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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985

Vol. 355 No. 5

Financial Resolutions, 1985. - Financial Resolution No. 3: Excise— Hydrocarbons.

I move:

(1) That in this Resolution—

"the Order of 1975" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 221) (Excise Duties) Order 1975 (S.I. No. 307 of 1975);

"the Act of 1984" means the Finance Act, 1984 (No. 9 of 1984).

(2) That the duty of excise on mineral hydrocarbon light oil imposed by paragraph 11 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 31st day of January, 1985, at the rate of £25.56 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 73 (2) of the Act of 1984.

(3) That the duty of excise on hydrocarbon oil imposed by paragraph 12 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 31st day of January, 1985, at the rate of £18.99 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 73 (6) of the Act of 1984.

(4) That the amount of any repayment allowed under section 35 (5) (b) of the Finance Act, 1981 (No. 16 of 1981), shall, in respect of hydrocarbon oil used, on or after the 1st day of February, 1985, for the purpose specified in the said section 35 (5) (b), be the amount of excise duty paid on the quantity of oil so used, in lieu of the amount referred to in section 60 (9) of the Finance Act, 1983 (No. 15 of 1983).

(5) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Resolutions Nos. 3 and 6 are being discussed together.

We are opposing Resolutions Nos. 3 and 6. Resolution No. 3 imposes additional duty on petrol primarily, but also on a number of oils. The effect of Resolutions Nos. 3 and 6 together is to impose an increased burden on an already overburdened motorist. It is recognised in this House now in a number of budgets that when we are talking about the price of petrol, the tax on petrol and the tax on cars we are no longer talking about luxuries. For many people a motor car is a necessity. It is an essential part of their employment. It is necessary to enable them to get to their place of work and very often to travel during the course of their duties. An increase under either of those headings will impact directly on a very large section of the community and under no circumstances should it be regarded as a tax on luxurious items or on something which is primarily a form of relaxation. On simple economic grounds it is unfair and undesirable to resort to the motorist once again as has been done on this occasion. There is of course the subsidiary aspect of cross-Border trade which in recent years has loomed very large in all our discussions on taxation and particularly on indirect taxation. With the recent movement in favour of the Irish pound against sterling that inclination to shop across the Border has become even more attractive. There have been some changes in VAT rates today which are intended to improve the situation in that regard but which most of us believe will not have any major effect. One of the key elements in enticing consumers across the Border is the price of petrol and from that point of view Resolution No. 3 must be regarded as very detrimental. To increase the price of petrol is here to give a very considerable impetus to that cross-Border trade.

Resolution No. 3 also covers other energy areas. In particular, the cost of heating oil will be increased. I should like the Taoiseach to give us full details of exactly what will be involved in the operation of this resolution. We are entitled to know, firstly, what exactly it will mean in relation to the price of petrol at the pumps. Secondly, we are entitled to know what it will mean in the price of home heating, and, indeed, to know all its other implications. I want the Taoiseach to give us a fair amount of information in that regard. Under any of these headings we are not dealing with a matter of optional expenditure. For most people these are necessary expenditures, either in the course of their employment or domestically. I should like the Taoiseach to outline exactly what the impact of this resolution will be in the different areas which it will affect.

I should also like to know, in regard to Resolution No. 6, what exactly we are talking about. The Minister has suggested that the provisions would operate in favour of smaller vehicles. I should like some information from him on exactly how he sees these increases in excise duties on motor cars operating. What exactly, in all cases, is the revenue which he expects to accrue to the Exchequer?

To deal with the various points raised, first with regard to petrol, the price comparison I used is in relation to premium grade petrol, in order to maintain comparability in different figures. The position is that pre-budget the retail price of premium grade petrol was 289.1p per gallon. It will, by the addition of 10p a gallon, become 299.1p per gallon. That figure compares with the post-budget figure last year of 288.5p per gallon. This is an increase of 3.7 per cent so that, including the budget increase, petrol will have risen in price by only 3.7 per cent in the past year. By comparison, the general CPI increase — the latest figure available is for last November — is 6.7 per cent in the period. With the budget increase, the increase in petrol price is only half what it is for consumer goods generally. This reflects the downward trend in petrol prices. Since October last the price has dropped by 6.4p. It would seem likely to me, speaking now as a layman, that the OPEC decision to reduce their price of oil by $1 a barrel, still leaving it above the spot price, is likely to lead to further reductions in the period ahead. It seems to me, on the face of it, probable that, allowing for that, petrol prices, within a month or so — perhaps it will take a little longer to come through the pipeline to reach us from source — but over the next couple of months, will drop further, which could well mean that between October last and, say, next April, you could have a full 10p reduction in the basic price, offsetting fully the increase in excise duty and VAT of 10p. That is speculative, I admit. One cannot be certain of the exact figure. Already, two-thirds of the increase imposed here has been discounted by the price reductions which have taken place in the last couple of months, of December and January. In real terms of purchasing power of money and in terms of people's incomes, the price of petrol is lower, after this budget, than it was after the last budget. The increase imposed, therefore, is modest in these circumstances. Another Government, perhaps, could have attempted opportunistically to increase the price by more, while still not raising it above the level, in real terms, that it was at a year ago. We felt that we should limit the increase to this amount on the basis that over the three months before and after the budget the decline in oil prices will more or less offset this, so you will have a period of relative stability in petrol prices despite the increase to the Exchequer.

