asked the Minister for Justice the plans he has to improve Garda efficiency and effectiveness.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Síochána.
30.
(Limerick East): In consultation with the Garda authorities and with their full co-operation I am promoting policies and actions which affect a wide range of Garda areas and which are designed to improve Garda efficiency and effectiveness.
It would not be practicable to restate these policies and the action taken or planned on foot of them in a reply to a parliamentary question. They have been referred to in various statements that I have made in the House in debate and in specific points in reply to parliamentary questions, and it is my intention to announce details of particular policies and plans as appropriate occasions arise in the future.
(Dublin North-West): Is the Minister satisfied that the Garda are adequately equipped to deal with the car stealers and joyriders? I have been informed that a recommendation has been made by the Garda authorities to the Minister and to the Department to have more effective motor cars and motorcycles. Has the Minister given any consideration to improving the power of the cars and to have more effective cars so that the Garda will be safer in these types of cars when they try to apprehend car thieves?
(Limerick East): I consider the Garda are properly equipped. It is really a matter for the Garda authorities if they want to change the type of car or the power of the car involved. As the Deputy is aware in the Garda Vote there is a block grant for Garda transport. It is at the discretion of the Garda authorities what type of cars they buy, the range of cars and the power of cars they buy. If they want to get more powerful cars that is a matter for the Garda authorities. The money is in the Vote.
(Dublin North-West): Have recommendations been made to the Minister by the Garda authorities to improve the type of cars used?
(Limerick East): It is not a matter for me at all. The money is supplied and it is a matter for the Garda authorities to buy whatever cars they think are necessary.
Will the Minister agree that one of the major problems for Garda efficiency and effectiveness as well as for Garda morale is when they actually succeed in apprehending offenders and they go through the court process and are duly dealt with in court, but because of lack of adequate prison accommodation the people the Garda have spent so much time apprehending are out on the streets again?
That is another matter. It is certainly another question.
It is not.
The Deputy is seeking to graft it into this question but it is definitely another question.
Would the Minister agree that part of the overall programme for control of crime is the courts, prison officers and prison accommodation?
(Limerick East): That is obvious. The Deputy need not rush into the House to say the Garda are——
Is the Minister telling us he did not cancel a prison accommodation plan sanctioned two years ago?
That is another matter. I am ruling it out of order. If Deputy O'Kennedy could put down another question on that he could receive an answer.
Is the Minister saying that prison accommodation has nothing to do with Garda morale?
(Limerick East): If the Deputy's Administration had put money into prisons instead of——
I am going on to the next question.
(Interruptions.)
Will the Minister agree that money was provided for prison accommodation two years ago?
If the Deputy wants to ask a question about prison accommodation he should put down a question about it. Question No. 31.
(Interruptions.)
Order. The position is that Question No. 30 asked the Minister for Justice the plans he has to improve Garda efficiency and effectiveness and the Minister said he was not prepared to discuss the general policies and actions of the Garda at Question Time. I will not allow this question to be used to open up a wide discussion which is entirely inappropriate for Question Time.
On a point of order, in relation to Garda efficiency and effectiveness — their role is to guard the peace — when they have dealt with people there is not accommodation for them and surely that undermines efficiency and effectiveness? It is clearly a matter of efficiency and effectiveness if, when they have dealt with people, apprehended them and put them through the courts, there is no place to accommodate them.
(Limerick East): Thanks to the Deputy and his colleagues.
The Minister is the man who has responsibility. The programme was planned and provided for, but the Minister cancelled it when he came into office in 1982.
(Limerick East): There are 123 extra people in the prison service in the last three years.
I ask the Members to listen to this. If I am to make any effort to get Question Time under control — God knows there is enough criticism of it — I ask Deputies to listen to this:
Supplementary Questions may be put only for the further elucidation of the information requested, and shall be subject to the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle, both as to relevance and as to number.
I have an absolute discretion in this and I intend to do my best to exercise it. There is no use in some people availing of one aspect of a topic to come in and raise a whole wide question that is not relevant. I will not allow it and I will not have an argument on it either.
May I address you in relation to your absolute discretion, which is what you referred to? I ask that in exercising that absolute discretion the Chair will not close his mind to the fact that the Garda do not operate in isolation and that if they find that the people they apprehend are back on the streets for want of prison accommodation——
I will not be lectured to as to——
I have to accept that you are exercising your absolute discretion but I have to say that I do not think it is a fair exercise of your discretion.
I am ruling reasonably that if Deputy O'Kennedy wants to raise the question of prison accommodation he should put down a question.
With regard to the efficiency and effectiveness of the operation of the Garda Síochána I would like to ask the Minister a few brief questions. Has he any plans to extend the training period for Garda recruits in the training centre at Templemore? Will he increase the level of in force training for existing gardaí, because I believe it is vitally important that the level of training and expertise be reviewed on an ongoing basis within the force? Has the Minister any plans to remove from the duty roster of gardaí irrelevant duties like collecting dog licences, collecting statistics and other duties which are not at all relevant to the operation of the Garda so that gardaí may be released for the more important task of policing? I consider these questions to be relevant in terms of the question tabled.
Perhaps I should have ruled the question out of order at the beginning. The Deputy must realise that this question is very wide and one on which many aspects of policing and security could be raised and that if I did not intervene we could be here until 10.30 this evening without having exhausted all the issues that could be raised. Therefore, it is not a suitable matter for dealing with at Question Time.
How, then, are we to elicit the information?
An Estimate debate is the only forum I can think of at present.
The Chair must be aware that not one but at least four independent inquiries in relation to Garda efficiency and effectiveness have been undertaken.
We could continue in this vein for 100 days without exploring all these various aspects.
