Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 May 1985

Vol. 357 No. 12

Report of National Youth Policy Committee: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Dail Éireann takes note of the Final Report of the National Youth Policy Committee which was laid before the House on 10 October 1984.

—(Minister of State at the Department of Labour.)

Proinsias De Rossa

Before Question Time I said there was a contradiction between this Government making all kinds of fancy declarations about their concern for youth and what they would do in relation to youth policy and, at the same time, pursuing, through the Minister for Justice, a policy of simply locking away young people with problems. The report of the National Youth Policy Committee states there is a clear link between disadvantaged youth and the number of young people who come before our courts.

In the Estimates a sum of £165,000 out of an Estimate of £300 million for the Department of Justice was set aside for educational facilities in our prisons, that is something slightly more than 0.05 per cent of the total Estimate for the Department of Justice. Now the Minister turns around and closes down the educational facilities in Cork and in Arbour Hill without any discussion beforehand and without making adequate alternative arrangements to ensure that the education and rehabilitative process that is involved in education in prisons can be pursued. It is a fact that between 30 per cent and 40 per cent of the inmates of our prisoners are illiterate and the vast majority of the prison population are young people. Thus, there is a clear contradiction of objective between what the Minister here will presumably be talking about and what the Minister for Justice is doing.

There has been a hue and cry for what can only be described as revenge against those who engaged in joyriding. While I can sympathise with those who feel anger against the young people, it has to be said by responsible people in this House that anger and revenge against young people involved in these activities is not the answer and the report we are discussing today makes that clear. Even if action has been taken to take the young people who are at present engaged in these activities off the streets, what is being done by this Minister, the Minister for Justice or any other Minister to ensure that the next generation, the 12, 13 and 14 year olds, will not in the next six months or a year emulate their older brothers in pursuing their activities?

I am involved in a project in the Finglas area called the motor project and I have met the Minister in that connection. He has very kindly sanctioned the expenditure of money in relation to the project, but unfortunately we can find no one who will accept responsibility for it. The Department of Justice say they are not interested, that it is not of their concern because the young people with whom we will be dealing have not yet come in contact with the law. We have been in touch with AnCO. While at first they said they would be interested in assisting, they say now that they are not concerned with this project in which we are involved because it is not training for work.

The project is an attempt to get young people between the ages of 14 and 18, who have an interest in cars, who clearly have demonstrated that interest in cars in various ways, into a controlled environment in which not only will their interest in cars be fulfilled in that they will be allowed to strip them, rebuild them and race them on stock car tracks and so on, but will also be engaged in courses for personal development. I endeavoured to contact the Minister yesterday to arrange a meeting with him about this. Perhaps at this point he would make a note of the fact that I am endeavouring to meet him, to discuss this project with him, to try to get some movement on this project in Finglas. It is my view and that of a lot of people concerned in the area that it could have beneficial effects in really reducing the problem of car stealing and joyriding in a practical way.

Minister of State at the Department of Labour (Mr. G. Birmingham)

I am aware of the Deputy's interest and likewise that of Deputy Mary Flaherty, having met him before. I will be willing to meet the Deputy next week to sort out any remaining teething problems.

Proinsias De Rossa

Perhaps the Minister would arrange for his secretary to telephone me when we can arrange a time. I appreciate that very much.

When responding perhaps the Minister would indicate when the Government will publish their policy on youth. We have a report before us now. The Government have had considerable time in which to consider it. There are not only Deputies in this House but very many youth organisations around the country patiently waiting to hear what exactly the Government will do in relation to this report.

Mr. Yates

I understand this is a fairly limited debate and I shall be brief. As this House will be aware, we were due to speak some months ago on this matter. This report has been hanging around a long time and I suppose, through pressures on Dáil time, delay has arisen. Taking up Deputy De Rossa's last point, it is very important that the Oireachtas have a contribution in relation to national youth policy. I would hope that Dáil procedures and time problems would not be advanced as an excuse for delay in responding.

I welcome this Costello Committee Report. It is important that it be endorsed by this House. There have been many clichés about 1985 being International Youth Year. It is significantly important in Ireland, when one looks at our demographic situation and spread of population, that we should be particularly interested in young people. Forty eight per cent of our population is under 25 and that must be viewed in the context that the EC average for under 25 population is 36 per cent. If we study these figures even further we will see that the population between the ages of 15 and 24 comprises 18 per cent of the total. If one goes further one will see that the percentage of population under 14 years of age is diminishing because of the diminishing birth rate. It looks as though we have more young adults who are changing the future shape of Irish society. It is very important that there be a political response to these changes if we are to avoid the type of alienation about which Deputy De Rossa spoke.

Young people today — and I can say it as one of them at 25 years of age, although ageing rapidly — are abused in many ways. They are abused by politicians in the sense of being given lip service only. They are alleged to be our greatest national asset and so on. To some extent this is inaccurate and unfair. If the challenge that young people in their numbers represent is not harnessed in a constructive and positive way they will not then constitute a national asset. Young people today are subjected to pressures to which no previous generation were subjected. They are subject to pressures in the work place because of displacement of employment through technology. We have seen, and will continue to see, a whole series of white collar jobs, clerical and administrative posts, abolished and disintegrated because of information technology and automation.