In looking for money and obviously we have to raise additional money in order to keep within the parameters of the plan, as we have done — and at the same time pursuing the commitments in the plan, both to holding down the level of taxation to the same as last year, 36.7 per cent to be precise, and to adjusting bands and allowances with a view to helping people paying income tax, preventing an erosion of their position by inflation, additional funds have to be raised and limited tax increases in this budget include one on petrol. It is perhaps the most defensible in many ways although, of course, tobacco and cigarettes are health cases as well. In this instance, because of the trend in oil prices and because the increase in price, even after the budget, will only be 3.7 per cent over the past year, I do not think that anybody could seriously quarrel with this. I am not too sure that the Deputy is seriously quarrelling with it, although he obviously has to make his point.

With regard to the effect on consumption, it will be negligible. It is not possible to measure it because it is so small. It is expected that there will be increases of up to 5 per cent in the consumption of Derv and any decline in petrol consumption will be so marginal as to be incalculable. This again indicates that it is obviously an area where some tax increases are reasonably justified.

With regard to the other resolution mentioned by the Deputy — road tax on private motor cars — the position is that the increase will be of 50p on cars not exceeding 8 horse power, which constitute between one-fifth and a quarter of all cars. That is a 6 per cent increase, which is small again, within the rate of inflation. The actual road tax on smaller cars will be, in real terms, no higher but fractionally lower than they were a year ago.

For cars with a horse power of 9 to 15, there is an increase of £1. That is a large group of cars — 700,000. It is the great majority of cars. The increase per horse power of £1 obviously means paying some £9 to £15 more, depending on the horse power in that range.

With the larger cars, which constitute quite a small group — about 7 per cent of the total — I do not think that any of us would worry too much about the position of this group who have these larger cars and can afford the few pounds extra. There is £2 per horse power increase there, which obviously could involve an increase of £32 to £40. That particular social group could well afford that. The increases, therefore, are very modest. They compare favourably with those in other recent budgets. For cars not exceeding 8 horse power, the increases in the last three budgets have been, respectively, £1, £2 and £1. In this budget it is only 50p. For the nine to 12 horse power group, for example, in 1982 and 1983 the increase was £2 per horsepower whereas in this budget, as in the last one, it is £1 only. Therefore for the great majority of people the increases are modest and compare favourably with those in a number of recent budgets. I do not think they will involve any severe hardship because of the relatively small amounts involved: a car not exceeding eight horse power, 50 pence per horse power — then £4 is hardly a heavy impost.

I think that answers the points raised by the Deputy. At least I hope I have answered but I am more than happy to come back with any supplementary points he may have or, if I have failed to answer any question, to take it up.

I listened to the Taoiseach. He said that he did not think that anybody could seriously quarrel with the increase in the price of petrol, that that was one of the more defensible aspects of the budget, that and the decision to increase the price of cigarettes. I will not comment on the decision to increase the price of cigarettes. But I should like the Taoiseach to be in absolutely no doubt that I would very seriously quarrel with the increase in the price of petrol by 10p because it will have disastrous consequences for Border counties.

This time two years ago, in January 1983, just after this Government came to power, as you know, a Cheann Comhairle, most of the trade was coming from the Six Counties to the Republic of Ireland, and with the position of the £ and the punt it was attractive for people to come from the Six Counties to the Republic. As a result of this Government's action in the month of January 1983 the price of petrol went up by 35p which changed the pattern completely. People living in Border counties and in Border towns crossed the Border for their petrol because it was attractive for them to do so. Then they took their families, went to towns on the other side of the Border to do their shopping at the weekends. While there was no great value to be had, apart from electrical goods and spirits, they did most of their shopping there including the purchase of their groceries. Then people in Dublin, Cork and elsewhere heard about this and there were busloads of people going to the Six Counties to do their shopping over the last two years. We read yesterday that the town of Newry made £15 million from the Republic in the three weeks before Christmas. I do not begrudge the Northern towns the extra business. Nor do I blame people who cross the Border to do their shopping but I do blame the Government for rendering it more and more attractive for people to leave this State and go across the Border to do their shopping.

I should like to ask the Taoiseach if he has figures for petrol sales in Border counties over the last two years, if he is aware of the reduction from 64,000 gallons to 19,000 gallons a month in petrol sales in the first six months after this Government came to power. For example, is he aware that two petrol stations have closed down in my own town, and in the town next to me, Castleblayney, three have closed down since they came to power? Is he aware that if one passes any filling station on the Six Counties side of the Border — one with six fast filling petrol pumps like that at Cullaville — there will be at least 10 to 20 cars there at any time of day. All that constitutes a loss of revenue to this State. The Taoiseach told us that petrol would now be 299.1p per gallon. He said it was 11 pence more than it was this time last year and he did not think that was too serious looking at price increases generally. I should like to ask the Taoiseach what is the gap between the price of petrol on this side of the Border and that on the other side.

The Taoiseach said he thought petrol would come down in price as a result of the OPEC decision in Geneva. I should like to ask him how much petrol will come down per gallon, in his opinion, as a result of that decision taken in Geneva.

