Deputy P. Gallagher has been given permission to raise on the Adjournment "the alarming details in a recent publication concerning disbursement by Roinn na Gaeltachta for the repair of roads."
Díospóireacht ar an Athló. - Deisiú Bóithre i nDún na nGall.
Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leatsa as ucht an t-am seo a thabhairt dom an cheist thábhachtach seo a phlé. Gabhaim mo leithscéal leatsa agus leis an Aire faoin uair mall, ach ceapaim go bhfuil an cheist chomh tábhachtach agus chomh práinneach go raibh orm é a thabhairt go dtí an Athló. Beidh mé ag tabhairt cúpla nóiméad de mo chuid ama do urlabhraí Fhianna Fáil i gcúrsaí Gaeltachta, Deputy Denis Gallagher.
I lár Mí na Samhna anuraidh chuir Roinn na Gaeltachta airgead ar fáil do Ghaeltacht Thír Chonaill chun deisú a dhéanamh ar bhóithre ansin. Shíl mise ag an am go mbeadh an t-airgead caite ar bhóithre ina raibh níos mós ná teach amháin suite. Ina dhiaidh sin, rinne mé fiosrúcháin agus chuir mé ceist ar an Aire ar an 17 Nollaig — dúirt tusa go raibh argóint ag baint leis. D'fhiafraigh mé de Aire na Gaeltachta an raibh sé cinnte gur caitheadh an t-airgead i gcómhair na ndeontas i nDeireadh Fomhair agus Samhain 1985 go cothrom. Ghlac tusa, a Cheann Comhairle, leis sin, ach cúpla lá ina dhiaidh sin phléigh mé an cheist go ginearálta agus is é an tAire Airgeadais a bhí sa Teach an lá sin toisc go raibh Aire na Gaeltachta sa Mhór Roinn ag plé cúrsaí iascaigh agus foraoiseachta. Dúirt an tAire Airgeadais, nuair a dúirt mé nach raibh mé sásta leis an chaoi a tugadh an t-airgead amach nach raibh cead agam bheith ag tabhairt ceiste mar seo ós cómhair na Dála, gur roinneadh an t-airgead ar an tslí ceart. I want to refer to the alarming details.
Níos mó Gaeilge.
I suppose the facts are more bitter in English than they are in Irish.
Mo náire, a leithéid de rud a rá.
Would Deputy McGinley listen, because it will be severe? I want to raise the matter of these alarming details in company with my colleagues from Donegal County Council in relation to the selection of roads in the Donegal Gaeltacht in November 1985. At that time I was not aware that these roads lead to people's houses. It is not necessary for me to indicate the type of roads they were. On 17 December I questioned this in the Dáil. When I had raised the matter earlier, dúirt tusa go raibh eargóint ag baint leis. I asked if you felt or if the Minister felt that the roads were selected in a fair and impartial manner.
I contend they were not selected in a fair and impartial manner and that there are no precedents under any Government, whether Fianna Fáil or Coalition, back to 1977, for this type of selection. I believe that Roinn na Gaeltachta funds were disbursed to the advantage of people who would not qualify for the ordinary traditional local improvement schemes. The criteria is a road that must be of benefit to agricultural production, and benefit two or more parcels of land owned by or occupied by different persons who serve the public.
I ask the Minister what comparison there is between the criterion used to repair these roads and the traditional criterion for LIS roads. It is generally known that the criterion used for Gaeltachta grants is that they should comply with LIS conditions, that the grants should be used to repair roads to two or more houses servicing two or more families, with an agricultural input. More important, these grants were to help to repair roads which could not be repaired out of county council funds, non-county roads, amenity roads, roads to beaches, bog roads to turbary plots. At the moment people in Donegal cannot get into their bogs, yet here we find money being provided to repair roads to individual houses.
I do not entirely blame the Minister, though the buck must stop with him because it is his responsibility. However, in fairness to him he was advised, and I believe heads should roll as far as officials and public representatives are concerned. I believe they deceived the Minister when they advised him to carry out repairs to these roads.
Jealousy.
We should look back on the history of these roads. I want to point out the facts. When Fianna Fáil were in office, roads were repaired which served 20 families who needed proper entry to their bogs. There is such a road in Fanad serving two families; roads in Sruthán and Machaire Cloghar serving four families; there were roads in The Rosses, Gweedore, Cloughaneely, in Donegal Gaeltacht Láir, in Glencolmcille. All of these roads serve more than one family.