Similarly we can see that young people are totally forgotten about. I might give a specific example. Let us take the banks. The banks are introducing new technology which involves displacement of jobs. What do the banks do? Their trade unions negotiate a specific deal to protect their members, to get bonuses and so on, and at what price? The price is an embargo on recruitment. Therefore the people in a job are all right but the people who really pay the price, through lack of recruitment, are the young people, who have no voice. The fact that they have no representation — and the same applies to the public service embargo — means that the existing trade unions and employers do not take account of young people as far as that goes.

Then there are new pressures in regard to the points system in the leaving certificate and the huge numbers of applicants for places in third level educational establishments of any kind. There is also parental pressure in that parents always want the next generation to do better than they did. I remember listening to one middle class lady who said she would make all her sons and daughters professionals if it killed her. That places enormous pressure on young people, pressure based purely on a fallacious social stigma. Young people are also exposed more to foreign cultures than were previous generation. These are not all bad foreign cultures — whether that be drugs, the beat music and so on, some of which is terrific. But there are new dangers to which young people are exposed as never before.

When we politicians and political parties generally come to weigh up this report we must be alarmed to see, in chapter 6 of the MRBI poll taken in February 1984, that, of all the different groups to which young people look to understand them or to listen to them, politicians rated low, showing 1 per cent only active involvement in politics. Of all the people, clergy, teachers or whoever, politicians ranked lowest. There is a sense of alienation from the system. That is the challenge we face.

It was interesting to note that two members only of a committee of 23 were young people. I am not saying that the membership of the committee was not of the finest calibre and so on. But there is often a patronising attitude to young people, the feeling that older people only know best. The first change we must effect is not merely to look at young people as social partners in the cliché sense but to go the whole hog. This means that, whether one is setting up an advisory committee to deal with drugs abuse, a committee to deal with super-levy problems, whether it be Taoiseach's nominees to the Seanad, setting up taxation commissions or whatever, we must appoint young people. I am not advocating that we should first make token appointments merely appointing someone from the Students Union, someone else from the National Youth Council of Ireland or from the National Federation. There are young people with bright ideas who are alleged not to have a head on their shoulders, to be inexperienced, who are put down because they are young. I would contend that those people are more innovative, have more to offer society than could be ever recognised. In our overall selection procedures and appointments we should try to involve young farmers from, say, Macra na Féirme in the super-levy committees, likewise young accountants with new ideas to taxation committees. Perhaps they have just graduated, are faced with a supply and demand situation and find themselves on the wrong side. Young people do not accept the status quo; they look for new ideas and new developments. There must be political participation at the highest level through the appointment of young people, while at the same time avoiding youth politics and tokenism. There are young people in every profession who could fill this criteria.

This report regrettably does not deal to any great extent with youth, youth employment and unemployment. There are 15,000 young school leavers going on to the jobs market each year and our society has never had to deal with that on such a large scale before. The report does not have a full analysis of the existing training and placement schemes of AnCO, CERT, the YEA and the NMS. This is of major concern to young people. It was unfortunate that the opportunity was missed to point out the huge number of young people with nothing to do. Young people do not fit into the category of those who do not want to work. They are independent, well-educated and ambitious. They do not want to be discarded. A dual social and employment programme should have been drawn up in that report so that we could pick out voluntary bodies to do valuable social work or pick out social needs.

For instance, we could have said that by 1985 it is reasonable that every person would have a toilet in their house, or some such social equivalent, and that young people would be recruited to enlist with the St. Vincent De Paul Society or with local community groups who are starved of manpower resources to provide that sort of sanitary facility. I accept that the teamwork scheme helps voluntary organisations but there is union resistance in the construction sector to drawing up a scheme whereby young people would be involved, for instance, in helping elderly people with house renovations and so on. This is the same as my previous story about the banks and the recruitment embargo. It is not right that unions can stop defenceless young people from getting employment and providing a dual social need simply because it will affect the union membership. Even though one could say that YEA funding comes from those members, it must be remembered that we have obligations to young people that extends a way beyond lip service. The Minister of State, Deputy Birmingham, is very committed in this area and I would like to see him taking responsibility in the Department to deal with union resistance.

The best part of the report is the recommendation in relation to the National Youth Service. I welcome the establishment by the Government of a National Youth Service. Such a service must be community based; it must be based at parish level; it must focus on the 16 to 21 year age group; and it must have the necessary financial resources to provide facilities equipment and people. If it does not have the resources it will not work. Voluntary enthusiasm goes 90 per cent of the way but without the resources the other 10 per cent will not be attained. To date we owe a great debt of gratitude to the voluntary organisations who have done so much for our youth. They have stood almost alone in providing youth services. We must harness the voluntary and State efforts nationally and locally, not with elaborate structures, not by nationalising youth services, but by providing the back-up assistance and co-ordination to the voluntary bodies in an organised way.