One point I would make about the problem encountered in Border counties is that this is the first Government in the history of the State that has not had a Minister from a Border constituency. I know, a Cheann Comhairle, that you yourself were a member of the last Coalition Government. I have absolutely no doubt that if you were still a member of that Cabinet we would not be here debating an increase in the price of petrol.

The Chair should not be introduced into the debate.

I will leave your good self out of it, a Cheann Comhairle, but were any of the former Ministers from Border counties sitting at the Cabinet table when this budget was being drawn up I have no doubt that we would not be here this evening discussing Resolution No. 3 because it would not have been included in the Financial Statement of the Minister. In fact, if anything, I would hazard a guess that there would have been a reduction in the price of petrol in order to reduce the imbalance, ensuring that people remained in the Republic and would not be spending their money across the Border which is extra money for the United Kingdom Exchequer.

The Taoiseach himself should be aware that not alone in Border counties will it have disastrous consequences but it will create serious problems for families and industry. People need their cars for going to work, to go to town to shop. Public transport is becoming less easily available in rural areas and a car is no longer a luxury but a necessity for very many people. This latest price increase will in turn increase the cost of manufacturing goods and services, in that way, causing additional hardship on many people and on many industries already struggling mainly as a result of the Government's economic policies. Is the Taoiseach aware of the disastrous consequences that his policies are having in the Border counties, if he has any figures for petrol sales in Border counties, of the number of petrol stations that have closed down and how he sees petrol prices developing as a result of the OPEC decision?

I have not got figures for petrol sales in Border counties. I have no doubt but that they have obviously been seriously affected, as they always are, by relative price comparisons. Over my adult lifetime the relative prices of petrol, North and South, have fluctuated in favour of one or other area at different times. I have been travelling up to the North over the last 40 years and there have always been petrol stations on one or other side of the Border doing a great trade for some period of time and then it switches to the other side of the Border, when they start building them there and the other ones become derelict. That process has gone on regularly over the period. Given the price differential at present, there is and must inevitably be, a leakage to Northern Ireland in terms of petrol sales by people near the Border. I would not contest that for a moment.

Without wishing to anticipate debate I would point out that other measures in the budget have very greatly reduced and, in some cases eliminated, the incentive to go North to buy goods. I think the busloads will be much less numerous from now on then they now are or have been in recent times. The elimination of those incentives will reduce the attractiveness to people to go across in order to shop and buy petrol. There will still be people living near the Border who will find it convenient to cross over and buy petrol at the cheaper price — that is inevitable in the present situation — but it will be affected only marginally by the difference involved here, 10p, which increases only marginally the differential that exists already.

With regard to the likely effect of the OPEC price change, it is not possible to forecast that. One has to recognise that a change in the OPEC official price has a somewhat limited relevance. They are being forced to reduce their prices because of the fact that the free market spot price is falling and, just as bank interest rates follow changes in the interbank rate, so the OPEC official price follows in the wake of fluctuations in the spot price market. The fact that the official price has come down by a dollar does not necessarily reflect the actual decline in the price we will be paying or that those who buy oil on our behalf will be paying. As an example — a very crude calculation — if in fact it were a dollar and were passed on, in terms of petrol prices probably it would have the effect of eliminating the other 3½ pence that remains to be eliminated to get petrol prices down by 10 pence since last December and would offset completely the increase here.

I am only saying that speculatively because obviously one cannot determine in advance precisely what the prices will be with the many complex factors involved. Given the general trend of oil prices, it seems reasonable to assume that there will be a further reduction in petrol prices here and that its order of magnitude will be likely to be sufficient to effect a total net drop of 10p over some period of months, from December to April, in the price which this duty increase will do no more than offset. As to whether that will affect the relationship between prices North and South, that is less certain and depends upon the extent to which the British and Northern Ireland petrol prices are affected by North Sea oil prices rather than OPEC prices, although over a period of time the two have to move more or less in harmony. I could not comment on that aspect of it.

I recognise the cross-Border problem. I recognise that the effect of this at the point at which it takes place will be marginally to increase the incentive. But the disincentive to go North, or the removal of the incentive to go North to purchase goods under other headings which we will be discussing later, will greatly outweigh any marginal effect it might have. That is a personal feel for it, rather than speaking on official advice on the subject. It is not amenable to close or tight calculation. I have not got any precise data on the actual sales in northern areas. I am quite sure the Deputy is right in saying they have been greatly reduced because of the adverse relationship which exists at present, just as at other times they have been heavily boosted by the favourable relationship which existed in the past in different periods when the benefit was on our side.

I do not think it is much of a defence to tell the Irish people that the improvement in the dollar exchange rate and the OPEC oil decision mean that we cannot allow that sort of reduction to be passed on to the public and that we have to adjust our taxation system, as it were, to make sure that improvements in the dollar-punt position are not passed on. I was interested in the Taoiseach's comment when he predicted that a further reduction in oil prices will be the trend. That tempts one to ask the question as to whether it might be the policy of this Government to continue to pump the price of petrol back up if we are lucky enough to get a reduction because of the dollar exchange position. That would be a curious waltzing arrangement with the Arabs.