I wish to focus particularly on the question raised by Deputy Hyland.
(Limerick East): The Deputy is making points but I will not be allowed reply.
Deputy O'Kennedy has come in towards the end of Question Time and is disrupting the proceedings. He is not in order.
Am I not entitled to ask a supplementary?
Only if the supplementary is relevant, but the Deputy is not entitled to make speeches. I do not wish to have any unpleasantness but if I did not raise my voice I would simply be walked over.
I speak in a low tone also and I am only addressing you in relation to your response to Deputy Hyland. In view of the fact that almost every inquiry into Garda effectiveness and efficiency has been addressed specifically to Garda training, should you not allow Deputy Hyland's question, which, I submit, is entirely relevant?
I wish Deputy O'Kennedy would leave this to me. I intervened on Deputy Hyland's three questions to point out the unsuitability of Question Time for dealing with such a very broad subject. I am not prepared to spend all evening on this question.
(Limerick East): As Deputy Hyland is aware, the Commissioner, with my approval, has set up an expert committee of educationalists and personnel people to advise him on Garda training. It is my intention that a new Garda recruitment campaign will begin some time in the autumn and the new training scheme will apply to those recruited at that time.
Regarding the duration of the training period, I am informed that the committee are dealing with the question of what the appropriate training requirements of the Garda would be and that when they have established the range of skills considered appropriate they will incorporate that into the appropriate module of time. Obviously, an extension of time will be involved, but until such time as I receive the committee's report I cannot say what extra time will be involved. I agree that there should be an increase in the level of service training. That is another aspect the committee are considering. The matter is ongoing and Deputies should not be under the impression that there is not a large amount of in-service training. Only two weeks ago I presented certificates to 30 members of the Garda, the Army and the Revenue staff who had completed a course set up by the US agency who are responsible for drug regulations enforcement. The course, which was of a number of weeks' duration, was provided by the American Government in their international campaign in the fight against drug abuse. A whole range of in-service courses are in progress all the time at Templemore, but that is another matter being examined by the committee.
Regarding the third question, sometimes there is an argument about what irrelevant duties are in the context of the Garda. I agree with the general thrust of the question and I should be happier if some of the duties undertaken by the Garda could be passed on to someone else; but in the absence of that someone else to undertake these duties, they will remain the responsibility of the Garda. So far as dog licences, for instances, are concerned, I suspect that only a small proportion of the dog population is licensed, so the Garda are not involved very much in collecting the fees. However if, say, a child is attacked by a dog, the matter becomes very much the responsibility of the Garda. The focus of attention changes. It has been said that the Garda should be involved more in the fight against crime and involved less in traffic related duties. Last year about 27 murders were committed in the country while almost 500 people were killed on the roads. Very often the question is one of where the public focus is at any time but I agree with the spirit of the suggestion.
While appreciating that the area is very broad and obviously not one that could be dealt with satisfactorily at Question Time, I will concentrate on one aspect. Would the Minister not agree that there is a great need to improve that element of Garda training that relates to rules of evidence and to court procedures? This is a view held widely even among the training staff at Templemore. By bringing about an improvement in this area we would be ensuring that gardaí are not at a disadvantage when faced with professionally qualified people. In view of that and of many examples also, would the Minister not agree that, pending the completion of the present investigation, there are many such improvements that could be implemented as a matter of urgency?
(Limerick East): Yes. There is no inhibition on the Garda in that respect, either in their preliminary recruit training or during the two year probation period when in-service training is provided or subsequently by way of a series of seminars. The Garda have discretion in such matters. I do not think we will ever have a situation where the recruit garda will be on an equal footing with the barrister who has spent several years studying law and who has years of experience. Neither would that be necessary. But gardaí can become competent in the rules of evidence so that cases do not fall for reasons of technicalities. I expect that is what the Deputy has in mind.
I was not talking about technicalities or about gardaí reaching the same level of competence as people who have had four years exclusive legal training. The Minister could confirm from inquiries to the Garda training centre that the present level of instruction in court procedure and rules of evidence is inadequate and that the young men leaving training do not have the capacity or the confidence to discharge their job.
(Limerick East): That would be a surprising comment from the people at Templemore because if they are unhappy in this regard it is within their competence to change the system.
How can they change it? They cannot extend the course by a month.
(Limerick East): They can bring gardaí back for in-service training.
That is a trite reply.
Would the Minister consider that there would be any merit in setting up a cadet training scheme for officer grades in the Garda?
(Limerick East): That question will be examined when the new recruitment campaign is being implemented and when the initial report from the training committee is presented.
I wish to ask one more question.
I must move on to the next question. I have been very reasonable.
Has the Minister any plan for changing the system and the pattern of policing? For instance, is there any plan for a return to the beat for gardaí in local communities as distinct from patrol cars driving through the various areas? Many people believe that the old community pattern of policing was very effective.
The Deputy is making a case and that is not in order.
The Minister might like to respond.
(Limerick East): Operational matters are issues for the Garda Commissioner and for Garda management. I am aware that the Commissioner approves of close relationship between the Garda and the public and that he favours the system of gardaí on the beat. That has been his policy since he has been appointed by the Government and it is a policy I approve of.
He would need more gardaí before he could implement that policy.
(Limerick East): The great local government reformer from the west has arrived.
I am glad the Minister is taking note.
He is taking a lot more note than the Deputy ever took.
(Limerick East): Everything is fine until the bills come in.
We did not promise £60 million for a tunnel under the Lee.
Does the Deputy not approve? Now we know what the Fianna Fáil policy is in that regard.
All in the interest of a few votes.
Deputy Molloy has come in belatedly and is disrupting Question Time.
(Limerick East): There are rowdy Deputies on the other side.