asked the Taoiseach if emigration has re-started on a wide scale in Ireland; and the most recent statistics available on the subject over the past 12 months.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Emigration Statistics.
1.
Dún Laoghaire): Direct information on actual migration flows, outwards and inwards, is not available. The only reliable estimates of migration flows are those for net migration between successive censuses of population. The estimates for these periods are obtained by relating intercensal population changes to data for births and deaths in the same period. In this way it was estimated that for the two-year intercensal period April 1979-April 1981 outward migration exceeded inward migration by 5,000.
For later periods only very tentative estimates can be made based on provisional population estimates. The provisional mid-April 1983 population estimate, the latest available, is 65,000 above the 1981 census figure. The natural increase—excess of births over deaths —in the same period was 76,000. Thus for April 1981-April 1983 it is tentatively estimated that outward migration exceeded inward migration by some 11,000.
I am sure the Minister of State will agree that this is a very unsatisfactory way of doing business and of finding out the statistics which are necessary for forward planning. I am sure he will accept that it must cause great concern to the Government and to the people that the scourge of emigration has returned at an alarming rate. Trends in recent months would indicate that there is a serious upsurge in emigration. Does he accept that this is a serious reflection on the total and abject failure of the Government to provide jobs for young people, not only for those who left school last year but for the 30,000 or so who will leave this year? They are left without hope.
This question relates only to statistics.
They see emigration as the only possible solution. Have the Government any solutions?
This is a statistical question dealing with statistical information.
If the Minister of State just gave statistics I would agree with the Chair but he went further than that. I ask the Minister of State to agree that the huge increase in emigration is a reflection on the total and abject failure of the Government.
I rule that question out of order in accordance with long-standing practice.
Am I not to get an answer from the Minister of State?
This question deals with statistics. The Deputy may put the information to another Minister.
I would agree that it is a statistical question if the Minister gave purely statistical information but he did not do so.
The Deputy should not argue with the Chair. There is another question, No. 324, on the Order Paper.
At the rate we are going we will not reach Question No. 324 until next October or November.
That is no fault of the Chair.
The people, particularly young people, are very concerned about the total and abject failure of the Government's policies. Emigration seems to be the only solution offered by the Government to the problem of ever-increasing unemployment.
The Deputy is totally out of order.
(Dún Laoghaire): I am only the stable lad. Somebody else rides the horse.
The Minister of State is getting fair protection.
The Minister said——
I would remind the Deputy that this question is purely a statistical one.
There is no need to remind me before I ask my question. The Minister of State said that direct information was not available. Is he aware that such direct information is available and all the Government have to do is consult the federation of Irish societies and the various Irish centres in Britain? They would indicate to the Minister, clearly and directly, that there is an ever-increasing flow of young people going to Britain. Will the Minister ask those responsible organisations to confirm the unfortunate matter that Deputy Reynolds brought up — that a flood of young people are emigrating from this country?
(Dún Laoghaire): We should not exaggerate.
At their annual meeting recently they spent a full day debating this serious problem.
A question, please, Deputy.
I should like the Minister to comment on that. I protest against a distortion which appeared in the Irish Independent yesterday.
Deputy O'Kennedy raised this matter in an orderly way with my office. It was pointed out that if everything that appeared in daily papers, or a fraction of it, was raised here for the purpose of contradicting it we would have nothing but chaos. It is not in order.
In following up this matter——
The Deputy will have to take it up with the newspaper concerned.
Any newspaper which prints "the Government should train Ireland's unemployed for emigration" as my opinion——
The Deputy is not in order.
It is a complete distortion. I did not say that but rather the direct opposite.
The Deputy is being disorderly.
Order is important but distortion that gives rise to cynicism is important also. There is a committee of the House——
I can understand the Deputy feeling strongly about this but he should not abuse the House.
It was a committee of the House which was fully reported.
In the past, other Deputies tried to raise matters such as what is being raised now. They were refused permission to do so and it would be most unfair to them if I make an exception now.
Will the Chair take up the reporting of committees of the House with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
I suggest to the Deputy that the Whip of his party take the matter up with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I accept that. Will the Minister of State reply to my supplementary question? I have indicated to him that direct information is available in respect of Britain. I am sure he could find similar information elsewhere.
(Dún Laoghaire): As an ex-Minister for Finance the Deputy will accept that statistics are supplied through the Central Statistics Office and that the information I gave was supplied by them. I have full respect for the institutions the Deputy mentioned in Britain. However, the number of bookings into institutions in Britain as a basis for compiling statistics such as those asked for in the question would not be very reliable. The Central Statistics Office have supplied us with accurate information and I am sure the Deputy will agree there is room for improving and updating those statistics but it would not be proper to base statistics on information supplied from various organisations or institutions abroad.
As the Minister of State said, we must rely on information from the Central Statistics Office which, on his own admission, does not extend beyond 1981. The rest is simply a guesstimate by the Minister of State. Does he agree that, in view of what is perceived to be an alarming increase in emigration, the Government should look for a more up-to-date analysis of these trends? Otherwise we will be only capable of dealing with what happened three years ago and not with what is happening today.
(Dún Laoghaire): We are doing that.
When can we expect the result?
(Dún Laoghaire): It is an on-going process.