Whenever we are lucky enough to get a reduction because of the exchange rates or OPEC decisions the Government make sure that the benefit to the community is not passed on, but is picked up in extra taxation. It is a cosy arrangement. The public will not be too pleased about it if it is to continue for any length of time. The people do not care much whether it is those Arabs over there or our brand of Arabs here who impose the increase. The fact remains that after this budget there is 10p a gallon extra on the price of petrol over what it was last week. If a person travels an average of 10,000 miles, that involves about 400 gallons of petrol. We are talking about almost £1 per week in the household budget directly as a result of this decision. It does not mitigate that to point out that it was almost as dear last year anyway. People expected the dollar position and the OPEC decision to give them an alleviation in the price of petrol and that has not happened. They are faced with an extra £1 a week approximately in their petrol bill.

With the income tax reduction, on the tables presented by the Minister this afternoon, a married man with three children will be saved a total of £70 per annum, which I reckon to be £1.35p per week. He will now take home £1.35 per week extra on the taxation tables presented to the House. With an average car with an average mileage, he will have to pay £1 of that immediately to take up the slack in the petrol price. The £1.35 on average which is put back in the person's pocket is taken out directly again by this measure and a number of other measures which I will come back to later on.

The proportion of the price of petrol taken in taxation has been increasing steadily despite the comment the Taoiseach made earlier. In 1980, 50 per cent of the price of a gallon of petrol was made up in taxation. By 1984 that figure had increased to 56 per cent. As a result of this decision, it will jump to 58 or 59 per cent, that is, up from 50 per cent in 1980 to nearly 60 per cent now. The proportion the State takes on each gallon is increasing quite dramatically. We must keep a very close eye on this.

The number of people who can afford to drive cars is declining. In 1982 there were 775,000 car owners in the State. Two years later there are 710,000 to 715,000 car owners, a reduction of some 60,000 in a period of about two and a half years. The message is quite clear. People cannot afford to drive and they cannot afford to put petrol into cars. This decision tonight will fall very heavily on the backs of three quarters of a million car owners virtually. That point is worth bringing home to the House.

On a similar point, in 1982 73,000 cars were purchased here. Two years later that figure had fallen to 55,000 for the year. The number of cars being sold and the number of people owning and driving cars show dramatic drops. One wonders whether there will be any increased revenue, or whether the Government will get the increased revenue they predicted of some £27 million. I did not notice that figure in the Minister's speech this afternoon, but I noticed it in the appendix. Some £27 million is expected to be taken in under this measure. I doubt very much that that will happen. If these trends continue and there is a reduction in the number of cars and drivers, I estimate that that £27 million will be eaten into severely.

The role of Irish tourism as an essential contribution to the balance of payments cannot be over-emphasised. It is a major contributor to the balance of payments. It is an £800 million industry. It is suffering from tremendous unemployment and it is under enormous pressure. I do not see any opt out clause, or any voucher scheme, or any suggestion that our biggest customers, our tourists, should be treated in any particularly helpful way to encourage the industry. As I pointed out in a supplementary question this afternoon, two lines were devoted to the tourist industry in the summary to the national plan.

The only proposal for tourism in the national plan which I could identify was the late opening of public houses. There was no other proposal for one of our major industries. The decision tonight will be quite a severe blow to the tourist industry. One has to draw attention to that. The Taoiseach might ask the Government to consider doing something to help the tourist industry in regard to the petrol price increase announced tonight. I should like to put those points before the House and particularly the fact that the Government cannot continue to ride on the back of the exchange rates and to claw back in taxation any benefit given to the Irish people. That policy will catch up on the Government.

I am sorry Deputy O'Hanlon is not in the House because I want to say a word in support of the argument put forward by him in his usual very reasonable manner. Before I do so I should like to say that the budget in general is very good. Set against the background of the community benefits it will give, we must think of how to pay for those benefits.

If you are going to make general remarks you must relate them to the resolution before the House.

If Deputy Haughey was not so touchy I would have finished my general remarks. Deputy Haughey is so apt to make general remarks himself that he is liable to get heckled——

The Chair will decide whether there will be heckling or whether there will not be heckling and the Chair will see to it that there will not be. Will the Deputy get on to the resolution?

If one compares the changes proposed in this resolution with the general strategy of the budget——

Can we all have a go at the general strategy of the budget?

It was very selective of Deputy Brennan to compare this resolution and the incomes of certain PAYE earners——

(Interruptions.)

The only relevant point made in the last two minutes has been by Deputy O'Hanlon. He made a very good point in regard to Border constituencies and I support him. If the House could look seriously at the problem Border areas have in regard to petrol prices we might be able to come up with a solution. It does not affect my constituency directly but I know that when people go to the other side of the Border to purchase petrol they make other purchases. The budget has gone a long way to discourage such people from making other purchases. If we could discourage people from crossing the Border for petrol we could make a substantial inroad on the whole problem. Could we have certain petrol stations at which people could get VAT refunds? People might be able to get credits at such stations. Of course there would be a cut-off problem, in relation to whether we should confine such filling stations to Dundalk or to have them as far south as Drogheda.

We must try to narrow the disparity in petrol prices north and south of the Border by issuing either refunds or credits to people who purchase their petrol just south of the Border. All of us should address ourselves constructively to such a suggestion. Something must be done to benefit traders on this side of the Border.

