Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Jan 1986

Vol. 363 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Imprisonment of Deputy.

I should like to thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity to raise this matter on the Adjournment. It was not considered urgent enough to raise it today on the Order of Business.

Deputy Gregory was fined £150 and, by order of the District Court, was bound over to keep the peace for six months. It is important to note that Deputy Gregory went to prison on a point of principle, namely, the right to protest peacefully alongside and on behalf of his constituents. He does not think he should have been bound over because it prevents him from doing something which he considers in conscience he must do.

In his own statement Deputy Gregory said he represented some of the poorest people who had no option but to protest to achieve their civil rights. One can contrast this with the power, money and influence of the City Centre Traders' Association and Irish Life in whose name a case has been taken to prevent traditional street traders taking up an option that was already granted by the city to trade in the cul-de-sac leading to the centre, and one could be forgiven for concluding that an injustice is taking place or that at least a call for protest and support on behalf of the people concerned is necessary.

This case began in the Circuit Court. It went to the Supreme Court by way of case stated. Because the Circuit Court judge in question retired and Irish Life deliberately delayed the action by not putting it to the Supreme Court in time, the case has now to return to the Circuit Court. That process has been going on for two years.

I believe that it is sometimes necessary to accept even prison rather than to compromise one's principles although I should imagine that in this most conservative of Houses that would be frowned upon in the extreme. In my experience this Chamber is comprised of some of the most cowardly people when it comes to matters of principle or justice. Although they seem to think they are very humane, caring and just, I have found that not to be true. The opposite is the case.

Deputy Gregory's constituents who depend on him to a great extent and some of my own constituents are unfairly disadvantaged. They live in areas where as few as 1 per cent of the population receive any kind of third level education and they make up about 25 per cent of the population of St. Patrick's Institution and Mountjoy Prison. In advantaged areas the percentage receiving third level education is 30 per cent to 40 per cent. People in such areas know how to take advantage of the system and to come out on top.

In a dissertation on civil disobedience Thoreau said, "The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right. To be right is more honourable than law abiding." I find it regrettable to have to call on the Minister to release an honourable and responsible Member of this House. The Minister should have done this without persuasion as he is empowered to do under section 23 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1951. It was once considered by two former Taoisigh that Deputy Gregory was important enough to be courted for his support. I ask the question if he would be left incarcerated if that occasion were to arise now.

Deputy Gregory is not a common criminal, neither is he a wild nor dangerous person. His constituents are calling for his release because they want him among them. As the Minister is well aware, people involved in more serious cases have been released. What is involved is a principle I stand over. Gandhi said that if you have an idea or a principle, not to practise it is dishonest. He asked how can one believe in a moral or religious precept and not live it. He also said that the only protection the underprivileged have are the morals of those who are privileged. Therefore, I call on the Minister to release Deputy Gregory.

I thank Deputy Skelly for giving me some of his time to debate the matter that we unsuccessfully raised today. I also thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this important matter to be discussed. It appears once again that our Standing Orders are outdated. This important matter has received considerable attention. The fact that somebody — in this case a Member of this House — is behind the bars of a jail has been ruled out because it is said there is no degree of urgency even though tomorrow is one of the key days in the parliamentary calendar. Today I asked that Deputy Gregory be allowed to attend here in the national Parliament. The Deputy concerned made the same call and said he would return to jail. This happens in the case of many prisoners. In the area that Deputy Gregory and I represent many people have been charged and sentenced but they have never spent a night in Mountjoy Prison. The Minister and his officials are aware of that. In many cases Deputy Gregory has made representations on behalf of his constituents and they have been released. On this occasion neither he nor his colleagues can do this. Last night at a meeting of the premier local authority in the country, Dublin City Council, speakers on all sides — Deputy Doyle, the leader of the Fine Gael group, I as the leader of the Fianna Fáil group and Independent members — all called for the release of Deputy Gregory to allow him to continue with his duties.