In this instance the money was not spent equitably. I hate to have to come to Dublin to point out that the money was spent within a five mile radius of Deputy McGinley's home. Down through the years the money was spent in a much fairer and impartial manner. Was the Minister aware, when he accepted the selection of roads, that the system was being abused? I believe he was not. His officials should have visited these roads and considered the estimate made by Donegal County Council. Such an estimate was not obtained. Somebody in the Department or a public representative locally must have decided, because there was no communication with Donegal County Council——
It is not usual or in order to attack public officials who are not here and cannot come here to defend themselves.
The Minister can defend them if there is any defence to be made. I will withdraw any remark which would reflect on them. In 1984 there was an allocation of £5,000 to Donegal County Council in respect of Arranmore Island when roads could not be repaired by the county council and £6,000 for Gaeltacht roads. That money was carried over until the following year. The normal practice is that the officials of Roinn na Gaeltachta examine the roads, look for estimates from Donegal County Council, come back to the Department and the Minister selects the roads concerned. I accuse Roinn na Gaeltachta of not requesting an estimate from Donegal County Council and I accuse public representatives who went to the executive engineer's office in Dungloe, by-passing the county council offices in Lifford, obtained estimates, took them back to Dublin and selected them in Dublin, ignoring Donegal County Council. I asked at the time how these roads were selected, by whom they were selected, whether estimates were obtained from the county council and whether officials viewed these roads and at any time obtained the necessary estimates. The Minister must answer these questions if not tonight then at the first available opportunity.
It is not necessary to state in this House the condition of the roads in general in County Donegal. I believe we have the worst roads in Europe. The roads in the Sahara are better than the county roads in Donegal. It is extremely difficult to explain to the public in the Gaeltacht regions how a Government Department could provide funds for these roads when that money could have been spent maybe not on county roads but it could have been spent on Arranmore Island, on Tory Island where they provided money in the past. It could have been spent to repair a bridge which was the subject of a TV news item some time ago, a bridge that collapsed, and the Minister told us at the time that he regretted he was unable to assist because it did not have a high enough priority. The same goes for Arranmore Island, for the road to a pier at Kincasslagh. On 11 February 1985 I asked the Minister by way of letter if he would make available funds to repair this road. The Minister told me in February:
Ní raibh airgead ar fáil ag mo Roinnse anuraidh chun freastal ar na bóithre agus is oth liom nach raibh tosaíocht sách ard ag na bóithre sin——
(Interruptions.)
The Minister told me that the road to Kincasslagh pier, where there were landings of fish providing productive jobs, did not have a high enough priority. The same applied to the bog at Moyra, Falcarragh.
(Interruptions.)
The bridge which was the subject of a TV news item was not of high enough priority.
Send the money down to Kerry.
Deputy Begley should stop interrupting.
They should send the money to Kerry.
I have to refer to a letter which I wrote to the Minister on 5 December 1985 with reference to roads. I said I noted that grants had been available to repair accommodation roads to individual houses which would not even qualify for a local improvement scheme. The Minister has been made fully aware of the situation at all times.
This is a serious abuse of public funds. There is political patronage. The money was not spent in an equitable fashion. It is most unfortunate that these individuals whose roads were repaired were drawn into the public arena.
(Interruptions.)
A Cheann Comhairle, if you do not want to keep order I will just keep shouting.
It is a limited debate and the Deputy is entitled to make his speech.
Surely we should have some order in the House.
There are a number of people who have had their roads repaired who did not even apply, someone applied on their behalf. It is quite possible that that can be done. These people have been drawn into this embarrassing——
(Interruptions.)
If Deputy Begley cannot restrain himself he should leave the House.
A Cheann Comhairle, if it were on this side of the House you would insist on the Deputy leaving the House.
The Deputy should withdraw that remark. There have been intermittent interruptions since the debate began.
I would like if at some stage the letters of application by these people could be produced. It is no reflection on any of these individuals. Let nobody suggest that I have drawn them into it. I have drawn to the attention of the House what Deputy Begley tried to do on numerous occasions to ensure that money was spent properly in this country.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Begley will leave the House and leave the House now.
Deputy Begley withdrew from the Chamber.
I would ask the Minister for a departmental inquiry at the highest possible level to ascertain the facts and see if it can be proved that public finance was used to repair roads to individual houses while there was no money for roads which are used for the common good. There is a charge to be answered and I believe it is necessary to do this. The air should be cleared. It is a question of public morality.