I am compelled to say something on this resolution arising from the dismissive manner in which the Taoiseach dealt with a very serious tax imposition when one looks at its whole implication. We are dealing with hydrocarbon products in general which all directly affect industrial costs. This is obvious if one looks at how Irish industry is distributed throughout the country and the dependence of our industry on exports. Because of our dependence on exports there is a high distribution cost element built into Irish industry: there is a high element of transport in industrial, commercial and farming businesses. Trucks and vans are widely used for transportation and you cannot dismiss the effects of this resolution in a casual way as if it is a tax that does not matter.

In his usual breezy way and with his bizarre brand of optimism the Taoiseach suggested that oil prices will fall and that we can look forward to a relatively stable period of oil prices. If we learned any lesson from the past 12 years we should know of the volatile nature of oil prices internationally and nationally. I do not think there is a product in the world today that is less stable. Therefore, to say this tax is justified on the basis of an indefinite period of stable oil prices is nonsense.

This is not an inconsequential tax. It will yield £27 million and it will directly affect industrial costs immediately, from midnight, unlike some of the other provisions in the budget which will not have effect for months. As from tonight these costs will be felt by every sector of our economy, affecting industrial, commercial and farming areas. It will mean further disemployment. It cannot have any other effect.

Therefore, it is not a tax that can be regarded lightly. To decide now to raise the costs of the industrial, commercial and agricultural sectors with immediate effect is a serious decision. It is an effort to get the Government out of the corner in which they got themselves by cosmetic exercises in other parts of the budget. It is an easy cop out and cannot be explained by the type of arguments we have had from the Taoiseach and the Minister. With his optimism about stable oil prices the Minister for Finance now has decided to take the cream while it is going in the hope that stabilised oil prices will be a feature of the international market. The Taoiseach knows well that is not the case, that we are subject to the most volatile buyers and sellers and marketeers in the world who run a most complex network of international markets. The Irish Government, the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance cannot forecast glibly to the House that oil prices will remain stable at a low level for some time. That is not on. It is not good enough to base the tax on that type of glib assumption. The Government will get £27 million from this, but they should not run away from the consequences. The money is being secured to settle accounts in other areas. It is being obtained as a result of a direct cost imposition on Irish industry, commerce and farming. The increase will affect costs immediately and will cause a lot of unemployment in the years ahead.

I note that the Minister proposes to make an order to the effect that petrol retail outlets can increase their petrol charges by 10p per gallon from midnight tonight. Is that true? I thought a maximum prices order had to be made by the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism. What is the position of retailers who purchased petrol today at the old price? Will they be permitted to make an extra 10p per gallon profit? If that is the case it is a damnable disgrace.

I should like to know if red diesel, used for agricultural purposes, is to be increased by 10p per gallon. It must be remembered that white diesel is used in cars and lorries but the red diesel is used in tractors and other farm machinery. If red diesel is to be increased by 10p per gallon farmers involved in tillage will suffer because the price of grain and agricultural produce this year will not be increased by the EC. Have the owners of petrol retail outlets permission to alter their pumps and charge 10p per gallon more from midnight? I hope the position is that the increase will not come into effect until a maximum prices order is made by the appropriate Minister and that that is made clear to retailers. I would not like to see motorists being exploited on this issue.

I note that the tax on agricultural vehicles is being increased by 100 per cent and that once again the motor trade will be crippled by exorbitant taxes. There is no doubt that more unemployment will follow in that sector. I understood that the Government decided to reduce VAT on repairs to 5 per cent to take that work out of the black economy, to stop repairs taking place in backyards, but I have no doubt that the increase imposed today will mean more for the black economy. I am not in favour of the black economy but the Minister's proposals in regard to car repairs is a receipe to divert motorists to those operating in the black economy. The increases in transport costs will lead to increases in many commodities.

I should like to emphasise the seriousness of the increase in hydrocarbon oils. The taking of £27 million on this is a serious impost because of the impact it will have on various aspects of Irish life. Last year I dealt with this matter also. The philosophy of Fianna Fáil over the years — to some extent we converted other parties also — has been to decentralise industry. The result is that some people living in purely rural areas work in industrial centres. The resolution under discussion will lead to a severe increase in their costs. We have heard a lot of talk about moderation in wage and salary claims but one thing that pushes trade unions into the position of looking for more for their members is this regular increase in expenses. Many workers must use their cars to travel from ten to 30 miles to work daily. Any Member who approaches this city from a 30 mile perimeter is aware of this. This increase is a blow at the decentralisation thinking which is good for the country in every way, demographically and as far as the social mores of the people are concerned. When one adds that to the increase in car tax one can see how seriously workers will suffer.

The position in regard to Border areas has been mentioned by Deputies O'Hanlon and Mitchell. It is a serious problem. Impulsive buying must be taken into account. The supermarkets have developed a philosophy — it is a very insulting one to women — to get, as they describe it, the Nellies in. Once they get customers in the supermarkets rely on impulsive buying. It is an offensive term but there is a phychological reality behind it. We know from experience that roadside markets in towns near the Border are drawing people. In some cases people pay more at those markets than they would pay for similar articles at home. This 10p per gallon is only an added incentive for people to go North for petrol and to buy other goods as well. The point made by the Minister today that prices have been falling at the pumps is a very shaky reason to give for putting an extra 10p on each gallon.