We must also involve parents and post-primary schools. It is important that before young people are independent they are encouraged to participate in youth services at school level. The National Youth Service must promote awareness in the social, political, economic and cultural context. There is a great weakness in young people in terms of their inexperience when leaving school. Many of them do not know how PRSI works and do not know how to get involved in anything. They are not taught commonsense. They do not know how the "Yellow pages" work for instance. There are simple things which they do not know. That sort of weakness is overcome with experience. Combatting this weakness must be one of the aims of the National Youth Service and another must be to encourage participation in the community, in social action and in sporting and other activities that have an effect in relation to socialising and developing one's character. The National Youth Service must also cater for the special needs in the area of drug or alcohol abuse, deprivation and the needs of the handicapped and the disabled.

I welcome the structures of the National Youth Service as set out in this report, but the emphasis must be on a voluntary youth service with a State back-up as opposed to nationalising the youth service. I disagree with the committee: the advisory committee should be dropped. The best feedback one can get is from the local committees to the central structure at national level. We do not need a further advisory committee on top of that. The more layers we apply to these structures the more cumbersome the service will be.

Basically young people go through three phases in adolescence. First is a separation from their parents, the second is a transition in which they are no longer children but are not accepted as adults, and the third phase is when they reach majority and are in a position to get a mortgage, a job and so on. The National Youth Service must take account of all these aspects of development. I would ask the Minister to study the work done by the Ferns Diocesan Youth Service. They drew up a report on the needs of young people in County Wexford on a non-denominational basis. They went into all the aspects of the needs of young people and what needs to be done on the ground.

When talking about youth service we tend to get into nebulous and intangible areas where the jargon takes over from reality. I would hope for clear guidelines in terms of the modus operandi of the National Youth Service and its local committees, that would revolve around youth association, personal development and active participation. The Government should consult with the youth committee and give it the teeth to operate and implement its wishes by providing the cash and personnel resources. A clear time table should be established for the development of a national youth policy. There should not be a recurrence of the trend where surplus funding for the Youth Employment Agency is returned to the Exchequer. It should be clearly earmarked for national youth services.

In relation to the educational system, our post-primary educational system is very weak in that it does not educate for life. In certain areas there is also a lack of remedial education for disadvantaged people. We have noted that the developments in terms of the revision of the curriculum and exam board. As part of youth policy development there should be compulsory civics education in the same category as career guidance. The need for it is understated and, as I stated before, there is an awareness of life that goes beyond where the Amazon runs in Brazil and the history of Europe. This needs to be developed. By drawing in the schools we will establish a strong link between them and the youth services. I notice that there is a strong emphasis in the Report on the role of the VECs. I do not think that the primary emphasis of youth policy at local level should be under the VECs. It should be on the voluntary membership of the local youth committees.

The Minister of State should pursue with his colleagues in Government another failing of the post primary education system in terms of career guidance and jobs. Everybody is encouraged to follow a profession or a career. Nobody encourages young people to start their own business or become self-employed. I would like to see a simple incentive system introduced whereby young people between 16 and 24 years of age who registered as self-employed be included under Schedule D and be tax free. The career guidance teachers could tell such people that if they set up a business of their own, if they become chimney sweeps, set up creche facilities or a small business of any type they would be encouraged to get started by being exempt from taxation.

I should like to welcome the national forum established and the introduction of the Presidential awards. It is important that we get private sector funding involved in youth activity. I note that one of the projects has been launched and the other is in the process of being launched. They serve separate functions and are to be commended. I hope the State gives them the necessary back-up. The response of the Government to previous reports, not only in the youth area, has been fairly negative and reports have been allowed to gather dust. We had the O'Sullivan report on youth affairs in 1980 under a previous Government but we do not have a Minister for youth affairs yet. I am not saying that such an appointment is desirable but the failure to appoint such a Minister is symptomatic of the response in relation to the overall needs of young people. It is because they are not a vested interest as such that they lose out. I should like to make three requests: that the Government establish the national youth service in 1985, that the Government seek to reform the post primary education system to ensure it caters for and is more attuned to young people's needs in the youth area, and that the Government look at direct youth job schemes as well as youth training and placement schemes specifically meeting dual social needs at the same time.

Miss Flaherty

I will start, where the last two speakers finished, by expressing my concern that the report should not be allowed to sit on a shelf. Its recommendations should be implemented immediately. The narrowest of political motives are there for any Irish political party to adopt that attitude but the spirit of the report is very impressive and demands a response of depth and immediacy as is contained in its own expression of commitment and portrayal of young people in Ireland being ready and waiting to be directed. Young people are waiting to be channelled in a direction which will be of benefit to themselves and to the community as a whole. The report is a useful document and I should like to comment on three areas of emphasis in it. The importance of training for democracy permeates every section of the report. That is an important area. We are at a juncture where, despite the pressures on young people, they have confidence in the future and are resilient in the face of such challenges as unemployment and drugs. Young people emerge from this close study as people who will face the future with confidence.

