I have just learned to my amazement from our Chief Whip that you have indicated that the Private Members' motion under Deputy Vincent Brady's name, No. 65 on the Order Paper, cannot be taken next week. Your ruling in this matter is unprecedented and, quite frankly, we are not prepared to accept it. We are prepared to see this matter through to the ultimate, if necessary. This is an unwarranted interference with our rights as an Opposition Party. God knows, we get little enough Dáil time and we are restricted in many ways in regard to public debate. If you, Sir, are going to exercise this sort of judgment in regard to Private Members' motions, I do not see how we can carry on our business as an Opposition Party.
Business of Dáil.
Deputy Haughey, the motion which your party submitted for discussion in Private Members' time sought, in effect, to re-open a discussion on the planning and development paper, Building on Reality. I had no option but to rule that out of order in accordance with Standing Order No. 48 which reads as follows:
No Member shall re-open a discussion on a question already discussed during the preceding six months...
This particular matter was discussed for five days. I was bound by that Standing Order and had no hesitation in ruling as I did. As you say, I discussed the matter with the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party. Nobody is infallible but in so far as one possibly can be sure that one is right, I am certain that I am right in my decision, subject to fallibility. If the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party and his party feel so strongly on the matter and wish to bring it to the ultimate, as he has said, by putting down a vote of censure on the Chair, I have ruled and there is nothing I can do about it, I am sorry.
I am quite genuinely astonished at this action on your part. I may be mistaken, but I cannot recollect any occasion on which such a ruling has been given by the Chair. I have never seen Article 48 of Standing Orders used in this way. I know that it applies to putting down questions. However, if you are, Sir, to exercise this sort of censorship on the Opposition Party's only available opportunity to give expression to their points of view on current important issues, I submit, Sir, that there is not much point in our remaining here trying to conduct the business of the Opposition.
The debate that took place was a Government motion in which the Government asked Dáil Éireann to approve of the particular document. Since then, there have been a number of important developments. We are putting forward a totally different proposition, namely that the document be withdrawn. I think that this is a perfectly natural sequel to a number of things that have emerged since the vote was taken on the Government motion — its rejection by the Congress of Trade Unions, evidence of the falsity of the figures and a number of other matters. Sir, if your ruling is to be accepted it would, in fact, amount to the prevention of any sort of reasonable debate in this House. For instance, the document, Building on Reality deals with the Estimates for the next three years. Does that mean that we are not allowed to discuss the Estimates for the next six months? Does it mean that when budget time comes we cannot discuss anything on the budget debate or the Finance Act which is covered in this document Building on Reality, I think, Sir, that your ruling in this matter is absurd.
I beg, with great respect, to differ from Deputy Haughey. I am sorry, there is nothing I can do about it.
I suggest to you, with all due deference that there is a great deal you can do about it. In the light of my arguments, you can reconsider your position. I think you are going to reduce Private Members' time to a farce if you are going to stick to this interpretation. I am asking you seriously to reconsider this matter. I do not know if it has been fully argued to you on our behalf by our Chief Whip. I am quite sure that he was as much taken aback by your ruling as I am. Certainly, I feel that you should, at least, reconsider your position in the matter. If not, Sir, I would ask you to call an urgent meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
That is my ruling. I cannot be overruled by anybody, only the House. I have given the matter great consideration, Deputy, especially as you sent the Chief Whip of your party to me. I am satisfied that if I were to rule otherwise, I would be reducing the six months rule to an absurdity and I would be making it possible to have a debate on this document or any other document every week for the next two years. That would be a manifest absurdity.
Have you adverted to the fact that if your interpretation of this ruling is upheld in this way we would be prevented for the next six months from discussing the public Estimates?
I do not accept that.
That is in effect what you are ruling.
It is not.
Can you quote for me any occasion on which Standing Order No. 48 was presented in this way to prevent the principal Opposition party putting down a Private Members' motion?
The ruling is there in black and white.
Can you quote a precedent?
A precedent is not necessary whether there is a precedent or not. The rule as read out by me is there in black and white. I wonder if anybody would be so courageous as to seek to debate a paper or document which had been debated for five days in the House only weeks before.
That has nothing to do with it. I am asking you to quote for me a precedent where a Ceann Comhairle ruled out a Private Members' motion proposed by the principal Opposition party under Standing Order No. 48.
I quoted Standing Order No. 48 and I am satisfied without doubt and I assure you, Deputy Haughey, that if I thought for one moment that you or any other Deputies in the House were entitled to debate the matter I would allow it.
Can you quote any precedent where it has ever happened?
Precedents come in only——
There are no precedents for what you are trying to do now.