We all know that an escalation of the long drawn out war between Iraq and Iran, an escalation that would impact on Saudi Arabia or what used to be called the Trucial States, would cut off a major source of supply and would inevitably result in rising prices. We have been watching the antics of the dollar and its impact on prices. That is another area of which we have to take cognisance because, as the House knows, hydrocarbon oil has to be paid for in US dollars. The OPEC Ministers have been trying to sustain prices and they are finding it difficult, but perhaps the Minister thinks they will find it so difficult that the price will fall drastically. I understand $29 per barrel for light Arabian was the agreed OPEC price up to now but the latest quotation in The Economist was $27.65 and it has dropped below that, but the opposite may happen.

The dollar has got very strong. I have pleaded in this House for some attempt within the EC to have an EC petro currency to try to counteract this kind of thing, but at present we are bound to pay for oil in dollars. The proposition in the Government's plan that US rates of interest would not go up was foolish. Nobody could say that. Nobody could say that the strengthening dollar would not affect the price of oil here. There is the possibility of providing coupons along the Border. At the time of the Suez crisis I remember we got out coupons for the whole country in a very short time and I think the Government should consider such a move.

I mentioned the young people who have to pay exorbitant car insurance rates. These young people who are lucky enough to have jobs not only have to pay exorbitant insurance rates but they have to pay an extra 10p on the gallon of petrol and increased motor taxation. That is a very heavy burden, most of which is deliberately imposed by the Government. We should be very proud of our industrial workers in manufacturing industry and — this is seldom said in this House — the productivity achieved by our farmers over the years. We should be encouraging them rather than discouraging them by direct Government action.

There are approximately 5,000 motor mechanics out of work, many of them highly skilled and on the trail to New York, Boston and other parts. This stab at the motor trade will not help that situation. This trade had a disastrous year as far as selling new cars was concerned and for the first time in the history of the Six Counties, they sold more cars despite all the social, political and economic stresses there than we did in 1984.

The Government should look hard at this matter and accept some modification of the impost they have suggested in this budget.

I would like to deal with a number of points which have been raised. Reference was made to the impact of this increase on the cost of living. It will be 0.2 per cent, and the overall impact of all the tax changes in the cost of living index is .25 per cent, the lowest for the last five years. I want to deal generally with a number of points. I did not say that the Government were opportunistically taxing petrol because there had been a decline in basic oil prices in the last couple of months. The Government's position is that in this budget they had to raise certain money by indirect taxation to finance direct tax reductions. That may be a simplification of the pattern of the budget, but it is part of its main structure.

I am not clear what the Opposition are suggesting. I do not suppose they are suggesting more borrowing because already Deputy O'Kennedy complained that we were borrowing too much. I do not suppose they are saying we should not have achieved these income tax reductions. What exactly are they proposing? I do not think they know. If we are going to maintain the deficit at the planned figure, and that is important, — the planned figure was 7.8 per cent ——

That was not done.

We held it at 7.9 per cent and if at the same time we are to maintain the planned figure of taxation, no further increases above last year's level, 36.7 per cent, and if we are to effect changes in the income tax code, which are rightly demanded and which we are committed to in the plan, then arithmetically there is no alternative but to impose increases in indirect taxes, but the question is where are these best imposed. It is our judgment, and it has not been contested from the other side of the House, that increases in duty on spirits would be pointless because we have reduced this duty drastically to try to encourage people not to buy spirits across the Border and that is a proposition with which the other side of the House agree. I do not think it is proposed that we should increase the duty on beer because the beer and spirits differential has been affected by a reduction in the duty on spirits to the detriment of beer. That was inevitable and it was something we could not do anything about. We have increased the duty on tobacco and that has been accepted without demur. I do not suppose that the Opposition would suggest that we increase this duty further.

Where then do we look for additional revenue? It appeared to me that the appropriate area was petrol for several reasons. First, the price elastically is low, that is to say the increase in tax is not accompanied by a significant drop in consumption and therefore we will get in the revenue and this means revenue increases. Second, from now and for the immediate future, oil prices are reducing, and this is an area where we can increase taxation without imposing a net extra burden on people by comparison with what costs were, even in current money terms, two months ago. In real terms, even after this increase, there is no increase vis-à-vis last year. On the contrary in real terms the price now is lower than it was last year.

I am not clear what the argument is from the other side. Is it proposed that the money be raised by more borrowing? No, because we have already been criticised for the size of the deficit. Is it proposed that we should not try to achieve an improvement in the income tax code? I have not heard anybody say that we should not have reduced income tax. We have to get extra money from somewhere and we have not heard any alternative suggestions. It seemed to me that this was the opportune way to find extra money needed. I am not quite sure what all the sound and fury is about. I suppose it is about politics but that is what this House is about and I can hardly complain in that regard.

Deputy Connolly, who is absent at present, referred to red diesel. Red diesel is not affected by this. It is affected by the VAT increase but that is offset by the increase for farmers of 2.2 per cent in the VAT rebate, so that is a self-contained area.