On the other hand, the report emphasises that, while young people have a commitment to democracy, they are deeply concerned about the area of employment in particular. It is vitally important that politicians who rate so low on the list of those young people consider capable of listening and responding to their needs should respond to those deep concerns lest that confidence, trust and co-operation is lost. It will be lost if we fail to respond to the priorities they have clearly outlined. There is an interesting comment in the report which indicates that, while young people are committed to democracy, they do not have a deep understanding of what democracy is. In that context there is a need to ensure that we respond to the legitimately expressed and deeply felt concerns they have. We must do so in a way that alleviates frustration and does not encourage them to turn to other ways to relieve that frustration. We must respond if we are to ensure that optimism, co-operation and confidence is retained.

How do we achieve that? Action is needed on many fronts. I have great confidence in the commitment and ability of the Minister of State in this area. He has an important role to play in liaising with other Departments. Every chapter of the report requests that all Departments get involved, in particular the Departments of Education and Justice. It is important that from the moment a young person is open to socialising in school certain policies, approaches and principles about how they are treated are put forward their development should be encouraged. In the report the young people identified the lack of opportunities for participation as one of their biggest problems in influencing their own environment. That is true in particular of schools. A clear need is expressed in the report for school authorities who have inadequately responded to the need for young people to participate to establish school committees on which young people can participate and begin to share in the process of controlling their own lives. Young people should at an early age be encouraged to make decisions and, by taking responsibility, be helped to develop an understanding of the complexity of problems and issues that face them to the benefit of school and society. It is important, as the report stresses, that young people learn to cope with the media and the massive role it plays in their lives.

A good deal has been achieved at Government level. The Taoiseach made an offer of social partnership at an early stage after being elected to the office of Taoiseach and he has lived up to that offer to a great extent. The way that commitment will be finally tested will be on the practical outcome from the publication of the report and the debate that followed it. We must include young people at all levels of political decision-making. We must include suitably qualified young people on all boards. I welcome the appointment of such a suitably qualified young person on the local radio board which will prepare the way for local radio. It is appropriate that a young person should be appointed to that board because it is a medium which has a great influence on their lives.

I was heartened by the emphasis in the report on disadvantaged young people. Deputy De Rossa also identified that area and related it to the current intense debate on young offenders who engage in so-called joyriding. It is of great relevance to that matter. It is no accident that almost half of the report is devoted to identifying this group and emphasising it. While the vast bulk of Irish young people feel that they have a reasonable opportunity of controlling and being involved in their future and will have a reasonably satisfactory life, a large minority have not that optimism about their future or that expectation about a quality of life or control over their environment that might lead them to have respect or confidence in their community. While that continues we must realise that we have within our system an injustice which will inevitably cause continuing problems in youth crime and alienation.

The action emphasised and requested by the report in that area which is particularly valuable is the extension of the school attendance officer scheme. That scheme as applied in limited areas apparently needs to be expanded because it provides a useful early warning mechanism for young people who are likely to be disaffected or get into trouble. Dropouts from school have been identified as those most likely to come into serious difficulty. Urban and suburban areas where crime is largely to be found and concentrated should have this service available as a useful early warning mechanism for young people. However, there is no point in having an early warning mechanism unless some alternative educational unit or training project designed to involve such young people is provided, and if the school attendance officer is involved, then clearly it involves the young person who has dropped out of the conventional educational system. We must accept that there are young people for whom that system is totally unacceptable and who are not at home in even the most experimental main line secondary educational centres and for such people there is a great need of alternative types of school.

The report identifies a couple of experiments with which I am very familiar. One is the youth encounter project in the Finglas area which is a second level schooling system for early dropouts. This provides fulltime training in education and personal development courses for perhaps 20 young people in a year who are referred to the school by a variety of agencies. This project has proved to be very successful in stabilising these young people and helping them to form attachments and preventing them from moving into areas of crime. This youth employment project is experimental on a pilot basis and its future has been in question for perhaps two years at this stage. The final assessment on this project was done over 12 months ago and a decision on its future was to be made, yet it hangs in limbo getting an extension every six months. The report here in two or three sections dealing particularly with disadvantaged young people identifies the importance of such local experiments tailored to such local needs and comes out strongly in favour of them. The Minister of State should use his good offices with the Department of Education to ensure that this scheme is retained and extended. I have pressed in the Dáil for the extension of this scheme to other areas in my constituency, including Ballymun where a need for such a project has been identified by local people involved in education dealing with young people who are not at home in any of the more traditional schooling situations. I make a strong appeal to the Minister of State in his capacity as Minister for Youth affairs, Deputy Birmingham, to do what he can to outline to the Department of Education the importance given in this report to these experiments by many people concerned with our youth.