Ba mhaith liomsa mar fhocal scoir a iarraidh ar an Aire — agus mar a dúirt mé ní dóigh liomsa gur ceart an milleán a chur ar Aire na Gaeltachta é féin ach ar na daoine sin a chuir in iúl nach raibh na bóithre seo sách ard san priority list — fiosruchán a chur ar aghaidh taobh istigh den Roinn agus ina dhiaidh sin muna bhfuil an ceart agamsa beidh mise mór go leor le teacht isteach anseo agus a rá nach raibh an ceart agam.
Is é an trua go gcaithfimid teacht isteach anseo ag an am seo d'oíche faoi muintir na Gaeltachta a bheith ag ithe a chéile faoi chúrsaí atá. i mo thuairimse, mí-cheart, faoi chúrsaí nach raibh bonn ceart leo, agus a chuireann míshástacht ar chuile dhuine a raibh eolas acu faoin scéim seo, scéim na mbóithre áise sna Gaeltachtaí. Bhí buntáiste mór ag baint leis an scéim seo. Chuir sí bóithre maithe ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta, chuir sé bóithre portaigh ar fáil dóibh agus tugadh chuid maith airgid le saol muintir na Gaeltachta a fheabhsú agus le bóithre ceart a thabhairt dóibh le dul go dtí a gcuid tithe agus le freastal orthu ar gach bealach.
De réir mar a thuigimse an scéim, is é an nós a bhí ann go n-ainmneofaí bóithre i nGaeltachtaí agus go ndéanfadh oifigeach de Roinn na Gaeltachta ar an chomhairle chontae meastachán a chur isteach ag an Roinn faoin chaiteachas ar na bóithre sin agus go ndéanfadh an Roinn ansin cinneadh ar cén chaoi a gcaithfí an t-airgead. Má shíl an Roinn go raibh an caitheachas ro-ard i gcás bóithre ar bith, bhuel níor chaith siad an t-airgead ar na bóithre sin, ach, de ghnáth, is é an rud a bhí i gceist gur caitheadh an t-airgead i gcaoi go raibh freastal á dhéanamh ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta i gcoitinne. De réir an eolais atá faighte agus ar tugadh cuid mhaith poiblíochta dó níor chaith Roinn na Gaeltachta leis an scéim sin mar a caitheadh leis san am atá thart. Tá daoine a fuair bóithrín go dtí a gcuid tithe, daoine a raibh postanna maithe acu, daoine a raibh tithe breátha acu agus ní shílimse má tá an phoiblíocht a cuireadh ar fáil ceart ní shílim go dtiocfadh leis an Aire nó an Roinn a bheith sásta faoin gcaoi in ar caitheadh an t-airgead seo agus sílim go raibh sé de cheart ag an Teachta Gallagher teacht isteach anseo agus an rud seo a chur os comhair na Dála agus an mhí-shástacht atáorainne maidir leis an gcaoi in ar caitheadh an t-airgead seo a phlé anseo.
Beimid ag súil anseo anocht go mbeidh an tAire in ann miniú sásúil a thabhairt dúinn ar an scéal. Tarlaíonn rudaí nach mbíonn a fhios ag Airí chuile shórt futhu. Is iad oifigigh na Roinne atá freagrach as an gcaoi in a gcaitear an t-airgead. Ní ceart go dtarlódh sé ach is dócha go dtig leis tarlú anois agus arís nach gcloíonn na hoifigigh leis na rialacha agus ba mhaith linn miniú a fháil ón Aire faoin scéal seo ar fad.
Ba mhaith liomsa a rá nach bhfuil mise ag cur milleáin ar aon duine faoi theacht isteach anseo agus sin é an fáth go bhfuil an áis seo againne i ndeireadh chuile lá Dála le rudaí den tsaghas seo a phlé agus, go deimhin, tá áthas orm go bhfuil an deis seo againn an cheist seo a chíoradh anseo agus freagraí a thabhairt ar na ráitis atá á ndéanamh go poiblí sna nuachtáin agus in áiteanna eile le cúpla lá anuas. Mar adeirim, tá áthas orm an deis a fháil len é seo a dhéanamh.
Ceapaim go bhfuil polaitíocht á plé anseo ar bhealach amháin nó ar bhealach eile. Nílimse sásta glacadh leis go bhfuil airgead poiblí á chaitheamh ar bhealach atá mí-chóir nó mi-cheart, agus is cuma cad deireann an Teachta Gallagher as Tír Chonaill, tá faitíos orm go bhfuil mise freagrach as aon chaiteachas, cibé caoi a chaitheadh é. Tá mise freagrach agus sin sin agus glacaim freagracht iomlán as.