The other point worrying Deputy Connolly might not have troubled him if he had been following the budget speech more closely because the Minister clearly stated that the question of the price at the pump is a matter to be determined by an order to be made in the days ahead by the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism and there can be no question of increasing pump prices until that order is made. Withdrawals of petrol from bond from midnight will certainly bear the additional duty but the Minister will make a judgment as to the appropriate time that pump prices will be increased, taking into account the time lag on average between withdrawal from bond and when the petrol flows from the pump at petrol stations. Therefore, Deputy Connolly need have no worries on that score: the Government are taking the necessary action.

Those are the main points which have been raised in the debate so far and I am glad of the opportunity to explain more clearly what I did not perhaps explain clearly enough at the outset. The basic thinking behind the budget is the need for a switch from direct to indirect taxation within the tax limits which we have imposed upon ourselves. We are the first Government who committed themselves to hold taxation down to a specific level. Within that, we have to ensure that there is more discretionary spending, more money in people's pockets and a choice in the manner in which they spend it. As I said, there is a switch to indirect taxation and some of that must come from petrol and other hydrocarbons. This will impose the least hardship on people because there are compensatory reductions in other prices. If any Deputy opposite has any alternative suggestions as to what might be taxed instead of this, I should be interested to hear them. I have not heard many such suggestions. I do not fault them for this; normally those in opposition are inhibited in this regard. It is easy to criticise the actions of the Government, and suggesting alternative forms of taxation is not a popular pastime in opposition. I do not really expect it to be indulged in here tonight but it is our judgment that this combination of taxation, putting the bulk on cigarettes, petrol, road tax and other minor items, is the correct way of handling it and I am perfectly certain that the general public also think so. If we had decided to put extra duty on spirits, having just reduced it, or to tax beer, not to cut income tax or to borrow more money, it would have been rejected by the public who will give general support to the measures we have adopted.

I am appalled at the extra taxation on fuel oils and petrol especially when they make such a song and dance about reducing excise duties on television sets because of the big influx of these items over the Border. There will still be a difference of a couple of hundred pounds between the price of a television set north and south of the Border.

How blind can the Government be? I do not mean they have been deliberately blind, they are genuinely blind in increasing the price of petrol and fuel oils, particularly petrol, which involves widening the gap which now comes to the staggering figure of 80 pence in our money between the cost of a gallon of petrol north and south of the Border. Anyone who knows anything about the Border regions knows that the Government should close the gap to some sort of reasonable proportions in regard to beer and petrol. These are the items that draw the people across the Border at weekends. If a husband is fortunate enough to be working he drives his car across the Border and fills it up with enough petrol to last a week. His wife accompanies him to do the shopping and if she visits Derry, Strabane or Enniskillen she buys everything she needs for the week even if in some cases she may pay a little over the odds. To illustrate the astounding difference in prices, a can of Harp manufactured in Dublin is selling for 27 pence sterling across the Border. As a big concession before Christmas, supermarkets here were selling the same can at 99p in our money. That illustrates the crazy difference and, from midnight tonight, there will be a difference of 80 pence per gallon north and south of the Border. Those two items will draw people across the Border on a Saturday afternoon. They will fill their cars with petrol and buy a case of beer each for themselves or their neighbours at this giveaway price. If clothing or shoes catch the woman's eye she will probably buy them as well because she will not bother to shop in towns south of the Border to finish off her shopping.

Other Members and I were on a deputation to the Minister before these staggering differences arose, although we knew they were in the pipeline. We talked to representatives of the Government and we told them it would prove disastrous to small businesses and petrol stations in Border areas. The Government should now be happy as they have closed everything of that nature within a radius of a few miles of the Border. They are now extending the blight still further by increasing the difference in those two items. They made great play of the fact that they have reduced duty on television sets, as if that will make any difference. I can tell the Government that the end result will be that more money will be spent outside the Twenty-Six Counties to our detriment. Television sets will still be about £200 cheaper across the Border. The Government and their advisers must be aware that if an item is in common usage there will be smuggling and it does not matter if all the people in the customs, the Government and everyone else stood shoulder to shoulder along the Border these people would still come and go. They always have and they always will.

I am amazed at the Government's double thinking. We are talking against a background of the Government putting up the price of petrol but leaving the differential on beer. Is it true that the gravity or strenght of the lager which I mentioned, Harp, is weaker in the Six Counties than it is in the Twenty-Six Counties? If the specific gravity were reduced here to the level which obtains across the Border it would have a big impact because it would affect the base price on which all duties, excise, VAT and so on are levied. Is it true that there is a difference? Is it also true that the manufacturers, Guinness, are aware of this and that previous Governments asked them to level the two off but that they refused to do so? There was a suggestion rumoured in the newspapers four or five years ago that if they were pushed to do this they would leave this country and do all their brewing in London. That is the story I heard. If this is a ghost let us lay it. If it is the case perhaps someone can tell us why it is so and why we should have the ruinous position in the beer trade further exacerbated by the fact that there is a lower specific gravity being sold under the same label. The specific gravity is not stated on the cans of lager. This adds to the belief that the story is true.

I appreciate your concern about Harp but we are concerned here with Resolutions Nos. 3 and 6.