Deputy De Rossa referred to the motor project also in the Finglas area which has run into difficulty. This project is aimed at finding young people who might be at risk. It would not be suitable for the hardened offender but it might be suitable for young people who could be identified as being at risk, and it offers them a year's training in mechanics and also personal development and educational training. This project got the green light from Deputy Birmingham eight or nine months ago yet it has run into bureaucratic difficulties in finding an adopting agency. AnCO, the Department of Justice and the Youth Employment Agency cannot see that this type of project should be taken on by them. The Minister has agreed to meet that group again, and I welcome that commitment. I hope a way around this difficulty can be found. Such projects as these have proved successful in Britain and in Belfast and have been identified by people working and living in the local areas, as being a desirable preventive programme. Whether it would be more appropriately the responsibility of the Department of Justice is difficult to say, but the Minister of State could concern himself with it. His support in seeing this project to a successful conclusion — perhaps I should say commencement — would be very valuable.

Another development which occurred since the Minister of State took office was the establishment on a formal basis of the youth officer scheme in local areas. Initially this occurred in a very ad hoc fashion and as moneys became available it depended on what community was best organised and had the most effective programme ready which frequently was not the area of greatest need. This report emphasises again and again that, whatever resources we have at our disposal in the development of youth services, priority should be given to areas of identified disadvantage. I was very heartened by the early decision of the Minister of State when extra funds for this scheme became available and were allocated with these priorities in mind. Areas of particular need were identified and were allocated these funds for the appointment of youth officers there. This is a desirable development which needs to be implemented throughout the youth services as called for in the youth report.

The role of the mainline services — this is jargon which I have in my vocabulary for the first time — is extremely important. All our young people currently, not just those at disadvantage, are facing unusual pressure. The biggest problem facing them is unemployment, jobs and the question mark that hangs over that ticket to adult life for them in the future.

In that context in the short term it is important that such mainline youth services as are there should be developed on a comprehensive basis throughout the country and should be well planned. This need for a comprehensive service properly planned is underlined again and again throughout the report. From my experience of the needs of individual communities I feel it is absolutely essential that the establishment of such a service must be a statutory obligation on some sponsor agency within each community. It is not good enough that, as happens in so many cases and so many services, the better organised and more articulate get the lion's share of whatever service or scheme is going while the scheme might be aimed in another direction or at another target group.

Like others I was very interested in the section on values and attitudes. There is no great consolation in it for politicians who are at the end of the league, but as a teacher who was second highest in the league, it is extraordinary how in a general election one can go from the top to the bottom of a league, even though as far as you know you have not changed significantly. Obviously this is something to do with the general role perception rather than the individual.

It is very important that we listen, and that we learn to listen, to young people. This is very important to those who are seriously committed to democracy and to retaining an organisation of society which we value and which we believe is the best way to run society, taking into account all the political options. If we fail young people we may predispose them to turn from the democratic system and move in another direction. In this report and the studies on which it was based the biggest worry has been identified as unemployment and the need for young people to find a useful way of fulfilling themselves and contributing to society. In that they reflect a national concern. With our age pattern, it is an even bigger problem for our young people and for the future.

There has been progress in this area with the development of the team work scheme and the social employment scheme but I am certain that this is not enough. These schemes are helpful and beneficial but, as a Government, we must look at ways to create jobs. We cannot tolerate a situation in which so many young people have identified employment as a major priority but are left facing the prospect of unemployment in the immediate future. We must come up with further new policies in this area which will radically alter the prospects for young people. This will mean difficult choices and people making sacrifices but this must be done as a matter of urgency. The greatest message from this report is that young people want action and they want changes made and this has been spelled out very clearly as one of their main priorities.

I take some encouragement from the fact that today in Dublin the Minister for Justice is announcing the details of a Bill to abolish the status of illegitimacy. The Government identified early in their term of office the ideal of social partnership and involving young people. They have struggled in recent months to respond to another priority of young people, social justice, by bringing in legislation which was controversial and difficult and, more than any other government, they have succeeded in doing this. I am very happy that today marks another milestone with the publication of this Bill which will abolish the legal status of illegitimacy, and henceforth that word will be abolished from Irish law and all future legislation.

This is an act of faith in the political organisation to which I belong, Young Fine Gael. This is an act of faith in their existence and will be a great encouragement to them because they will feel that their political involvement and identification of this issue which was one of the first they sponsored, has been successful, has had an impact, has been heard and will be seen to be affecting a change in the lives of thousands of children and their families. I hope young people will feel that we are learning to respond to the priorities they establish.

Mr. Browne

I welcome this very comprehensive and detailed report which is a sound basis for any Government to set up a constructive youth policy. Deputy Flaherty spoke about young people's attitude towards politicians. I find they have a very cynical attitude towards politicians and political parties. They see us as living in ivory towers, unaware of what is happening to them. They also see us as well paid people who could not care about the youth. They see us as doing a lot of talking and paying lip service but not taking action by coming up with solutions to the problems they face. Young people are looking for guidance and leadership. While I appreciate that the Minister is doing his best, as far as I am concerned he is not getting the financial help he deserves to bring about long term solutions to our unemployment problems.

