asked the Minister for Education if she is aware that many schools are pressuring parents into making financial contributions for the general running of the school or for specific activities undertaken within school hours; if she approves of requests for such contributions; if she will request schools to desist from making such requests; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Parents' School Contributions.
10.
The running costs of national schools are assisted by my Department by means of a system of capitation grants, that is a grant per pupil enrolled on 30 September of the school year in question. The capitation grant assistance is payable on the condition that a local contribution equivalent to at least 25 per cent of the State capitation grant, must be lodged each year in a bank account in the name of the school. As is laid down in the constitution of boards and rules of procedure "the sum required to meet the local contribution shall be provided by the parish community or other appropriate analogous community or body from general funds at the disposal of such community or body and there shall be no levy on the parents of children attending the school". In addition, the rules for national schools preclude the collection of fees from parents in respect of any activities undertaken by pupils during school hours.
I am satisfied that boards of management, in general, are familiar with the above rules and bring no undue pressure to bear on individual parents with regard to the making of financial contributions.
With regard to secondary schools within the free education scheme I would like to state that it is a fundamental principle of the free education scheme that no charge be made in respect of: (1) instruction in any subject listed in the general school programme; (2) recreational or study facilities of which all the pupils are expected to avail themselves as part of the school programme and (3) any other activity in which all pupils are required to take part.
Voluntary contributions by parents towards the elimination of old building debts, or charges for optional extras over and above those provided in the general school programme would be permissible under the free education scheme provided it were made absolutely clear to parents that there was no question of its being compulsory, and that in making a contribution they would be so doing of their own volition. A small number of complaints received from time to time concerning the levying of charges on parents have been investigated by my Department.
I am not aware of any dissatisfaction in this connection in respect of pupils attending vocational, community and comprehensive schools.
The Minister must be aware that the capitation grant, even with the addition of the local contribution, is still inadequate to cover the cost of heating and running the schools. Would she not agree that it is widespread practice for schools to send notes to parents requesting £1 or £2 per month to be paid to heat the schools? Would she not agree that that practice is being forced on schools because of the inadequacy of the capitation grant and that it is a breach of the constitutional right to free primary education?
I do not agree with the Deputy's statement that schools are forced into this position. I gave a fairly long and clear answer about the rules which apply to voluntary contributions to schools.
Is the Minister aware that there are some VEC schools which are requesting £2 fees with applications for first year students, that some schools are requesting fees for elocution classes, physical education classes, that some schools are requesting £10 for materials and that some are asking for £10, £15 or £20 fees for art and computer classes? This is a widespread practice being forced on schools because of the inadequate capitation grant which is less than half the cost of maintaining the pupil at school.
This is developing into a speech and I cannot allow it.
We have had a very small number of complaints. If the cases referred to by the Deputy are outside the rules which apply in my Department, I would be glad to have those complaints made to the Department.
Will the Minister accept that she is stonewalling and that throughout the country at national school level and in a great many sectors at second school level the funding available to the management of schools to carry out their normal activities is inadequate and that they are forced to call upon parents of the children attending the schools for finance? The Minister is also aware that this is greatly to the detriment of pupils in disadvantaged areas whose parents cannot afford the finance. The Minister is just dodging the issue.
Deputy O'Rourke——
This is a very serious matter. People cannot afford to comply with the wishes expressed in these letters. I know of families whose children are afraid to go back to school because they have not got the funding requested.
I am relying on Standing Order No. 37 and I expect that I should be obeyed.
On a point of order, why is the Minister allowed to give an answer which has no meaning?
I have no control over how questions are answered and the Deputy knows that.
The Minister is repeating platitudes which have no meaning.
I will allow a final supplementary.
There are three questions which the Minister has not answered.
(Interruptions.)
Earlier on I was accused of introducing a note of contention into these questions. I am now being asked to agree that I am selling something ——
That is argument.
The whole thing arose because the Minister is not answering the questions.
(Interruptions.)
The longer I am here the more I am convinced that people have not read Standing Orders, and worse, do not intend to read them.
Will the Minister——
Just a moment. We will spend a moment or two on this. Standing Orders are as follows:
31. Questions to a member of the Government must be in writing, and must reach the Clerk not later than 11 o'clock a.m. on the third day preceding that on which they are to be asked, not reckoning a Saturday, Sunday or public holiday: Provided that Questions relating to matters of urgent public importance may, by permission of the Ceann Comhairle, be asked on private notice.