There is no necessity to start a howling match. Precedents are relied on only when Standing Orders are not clear.
I have heard you on countless occasions in this House——
There may be precedents——
Sir, I suggest to you that before you ruled on this you might have looked up the precedents.
I must be firm.
When will you call a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
I do not call meetings of anybody. A meeting is due next Wednesday, I understand. I suggest that Deputy Haughey use the Chief Whip of his party to request a meeting.
You, Sir, are Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I am not going to give an impromptu, off-the-cuff decision now.
I am pressing you to permit a perfectly legitimate Private Members' motion to go forward next week or alternatively to call an emergency meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges today or tomorrow.
I want to tell the House two things: (1) I ruled and I am standing by my ruling; (2) the Committee on Procedure and Privileges cannot overrule me.
You are afraid of them.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges can consider from this party the motion I have in mind to put down.
They cannot overrule me.
I am asking you to call a meeting to consider the sort of resolution which I have mentioned.
That is a very reasonable request.
I will consider calling a meeting as requested by Deputy Haughey, but I have made the position clear——
With all due deference and respect to your position as Chair, I assure you that we regard this as a matter of fundamental importance affecting deeply our capacity to act as the Opposition in this Dáil.
The Chair regards the ruling he has given as basic to the running of this Dáil in an orderly fashion.
(Interruptions).
Sir, you have not heard me speak. I am going to be helpful.
(Interruptions.)
I have not spoken yet.
Sit down. There is a tradition that when the Chair stands——
If that is the wish of the Chair, yes.
There is a tradition too that the Chair's ruling is never questioned in the House, but that is not allowed unless on a formal motion put down.
You pushed us.
Out of courtesy to Deputy Haughey who came in and requested to put it, I allowed him to make his case and I answered him in a reasonable way. I regret very much that I will not allow any further discussion on it and please do not ask me to do so.
I want to be helpful.
I am not going to allow any more discussion on it.
You will not have much more respect in this House——
(Interruptions.)
Everybody else in the House could get up, Deputy Haughey. I will not allow any more discussion on it.
This is a fundamental right of the Opposition party.
I have heard Deputy Haughey, I have said I will call——
I do not always intervene in matters of this kind, as the Ceann Comhairle knows.
I do not want to have to adjourn the House.
I want to be helpful, if I may.
I am not going to hear Deputy Lenihan. I heard the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party in my office and I heard the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party here.
If I may suggest it, the Ceann Comhairle's ruling is excellent in any situation where it is a once-off motion.
I am not going to——
Here we have a document produced by the Government——
The Deputy is putting forward an argument.
——concerning Estimates over the next three years, an important matter of ongoing debate that is being taken into the streets by the Fine Gael Party and again by the Labour Party. The Fine Gael Party have taken this matter out to the streets but we want to debate it in detail in this House.
(Interruptions.)
We are not going to be intimidated by the Chair or by anybody else.
You are trying to muzzle the Opposition to protect Garret FitzGerald's travelling road show.
Deputy O'Keeffe will withdraw that remark.
What did I say wrong?
Deputy O'Keeffe will withdraw that remark or leave the House. I must protect the Chair. He accused me of protecting the Government.
(Interruptions.)
I am asking Deputy O'Keeffe to withdraw the remark that the Chair is protecting anybody.
I am ready to consider withdrawing the remark I made which is the truth.
Deputy O'Keeffe will withdraw it without qualification.
A Deputy
What is he supposed to withdraw?
He accused the Chair of acting unfairly.
I did not say unfairly.
What do the Opposition party do?
I have already made it clear that the Chair is acting unfairly in ruling out a Private Members' motion, the only privilege in this Dáil that the Opposition have.
Deputy O'Keeffe accused the Chair of protecting the Government, and that is the most serious charge that can be made.
I heard him refer to Garret's travelling road show, that is all.
I do not want to have to adjourn this House. I have ruled in accordance with Standing Order No. 48 and I am standing on that. I am calling the next business.
On a point of order, Sir, can you tell me when this emergency meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will take place? Will it take place this afternoon?
I will consult with my advisers and perhaps the Deputy will call to see me at about 4.30 p.m. and I will give him an answer. I am calling Deputy David Andrews.
It is very important that the Members of this House realise that we are the Members who are governed by Standing Orders. I had occasion, Sir, last week to draw your attention to Standing Orders which did not allow you to allow a Minister to answer a question that was not put.
I am not dealing with that. I am calling Deputy David Andrews.
It is Standing Orders and the Chair, as indicated in his Irish title, must advise the House in accordance with Standing Orders.
He must rule in accordance with Standing Orders.