Unemployment is a major problem. This is one topic about which we come into this House week after week. We say we must create jobs for our young people and do something about the unemployment problem. This is leading to many social problems. I believe many social problems relating to young people are linked to unemployment. There are 70,000 young people unemployed, most of them highly educated, talented and looking for a future. They would like to play a part in developing the Ireland they want in the future. Unfortunately, politicians and political parties over the past number of years have not come up with any sound solutions to these problems.

We have youth schemes, the YEA, AnCO, CERT, Manpower teamwork, social employment schemes and so on, all tied up with bureaucracy and red tape but under different Departments. There is confusion among young people about these schemes. If the Minister can sort out these schemes and bring them under one umbrella, even his own control, he will be doing a good job. Then he can say which schemes are the most valuable or essential to tackle the unemployment problems. Some of these schemes come under the Department of Education, others under the Department of Labour and so on. I agree with Deputy Yates that if there were one Minister in charge of youth he might find a solution to unemployment.

Some of those schemes are welcome, particularly the teamwork scheme. I hope the Minister will develop it and encourage local organisations to participate. There is a tendency to say that it must be operated by the county council or the urban council but I do not think this was the initial idea. Voluntary organisations in parishes and towns should be asked to suggest schemes. It seems that the money is available and that the Minister is prepared to cut out bureaucracy and red tape. I hope he will embark on a programme to encourage organisations to become involved and provide jobs for young people.

Voluntary organisations have not been given sufficient support. Many people see the GAA as a well-heeled, rich organisation. That may be so at top level in Dublin but in the rural parishes most of the GAA organisations have built their own community and social centres and developed their own pitches, in many cases funded 100 per cent by voluntary subscriptions from local people. The greatest social workers we have are the people who look after the juveniles and the minors in GAA clubs throughout the country. If the GAA disappeared in the morning it would take millions of pounds to replace them in the area of voluntary social work.

The GAA have asked successive Governments to remove VAT on hurleys. Perhaps I am putting too great an onus on the Minister but I would ask him to use his influence to have VAT removed from hurleys.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

You are in the wrong field now.

Mr. Browne

I am reminding the Minister of the essentials and I am sure he has influence with the Department of Finance. The voluntary organisations are deeply involved in youth work and there is a need for qualified youth officers to assist them. It is essential to educate these officers to play a positive role, particularly in urban areas.

There is a need for radical change in the education system. This is an era of rapid technological development, coupled with shifting patterns of job expectation and mobility. Education, in addition to its traditional task of preparation for life, must increasingly prepare people for work. There should be closer links between the schools and the world of work at all stages in the curriculum, based on the idea of the school and the community as a integrated whole. The schools have a more positive role to play in relation to young people who are trying to find jobs. There should be more cooperation between teachers and young people after they have left school because they find it very difficult to acclimatise to the outside world where, in many cases, they are unable to find a job or a way to spend their time.

Idleness must eventually lead to a breakdown in our democratic system. crime, vandalism and lawlessness among young people are all related to unemployment. We talk about Spike Island and building more jails but that is not the answer. I hope that the Minister for Justice does not intend to put young people into those jails. If they get into trouble they should be made to serve their sentences within the community by working for the local authority or local voluntary organisations. They should not be put into the company of hardened criminals. They should be assisted to readjust by looking after senior citizens or doing other voluntary work on the streets or in community centres in the locality.

Blame is often put on politicians and those involved in voluntary work. My opinion is that parents have become too soft and easy going with their children. They should play a far more positive role instead of leaving the responsibility to voluntary organisations and political parties, particularly in these times of recession and high unemployment.

Teachers in schools cannot lay a finger on children because of the ban on corporal punishment — a disastrous mistake. In many cases teachers are afraid to discipline young people. It does not do them any harm to be severely punished when they deserve it. It did not do us any harm and I do not see any reason why today's young people should not be properly dealt with. Teachers and parents should take a tougher stand with young people who step out of line.

This is the third report since 1977 but no Government have seen fit to implement the recommendations and develop a constructive policy for the benefit of young people. The previous speaker spoke about dust gathering on the reports. I hope this report will not be left on the shelf but will be used as the basis of a comprehensive youth policy. Time is running out and young people are becoming impatient and frustrated, demanding effective action by those in high places. We have a duty to encourage our young people and provide a way forward. They want hope for the future and the dignity of a job which is the right of any citizen. It is difficult to provide jobs for all but we should be able to provide some long-term jobs and utilise the vast talent which is available.

In the mid-sixties a comprehensive educational system was introduced whereby every young person, regardless of class or creed, would have the right to a second and third level education. We should now be reaping the benefits of that policy but unfortunately those highly educated people are unable to find jobs and make a contribution to society. If we are to protect the democratic system we must find a solution. I hope that the Minister during whatever time in office remains to him——

Mr. G. Birmingham

Years.

Mr. Browne

——will use his influence and the vast talents available to him to come up with a comprehensive youth policy which will offer some hope to young people. I know it is difficult for him because he is being penalised by not getting the money essential to tackle the problem of drug abuse, crime, vandalism, education and unemployment, which is our greatest problem. Unless these problems are tackled, we will continue to have social problems related to unemployment.