I accept that people cannot be allowed to break the law and that they will have to pay fines but what happened in this case was unreasonable. Although this matter has received much publicity, the point has been missed, namely, why Deputy Gregory decided to go to jail. The question of illegal trading, legal traders and those who operate in shanty huts in the city centre has been ongoing for 30 years but the legality or otherwise of the traders has never been clarified in law by the city council. Because of developments such as that carried out by Irish Life these people have been removed from sites where their families have traded for generations. There may have been agreements in law but the people concerned did not understand them. They have sold shoes and other items for generations. People who know the area of Moore Street and Henry Street know about this. Some of the traders are legal, others are illegal and more operate from shanty huts where it is questionable whether they are illegal or legal. In the past nine months a final decision has been reached about who can remain and at what location. Families who have been traditional traders have pressed very strongly to be included in what is classified as legal traders.

I do not agree with all of Deputy Gregory's view on this matter. I believe that the traditional illegal traders have some rights but people who have come on the scene in the past few years have not got those rights. Deputy Gregory refused to sign a bond that he would not protest for the next six months. This matter that has been debated for the last 30 years will be solved in the next two months and thus Deputy Gregory would not have been able to speak on a matter about which he has lobbied for many years, long before he has elected to Dublin Corporation in 1979 or to this House in 1982. That is why he did not sign the bond.

The final report of the management of Dublin Corporation is to be before the city council in a matter of days. That was decided last week when the Deputy set out his position. He is anxious to be in a position to protest and to fight legitimately for the right at issue, and that is a very complicated issue. There are differences about the legalities involved but it is because the matter is so complicated that it has been an issue for 35 years. It has been through the courts and has cost Irish Life, who are a very rich State agency, a bomb in trying to beat some of the people concerned. Irish Life would have had the best possible legal advice available to them, so we are not talking about a simple issue or merely about people sitting on the streets. I would not be protesting on behalf of Deputy Gregory if he had not assured me that the allegation that he had kicked a policeman is totally unfounded. I must accept his word on that so I willingly accept that assurance.

The position is that a Deputy who protested on an issue about which he has very strong views and which was part of his platform in being elected to this House is being asked to sign a bond to the effect that he will not again become involved in that protest. I do not believe anyone in this House should be asked to sign such a bond. I do not understand the legal implications but I understand why Deputy Gregory would not sign such a bond. I believe he is right in what he is doing.

On numbers of occasions people who have been serving time in prison for fairly serious crimes have been paroled or released early for various reasons. Surely the law has made the point in this instance that a Deputy can be put behind bars and that consequently the Deputy concerned can be released to enable him to be here tomorrow to play his part on what is one of the most important days in the parliamentary calendar year. Therefore, I urge the Minister to release Deputy Gregory this evening and not to continue this matter further.

Limerick East): I have received a number of requests for either temporary or full release for Deputy Tony Gregory.

The facts of this case are very simple. Deputy Gregory is in prison because of his refusal to pay a fine of £150 imposed on him by the District Court and to sign a bond to be of good behaviour and keep the peace for a period of six months. The Deputy did not choose to appeal against the decision of the District Court and he has indicated that he has deliberately decided not to comply with the order of the District Court in his case. His imprisonment is an inevitable consequence of those decisions by him.

The Deputy was, of course, quite entitled to make those decisions; but I cannot see, in those circumstances, why I should be called on to alleviate consequences which must have been quite clear to the Deputy when he took those decisions.

In particular, no grounds have been put forward which would justify my interfering in any way with the decision of the District Court and, accordingly, there can be no question of any form of early release for the Deputy.

It is a matter of regret that the Deputy is not free to attend the Dáil but that situation has been brought about entirely by his own actions. More importantly, it is entirely within his own power to end that situation by complying, even at this late stage, with the order of the District Court.

On a general point I think the House will accept that it is difficult to expect members of the public to obey and respect the law and the courts if Members of this House do not do so.

On the point of principle raised by Deputy Skelly, that is, the right to protest, I would have thought that Deputy Gregory or any other Deputy has a unique forum at his disposal to register his protest, namely, this House. This would be the proper and democratic way of dealing with his problem.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.45 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 January 1986.

Top
Share