the request to have this facility reopened and maintained. I ask the Minister to consider those who have to travel in the winter months, perhaps a concerned husband trying to take his wife to Cork city trying to get through Healy Pass, the Pass of Keimaneigh, the Goats Pass, just to mention a few of the difficult passes and mountainous areas these people have to travel to get to Cork city. On humanitarian grounds alone I ask the Minister to give this matter further consideration. Some of my colleagues are members of Comhairle na Ospidéal, but while they take into account only the medical factors involved in this issue, the human factors should outweigh all other considerations. Again, I ask the Minister to take them into account.

This difficult terrain has been recognised by a number of Government Departments and has been given special consideration by people as far away as Brussels. West Cork has been designated a severely handicapped area and in the directives the people in Brussels have allowed higher rates of grants and have given better rates of development grants for the west Cork area. If it was possible to have west Cork designated as a special area for agricultural purposes, I cannot see why the Department of Health cannot consider it a special area too. It can be said that no other part of Ireland suffers the same remoteness and has the same problems, with low density of population, a very low number of telephones per household, a small number of cars per household and a high number of medical card holders. A recent figure suggested that up to 60 per cent of the families in that area are in possession of medical cards. Medical card holders deserve as good facilities in their local areas as the more fortunate people in the urban and built-up areas.

I ask the Minister to take into account the distance people have to travel, not just from one area but from several areas. Not alone has that distance to be travelled by the mother but in some cases she has to spend quite some time in the hospital before the birth. This can cause a certain amount of suffering because the husband, or father, and his young children live enormous distances in time and miles from the wife or mother. That is not good for the mother's health. Not only economics should be taken into account when making a local service available to the people, and especially the mothers, in the west Cork area. We must also take into account the dangers of a long journey to Cork city. We are a great people for doing things after the event, but I would like to warn the Minister that sooner or later there will be a tragedy because of the lack of this service in Bantry.

The original report of Comhairle na nOspidéal issued in 1976 and a discussion document issued in 1979. At that time there were various agencies and bodies thinking big. At that time the Mansholt plan was produced for agriculture and farmers were told that unless they had 100 acres or more they would not have a viable holding. The IDA for a few years after that spent millions of pounds trying to attract super industries here but at the end of the day we have more people unemployed than the total employed in those large industries. The IDA have come to the conclusion that big is no longer beautiful and that the small compact industry is better. In fact, small industries are being promoted by that body today. The bureaucrats in Brussels have come to the same conclusion and I have no doubt that the new farm package will promote the smaller units.

I have no doubt that in due course Comhairle na nOspidéal and the planners in the Department of Health will reach a similar conclusion, that we should not have all the service in palatial buildings in Dublin, Cork and other major centres of population and leave remote areas without any facilities.

I appeal to my colleagues, Deputies Jim O'Keeffe and Sheehan, to support this motion and continue their efforts to have this facility retained in Bantry hospital. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider his decision. He should bear in mind the anxiety of women living in remote areas who when they go into labour must travel long distances to a maternity unit. The Minister must reflect on the anxieties of pregnant women in west Cork now that the maternity facilities have been discontinued at Bantry hospital. The Bantry area is unique because of its location, the low density of population and the lack of proper communications. It deserves to be given sympathetic treatment and economic expediency should not take precedence over the care of patients.

I am pleased to be given an opportunity to speak on this motion. Of paramount importance in this debate must be the health of mothers and children. The Minister and the Department when making decisions must give priority to mothers and children and that does not appear to be the reasoning of the Opposition side. The Opposition are solely concerned with political expediency and that is to be regretted particularly when the motion is moved by a Member who is a medical practitioner. The best facilities must be made available for all our people. The fact that people live in remote areas should not mean that they should be asked to accept anything less than the best. The Opposition in their efforts are asking the people of the area to accept a second-class service. They will not admit that because it is not in their political interests to do so. If we put mothers and children in second place to political interests we are in serious trouble.

Bantry had a first class physician, one of the traditional type medical practitioners who was so conscientious that he ran himself into bad health. Such people are no longer in practice and we now have in the medical profession highly specialised people in the areas of obstetrics, gynaecology and paediatrics. If mothers are to be given the best treatment they must be permitted to avail of the services in the larger hospitals. To ask them to accept anything less is to put them at risk. Deputy O'Hanlon told the House that 95 per cent of births were all right and 5 per cent would be at risk. I should like to know who the Deputy is prepared to put at risk. I do not think there should be any question of putting a percentage of people at risk. People must be permitted to avail of the best services.

I accept that there is some validity in the argument about distances but that must be weighed against whether it is better to have a limited maternity service or a full service such as is available at the larger hospitals. The figures for the area give a clear indication of what the position is. Of the 823 births in the area 191 were delivered in Bantry. Of the 180 births in Clonakilty 179 were delivered in Cork. In my view, mothers went to Cork because they knew they would get the best service and that the expertise would be available if any difficulties arose. I do not think such services would be available if we adopted the Fianna Fáil suggestion. If the Fianna Fáil view were accepted children would be put at risk. Of the births in Skibbereen 75 were delivered in Cork city and 14 in Bantry. With regard to the areas of Skull, Goleen and Ballydehob districts 11 births took place in Bantry and 17 in Cork. From those statistics Members can see that we are not imposing anything on those people. We are simply adhering to the wishes of the people whose choice is to go to Cork City. In the catchment area 533 deliveries took place in Cork City as against 191 in Bantry. Those figures are a damning indictment of the case being put forward by Fianna Fáil.

I wonder if Deputy Sheehan agrees with the Minister of State?

What about the opinion of the health board?

It is not a question of whether Deputies Jim O'Keeffe or Sheehan agree with me; the women having the children are the people who matter.

Deputy Sheehan is blushing behind the Minister.

What about the opinion of the Southern Health Board?

The people who matter are the patients.

(Interruptions.)

I will not comment on what Deputy Molloy said other than to point out that people have a choice. They choose to go to Cork because they know that their children will have a better chance.

Debate adjourned.
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