As this is International Youth Year, I hope that the Government will come up with something definite and positive in relation to establishing a youth policy which is relevant to young people. We cannot afford to fail our young people any longer because at present they are frustrated and disillusioned with political parties. Politicians should be honest with them and offer a comprehensive policy for the future.

Mr. Durkan

I should like to mention the importance of the report in the context of the vast number of young people and we should take a special interest in their affairs. From reading the report, one cannot but be struck by the fact that young people have certain attitudes towards institutions and politicians. Perhaps it is our fault, perhaps it is theirs, but it is a fact that young people today do not have a great deal of confidence in the system. One of the reasons for this is that, in terms of youth, a person's life is very short. Young people tend to look back over a couple of years and to look forward a couple of years and to judge the institutions of the State on the basis of what they see during this time. Older people have the ability to look further ahead and further back and judge on all performances and factors relating to the young, middleaged and elderly.

It is up to the institutions of State, Members of this House and all those in public life to try to engender in the young a sense of acknowledgement of their position and also, as the last speaker said, to try to ensure that young people accept that what is done is for the best. How can we do this? Perhaps our performances in this House are not a great example but it is up to us to change that because young people in general are sincere and they take people at their word. Having given them our word, they are quickly disillusioned if what should naturally follow does not take place. We must address ourselves to this problem because, although there are flaws in all systems and perhaps ours is not ideal, it should be pointed out that there are worse systems than the democratic one. Young people need the inspiration and the indication from us that this is the case.

The major problem facing young people today is securing employment. There are a vast number of schemes available at present and I ask the Minister to take a special interest this year to ensure there is maximum utilisation of all schemes in order to provide as many job opportunities as possible. If young people are often highly educated, competent and intelligent, it automatically follows that we cannot condemn them for too long to the unemployment queues. If we do that we break their spirit and undermine their confidence, not only in themselves but in the institutions of State and ourselves.

Further improvements in the area of job opportunities will and must have a vast impact on the crime rate. I always maintain that if there is something positive to be done, young people will not sit back. They normally want to be involved and, if they are occupied, they will not have time to be involved in lawlessness or vandalism. We as the major institution of the State, have a duty to ensure, in so far as we can, that every young person coming out of school has some form of employment, even if temporary, so that they will not have time on their hands with nothing to do.

We should be wary of giving young people the impression that they are the first generation to be young. We sometimes seem to forget that there have been countless generations of young people and each generation feels that they are the first to throw new light on the problems. That may be true up to a point but everything is relevant and other generations have felt exactly the same. It is not the first time there has been a youth problem, here or elsewhere, or that large numbers of young people are looking for inspiration, jobs and leadership. This has always been the case and if we do our job of inspiring, giving them leadership and doing our utmost not to con them with political waffle, that is the single biggest contribution we can make to the young. It would instill in them the confidence which they should and must have in the system.

Minister of State at the Department of Labour, and at the Department of Education (Mr. G. Birmingham)

I should like to thank all those who contributed to the debate. It has been somewhat fragmented but, notwithstanding that, it has been very helpful and healthy and the quality of contributions was extraordinarily high. It is of some interest that the debate lacked the partisanship which sometimes dominates proceedings in this House. It was also interesting to see a number of Members drawing on their personal experiences of different youth organisations active in their home areas. Deputy Allen mentioned the work of Ógra Corcaigh and Deputy Yates and Deputy Browne clearly were conscious of the activities of the Ferns Diocesan Service. That indicates the extent of the impact which the voluntary youth sector is having on the life of the community it serves.

I am pleased that all contributors welcomed the report, although I am not surprised. At the start of the debate there was some confusion when Deputies Fahey and De Rossa expressed disappointment that I did not say that I had a response — the tablets of stone regarding what we are going to do. That was never intended to be the nature of this debate. When the Government entered office we did so on the basis of a pre-set timetable which indicated the steps we would take in preparing a national youth policy. That involved responding to a number of particular and specific needs which were then facing youth organisations. In particular one remembers their underfunding at the time and the threat hanging over the development officer scheme. It was essential, in order to win the trust and confidence of youth organisations, to participate in this process. That was done. We promised that we would then begin the process by publishing a discussion paper which would simply ask questions. We did that. Then we said we would establish a high-ranking committee. We had indicated what the approximate composition would be, drawn from young people, various Departments which serve young people and the various bodies which relate to young people. That was done. It is their work that we have been considering over the two days of this debate. I want to assure Members of the House that the Government are on target and will be publishing their report sooner rather than later.

A number of Members, perhaps drawing on the experience of some other Administrations and some other reports, expressed concern about the possibility that this report might sit on the shelf. They went on to say it would have company on the shelf. I want to assure Deputies that that is not the intention, and that that will not happen. As evidence of that, I point to the fact that, to a very substantial extent, the Government have already responded to the thrust of this report and, in many instances, anticipated the contents of this report. I instance the reintroduction of capital grants for recreational and community facilities. I instance the extended funding which will be available this year to support youth work and, in particular, the emphasis which has been placed, in accordance with the whole philosophy and ethos of this report, by the Government on the needs of the disadvantaged.

