I rise with no great joy to give support to this section as amended. Like Deputy Cosgrave, I find that the debate on this section and on the Bill to date has been extremely one-sided. People contributing here seem to come from a different world, a different city, a different country from what I represent. In this debate one would get the impression that the bulk of the community in our cities are living under a reign of terror from the Garda Síochána. I do not think that is anything like a true reflection of the situation. In my time as a public representative—which is relatively short; two or three years—I have received two formal complaints about the activities of the Garda Síochána and I have processed those complaints through the commissioner's office. On the other hand, at every public meeting, clinic and visit into pockets of my constituency and throughout every part of Dublin and, increasingly, throughout every part of Ireland, I have had continual complaints about the level of crime. Our newspapers are littered with increasingly horrifying stories.
It is in the context of my experience of dealing with problems of constituents and of my perception of what is happening in society that, like other Deputies, I accept reluctantly that we must face up to dealing with that problem. This Bill is part, but only a small part, of a response to the problem. My experience as a Deputy has resulted in my changing my views radically. While I would wish never to belong to the ‘hang'em-flog'em brigade,' I realise the need for a clear line in our approach of the problem of crime which perhaps together with the unemployment has altered radically the quality of life.
Debate in relation to section 3 has been conducted as though most of those who would be affected by the powers proposed are among the most inarticulate and defenceless in our society. My experience would indicate that we are dealing with hardened and vicious criminals or vandals who can hold a community to ransom, who can instil so much fear that people are afraid to name them for fear of what night happen to themselves, their children or their property. I say that again in sorrow because people who by the age of 20 or so have become hardened criminals have been done a great injustice. Their rights must be considered but that is a matter for other legislation. The Children Bill, for instance, will be relevant in that context. However, we must face the fact that in our cities particularly there are groups who form a small percentage of any community but who are involved in very serious offences. We need only think of two cases reported recently which related to youngsters of three or four being set ablaze by criminals. This is the type of viciousness that the Garda are facing. The powers we propose giving the Garda by way of this section are necessary because the people who perpetrate such crimes are of the type the Garda must deal with on a regular basis. The hardened criminal has become an expert in the law, in the production of alibis, in avoiding detection and so on. I am satisfied of the necessity for the Garda to have powers of investigation and detention in a situation where it would not be possible to invent, develop or produce alibis or to cover up relevant material facts. Such powers are accepted in most other countries in Europe because of their practical use in the detection of crime but we talk of them as if they were extraordinary. Other jurisdictions have powers of detention for far greater periods than what we are proposing, though their codes of practice and their regulations may be different from ours.
It is largely because of my perception of the type of person that this section is designed to deal with that I welcome it though in common with Deputies such as Deputy David Andrews, for instance, while accepting broadly the need for the Bill, I regret that our society has reached such a point.
Most Deputies who have spoken against this section—and these included Deputies from my own party—took this line because of their concern that the powers would be abused. I consider the whole question of the safeguards and amendments which the Minister has promised to be extremely important in the context of the legislation. These safeguards should be written strongly into the regulations the Minister will produce. There should be a strict requirement in regard to the recording of each detention, of the name of the person detained, the reason for the detention and so on.
The Complaints Commission, too, are a vital part of all this. While the community suffers a great deal more at the hands of the criminal than at the hands of the Garda, a much greater blow is dealt to the whole fabric of law and order as a result of a garda stepping out of line, whether in a very minor or in a major way, whether the act in question relates to double jobbing or to crime. Sadly, there were cases recently of gardaí being involved in rather serious crime. One act of that kind can be much more damaging to the fabric of society than are perhaps 100 crimes perpetrated by people from the civilian population.
In entrusting the Garda with these additional powers we must expect them to continue the progress made in the past 18 months towards cleaning up their own act. They must realise that these new powers are all the more reason for members of the Force behaving with the utmost propriety. Even minor offences within the ranks should be dealt with the maximum severity.
I am satisfied regarding the exclusion of children from the additional powers in the Bill. This is being done on the basis of the three pieces of legislation dealing with children and which are expected to be produced before the end of the year. On this basis we look forward to a radical improvement in the situation of children in the legal sense.
It is no accident that we are making these very major changes in our law. To emphasise again the seriousness of the situation, we must realise that people outside this House have been taking power into their own hands because they have found that the Garda are not dealing with the problem. There are many reasons for this; some relating to failures which will be corrected by this legislation but others relating to problems that will not be so corrected but which must be tackled simultaneously. That is a very dangerous situation.
There were points made by some Deputies which were worthwhile. Deputy Shatter indicated that in excluding certain groups of children from the powers of this section or of other sections, say, the 14-to-18 year olds or the 12-to-14 year olds, we would be excluding groups who are particularly vulnerable. The Deputy said it would be desirable to involve perhaps juvenile liaison officers in some of the regulations relating to detention. This is an extremely important and useful proposal because in many cases involving these young people parental control is not what it might be. Consequently, the concern and the services of juvenile liaison officers or other social workers would be a very important and radical aspect of the whole situation.