32. Questions addressed to a member of the Government must relate to public affairs connected with his Department, or to matters of administration for which he is officially responsible.
37. Supplementary Questions may be put only for the further elucidation of the information requested, and shall be subject to the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle, both as to relevance and as to number.
If the Deputies wish me to read out what the Leader of Fianna Fáil said on the day when I was elected Ceann Comhairle, I will do that as well.
The Chair is a reasonable man——
What the Chair has just read out is sexist.
Deputy Andrews is out of order.
I just wanted to point out that the Chair is out of order.
(Interruptions.)
I am just making the point——
Not alone is the Deputy out of order but he is a little bit foolish.
(Interruptions.)
I cannot ask the Chair to withdraw that.
(Interruptions.)
That is making a judgment and it is outside the parameters of Standing Orders.
The Deputy must well know that even as far as the Interpretation Act of 1937 is concerned, when "he" is used, in legal terminology it included "she".
I am used to being described as "he".
(Interruptions.)
This has gone far enough. Deputy Haughey speaking on 14 December 1982 on my election——
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Haughey said:
I congratulate you, Deputy Fitzpatrick, on your election as our Ceann Comhairle — and I use the words "our Ceann Comhairle" advisedly — and welcome you to the Chair. The effectiveness of this Dáil and the efficiency with which we can conduct our affairs rest in very large measure in your hands and on your shoulders. I want to assure you, Sir, of our full co-operation in your difficult task.
We hear much these days about Dáil reform. I would like to suggest to the House and to you, Sir, that the greatest reform we could bring about would be the restoration of good order in this House, and also full restoration of your authority in the Chair. Over a period of years, unfortunately, the situation in this regard has steadily deteriorated. We have had increasing disorder, procedural wrangling, arguing with the Chair, and, in many cases, an abuse of the point of order mechanism. I believe we should decide now to make a major effort at the start of this Dáil to reassert the authority of the Chair and the orderly conduct of our business. We will co-operate fully with you in such an effort and I hope you will decide to undertake it.
In particular I hope, with the agreement of all Deputies, you will insist that the Chair's word will be final and that arguments with the Chair, wrangling or challenging your authority will not be tolerated.
I appeal for respect for the Chair. I appeal to the House to co-operate with the Chair in enforcing Standing Orders. If the House comes to the conclusion at any time that I have grievously disregarded Standing Orders or abused them, there is a well known procedure to deal with me and I would have no objection to it.
Did the Chair say he was elected in 1942?
(Interruptions.)
I have just one question arising out of what the Chair said.
Will the Chair please re-read the Standing Order which referred to supplementaries being for the elucidation of information.
(Interruptions.)
Standing Order No. 37 reads:
Supplementary Questions may be put only for the further elucidation of the information requested, and shall be subject to the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle, both as to relevance and as to number.
Now I am calling the next question.
It is unfair that wrangling between the Chair and a number of other Deputies should prevent me from pursuing this question.
Deputy De Rossa put the question down, so I will give him the last question but I would ask him to make it short.
Does the Minister regard the capitation grant as adequate given that it is £22 per pupil when the average cost of running a 600 pupil school is £45 per pupil? What does the Minister propose to do to fill the gap?
I do not consider it inadequate. We increased the capitation grant at primary level by the biggest amount ever. In 1983-84 it was increased to £21 per pupil from £17 per pupil. Last year a further increase of 5 per cent was given on that——
One pound.
At second level, in 1983-84 we increased the capitalisation grant to £100, an 8.7 per cent increase. Last year it was increased to £105, a further 5 per cent increase. The Deputy will be aware that for the very first time this Government have instituted a fund to help schools in disadvantaged areas. This fund reached £0.5 million in two years. A great amount of that fund——
It was a fraud.
——was used to give extra assistance to primary schools in disadvantaged areas. I have in the Department letters from the patrons of the schools in those disadvantaged areas thanking us and saying how very useful this disadvantaged fund was to them, as it was the first time it was ever received.
That is not true. When Deputy Wilson was Minister for Education he introduced disadvantaged funds.