One slightly unfortunate aspect of this debate has been some tendency on the part of people to blame the committee for not doing something they were never asked to do. A number of Members of the House began their contributions by asking the most important problem facing young people is employment. That is unquestionably the case. It was recognised in a most specific and stark manner by the National Youth Policy Committee. They then went on to express disappointment that the committee did not address that subject in any great detail and did not suggest a solution. It is a little unfair to blame the group for not doing something they were never expected to do, nor could they have been expected to do it. By their very composition that should have been always apparent.

The report says in the clearest and most chilling terms what our responsibilities are. The report points to the real danger of our emerging into a two-class society: those who are in employment, professional classes and bureaucrats; and then it paints the picture of another class emerging living in the newer outer suburbs, permanently cut off from the prospect of participation in the paid economy.

A number of Members then went on to talk about the role of a number of the youth employment schemes. I was very pleased to hear the general welcome given to the operation of the teamwork scheme so recently introduced. I have been gratified, not to say astounded, by the flood of applications received by my Department following its launching. It testifies to the strength of community spirit that so many groups are prepared to come forward with proposals of benefit to their community and, at the same time, providing worthwhile employment even if temporary employment for young people.

Deputy Yates invited me to address the question of trade union resistance and he suggested I should do this head on. That may be due to the impetuousity of his youth and it may be that my advancing middle age disinclines me from taking people head on. On the basis of two years' experience in the Department of Labour, I do not think that is the way to make progress. Of course it varies from one part of the country to another but, in general, the response of the trade union movement has been very sympathetic and very understanding to the various special measures which have been announced.

There was a difficulty with regard to the construction area. Given the difficulties that sector has faced in recent years, perhaps that is understandable. In any event, it was the area where the difficulties in monitoring and ensuring that the young people participating received valuable experience were greatest. The solution which has now been arrived at whereby any activity in that area is conducted under the auspices of AnCO is a very reasonable compromise. There remains an enormous range of activity which is available. Members of this House have a role to play in drawing it to the attention of any groups in their community who might be potential beneficiaries.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has five minutes.

Mr. G. Birmingham

On the basis that I have only five minutes it is not possible for me to respond to all the points raised. I will respond to some of them on an individual basis later in writing if necessary. One comment made by Deputy Fahey struck me as being significant. It was the first public call of this nature. I should like to endorse it. He expressed the hope that all youth organisations would come together and work in harmony under the National Youth Council. I welcome that call. I think it was Brendan Behan who commented that the first item on the agenda of any Irish grouping was always a split. It would be a fine example for those involved in the whole area of youth work if they were to come together under one umbrella in harmony. That would be a very appropriate response during International Youth Year. In saying that, I am aware of the fact that many of the organisations inside the council and some of those outside it have their own ethos, their own traditions and their own sensitivities. With goodwill and a spirit of compromise on all sides, it should be possible to achieve what Deputy Fahey desired and what I would like to see happening.

Another constant theme — and I suppose it would be easy to sit back and be flattered by it — was a suggestion from a number of Deputies: "There he is. He is doing his best and trying very hard, but no one is backing him. The big bad Taoiseach, the big bad Minister for Finance and the rest of the Government are leaving him there high and dry." That is not so. One thing which has constantly strengthened me over the past two and a half years is the unfailing support which has been given to me by all my colleagues and more specifically by the Taoiseach whose personal commitment in this area is second to none. The most cogent and compelling evidence of that is in the pounds, shillings and pence, the extent to which the Government have honoured their commitment to regard the voluntary youth service as a priority. They have increased funding very substantially. Since this debate was so lacking in partisanship, it would be quite invidious to try to draw comparisons. I will restrain myself from the temptation.

On the question of pounds, shillings and pence, I want to say one thing about a comment made by Deputy De Rossa in a fine contribution. He deviated a little when he addressed himself to the question of the President's award scheme. He suggested that some money which had been promised in the budget had been pilfered, a most extraordinary suggestion. The committee established to promote International Youth Year approached me with two requests. One was that they should get an extra £100,000 for their activities. The second was that this year the Government should establish the President's award scheme. The establishment of such a scheme has been the policy objective of successive administrations for many years. Successive administrations have been anxious that we should join with some 30 or 40 other countries throughout the world in having such a scheme. One of the reasons why we regard it as a priority is that the experience elsewhere has been that such a scheme recognising and challenging young people as individuals reaches out to those who do not at the moment join the established youth organisations. We see it as a very valuable way of reaching out to young people who at the moment are not involved in any of the structured organisations.

The question of inviting young people to participate in various State boards and Government committees was raised by umpteen people. It is happening all over the place. This Government have appointed young people to NESC, last week to the local radio board, to the Youth Employment Agency, to the Prison Visiting Committees, to the curriculum examination board and a number of others. I welcome the fact that there is a consensus in the House. I thank Deputies on all sides for the welcome they have given this report. I assure them that it will not find a place on any shelf.

Question put and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 3 May 1985.