Sometimes there is not a lot of difference between one fuel and another. I am sorry for transgressing but I was merely following a line of argument. The Government are making a drastic mistake. If they ruin the Border counties they are adding to the ruin of the Twenty-Six Counties and the entire island. It will have an ongoing effect on everything that is produced in whatever form. The further they are removed from our markets the greater the impact this increase will have. Do not tell me it will not affect the production of goods. It will, directly or indirectly, because people must travel to work and on average in provincial areas they have much further to travel. The increased cost will be reflected in the price of the product and the ultimate feature is that more people will be unemployed.

This resolution will bring about the reverse of what any Government in their senses would be seeking to do and that is to stem the rise in unemployment. That is not what the Government or the country want. Petrol stations and service stations do not exist along the Border. One has to go back 15 miles before one can get petrol. Even at that it is not unusual for people to put £1 worth of petrol into their cars at these stations just to take them across the Border. The Government seem to have got the message and that is why I cannot understand why they have acted in this way on this item. Allied to all the other increases, the increase in road tax, which might be regarded as small in relation to the others is another straw on the camel's back which is so weak that it is liable to break at any time. It is ill-conceived for all the difference it will make to the Government and their much needed input to the Exchequer. One can only summarise that the Government are not aware that the real problem they must tackle, and which they so far have failed to make any impression on in this or any other resolution, is unemployment. They are creating further disincentives by increasing costs and this will be reflected in falling employment.

By agreement Item No. 3 must be put at 8.15 p.m.

I fully agree with previous speakers. The increase is 10p. Can the Taoiseach say exactly how much is in excise and how much is in VAT? Have we now the highest price for petrol and diesel in the ten EC countries? Will the Taoiseach confirm or deny that there will be another price increase application before the Government in the near future arising from the differential between the punt and the dollar?

I have two brief queries to the Taoiseach. Before today there was a differential of 65p per premium gallon of petrol between here and the North. Is the Taoiseach aware that the level of excise duty yield from petrol — figures that have been confirmed to me by the Revenue Commissioners today — shows already a tapering off in petrol yield this year? I will give the Taoiseach the precise figures that have come from the Revenue Commissioners because I consider it important that they be recorded in this House. In 1982 the amount was £245 million. In 1983 the amount was £275 million and in 1984 the amount was £281 million. I am sure the Taoiseach will appreciate that an extra £6 million over the figure for 1983 shows a dramatic decline in real terms. This information came from the statistics section of the Revenue Commissioners. Will the Taoiseach not accept that an extra 10p differential will aggravate the problem and it will mean that we will get a smaller return than we have been getting up to now.

If the Taoiseach or any member of his Cabinet visited the cross-Border customs posts they would see that every single car and bus coming across the Border had topped up with petrol. That is the reality. It will remain the position and it will be aggravated. The Border regions that Deputy Blaney and Deputy MacSharry were concerned about will be further decimated.

That additional increase in the differential will not be compensated in any way by the slight adjustment on television sets. We are talking about a £50 differential but the differential as regards prices is as much as £300 for colour television sets. We are already seeing a fall-off in revenue because of higher levels of excise duty on petrol and the Government are increasing that by another 10p. This will mean a dramatic decline in real terms. We have been talking about selective, self-financing tax cuts.

The Taoiseach has two minutes to reply.

That will be very difficult. Deputy O'Kennedy gave some figures but the correct figure is £282,500,000: the Deputy got a provisional figure today. There is a diversion to diesel and to auto PGL to a lesser degree which is distorting the figures, as well as the general decline in consumer expenditure. To reply to the point made by Deputy MacSharry, the figure for excise is 8.1 and for VAT 1.9. I have not to hand the figures in relation to other countries and I cannot answer the question at the moment.

Give a guess.

I would say we are near the top of the band.

When the Taoiseach has the figures will he circulate them for general information?

Certainly. At any rate we are nearer the top and the Deputy is right in saying our rates are very high. Basically our problem is that we are faced with the difficulty that we had a Government who pushed up expenditure by 40 per cent in real terms in four years——

What are the Government doing now?

Taxes have to be raised to pay for that. The taxes we are levying at present leave a deficit of £1.2 billion. The extent to which we are not taking to pay the full amount of the increased expenditure by Fianna Fáil in those four years has meant that we are short £1.2 billion. The inevitable result is that we are having levels of tax that are inordinately high vis-à-vis our neighbour, Northern Ireland, and other countries. That is the inevitable consequence of the policy followed by Fianna Fáil. We are trying within those limits——

It is now 8.15 p.m. and I must put the question.

I should like to have replied to Deputy Blaney and perhaps the Chair will allow me to answer one point he made. With regard to the strength of beer, the Deputy is correct. Beer of a lesser strength is imported from Scotland to Northern Ireland and people are buying the beer thinking it is the same strength. The Deputy was quite right to raise the point.

I must put the question now.

I have received a number of requests from Deputies from all sides of the House to ensure formality in the taking of divisions and I propose to do that.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputies please be seated in their seats and those in the lobbies and in the House please be silent.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 81; Níl, 76.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Blaney, Neil Terence.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett (Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Barrett (Dublin North-West).
Question declared carried.
Financial Resolution agreed to.
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