asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware that, where costs are sought, Circuit Court judges invariably sanction and apply the Bar Council scale of counsels' fees which are considerably in excess of the statutory fees approved by Ministers; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Legal Costs.
15.
Limerick East): The system for the control of barristers' fees in those cases to which the question relates is that the scales of fees are prescribed in Rules of Court made by the Circuit Court Rules Committee. The rules are then submitted to the Minister for Justice whose concurrence is required before the rules become effective. The Minister may either concur or refuse to concur in their making, but he is not entitled to modify them.
The present statutory scales of barristers' fees were set in 1967. The scales are now out of date and do not take account of increases in the jurisdiction limits of the District and Circuit Courts which took effect in 1972 and again in 1982. The result is that there are no fees prescribed for certain cases, for example, contract and tort cases for sums between £600 and £15,000. However, the Circuit Court has discretion to measure costs in any particular case where no appropriate scale exists and I understand that in doing so the judges have regard to the scales recommended by the Bar Council. While this is not an arrangement that I can accept as satisfactory, it will be seen that it does not involve the charging of fees in excess of the statutory fees because there are, in fact, no relevant statutory fees.
Following formal requests made by my Department, the Circuit Court Rules Committee submitted, towards the end of 1982, new rules containing scales of solicitors' costs as well as barristers' fees. I refused to concur in the making of those rules because, for one thing, the scales proposed were in my view excessive. My Department have been in correspondence with the committee on the question of their submitting revised rules which would be appropriate for my concurrence but no such rules have since been submitted. I am now considering the further action I should take to deal with the situation created by the absence of statutory scales for these fees and costs.
Were the fees which were suggested to the Minister by the review committee, or whatever, the same as the Bar Council fees, or were they in excess of those fees? Does the Minister propose to take unilateral action in fixing these fees for the future?
(Limerick East): I refused to concur with the making of the rules because the scales submitted to me were excessive. These are the scales which are being applied now by judges while there are no statutory scales available. On the Deputy's second point, I do not intend for the moment to take unilateral action. I am considering what further action I should take to deal with the situation created by the absence of statutory scales for these fees.
If the fees being charged are excessive, as the Minister said, and if the Bar Council, or whatever body are responsible for coming back again with agreed fees, are failing to do so, does the Minister not feel it is his duty to ensure that State money is not being spent in this way by the setting of excessive fees, and that it should be done unilaterally if they do not come forward with agreed fees very quickly?
(Limerick East): It is certainly a matter for concern. The statutory scales of barristers' fees were set in 1967. Because of increased jurisdiction which took effect in the courts in 1972 and again in 1982 there are particular cases for which there are no fees prescribed. Consequently, it is not that people are getting fees in excess of statutory scales; it is a question of fees being assigned by the courts where no statutory scales apply. I take the point the Deputy is making. I am very anxious that this matter should be sorted out. I refused to concur with the making of the rules because I thought the scales were excessive. I may either concur or refuse to concur, but I am not entitled to modify the scales which come before me.
It seems extraordinary that the courts can set fees which, in the Minister's view, are excessive and yet he is not in a position to set fees which would not be excessive in view of the fact that State funds are involved. Does he propose to take any steps to ensure that he has the power to set these fees, or to change them when they are presented to him?
(Limerick East): At the moment agreement has been reached on scales of solicitors' fees. The matter of barristers' fees in these cases is outstanding. My Department have been in correspondence with the committee with a view to their submitting a different scale of fees with which I could concur.