Tá cuid de na ráitis a cuireadh amach bréagach, mí-chruinn go deimhin agus bréagach in áiteanna agus dúirt an Teachta Paddy Gallagher gurb é an rud a chuir seisean ar bís ná gur caitheadh an t-airgead ar fad no an chuid is mó dhe i bhfoisceacht cúig mhíle de theach an Teachta McGinley. Ní shin é an t-eolas atá agamsa agus luaigh sé go raibh bóithre ar oiléan agus nár caitheadh airgead orthu. Caitheadh £5,000 ar bhóthar ar Arainn Mhór agus chaith an chomhairle chontae £5,000 ann chomh maith ag an am gcéanna agus is cosúil go raibh sé ag teastáil go géar. Caitheadh thart ar £5,000 taobh amuigh de pharóiste Ghaoth Dobhair chomh maith ar bhóithre áise, ar thithe agus áiteanna eile. Táimid ag caint anseo ar iomlán de £16,000 go £18,000 chomh fada agus is eol dom, agus caitheadh a trian de sin i nGaoth Dóbhair. Ceann de na deacrachtaí atá againn, tá mí-thuiscint anseo agus rinne an Teachta Paddy Gallagher tagairt dó, go ndúirt sé nár chomhlíonadh na rialacha. An tuiscint a bhí aige siúd ar na rialacha ná go raibh na rialacha cosúil le rialacha LIS. Seo é an mí-thuiscint, mar níl siad cosúil. B'fheidir — agus tá mé sásta breathnú air seo — go mb'fhearr rialacha dochta, daingne a leagan síos cosúil le rialacha an LIS agus nach mbeadh aon mhí-thuiscint ann faoi seo as seo amach agus má cheapann na Teachtaí thall ansin agus Teachtaí an Tí seo go mba cheart é sin a dhéanamh ta mise sásta breathnú air sin. Is é an mí-thuiscint atá ann nach bhfuil na rialacha a bhaineann leis an scéim seo atá againn cosúil leis an scéim sin. Níl siad chomh docht, cuir i gcás, leis na rialacha a bhaineann le LIS, agus ba mhaith liom a rá chomh maith nach nglacaim leis go ndearna oifigigh na Roinne neamairt san obair a bhí idir lámha acu.
Dúirt an Teachta Paddy Gallagher, gur cheap sé nach raibh meastacháin faite againn. Dúirt sé ar láimh amháin nach raibh agus ar an láimh eile go bhfuaireamar meastacháin ach nach bhfuaireamar iad ar an mbealach ceart. Ba mhaith liom mar Aire a chur in iúl dó go bhfuil mise sásta seasamh anseo agus a rá nach ligfinn pingin rua amháin amach as an Roinn gan meastachán a fháil, ar an gcéad dul síos, agus ansin scéal a fháil ar ais go raibh an obair críochnaithe de réir cibé rialacha atá leagtha síos ag na daoine a thug an meastachán isteach an chéad lá. Anois tig leat a ghlacadh uaim go bhfuil ansin cóip agamsa de na meastacháin, de chuile phíosa oibre a bhí idir lámha, go bhfuil ansin chomh maith scéal ar ais go raibh an obair críochnaithe agus is ar an mbun sin a íocadh an t-airgead.
Maidir le imní a bheith ar dhaoine a tarraingíodh isteach sa scéal seo go poiblí, daoine a ainmníodh, pictiúirí ar na páipéir, ní theastaíonn ó aon duine go dtarraingeofaí iad isteach i rudaí mar seo, gnáth-dhaoine, daoine próbháideacha. Ní ceart go ndéanfaí amhlaidh ach rinneadh é agus ní dóigh liom gur ceart dóibh aon náire nó imní a bheith orthu, mar ní orthu siúd atá an locht gur tarraingíodh isteach san rud seo iad. Is é an rud atá á rá agam go bhfuil an scéim ann, go mb'fhéidir gur ceart é a leasú agus, mar adeirim, sa chás seo ní raibh rialacha an LIS i bhfeidhm.
Déarfainnse, agus bhí mise im chomhairleoir contae chomh maith agus bhain mé úsáid as an scéim LIS le mo linn agus ó thaobh na polaitíochta de fiú amháin agus gan dul thar an leibhéal sin, ó thaobh na bpolaiteoirí féin de, iad go bhfuil airgead le caitheamh acu faoi, cuir i gcás, an LIS, tá sé i bhfad níos fearr agus i bhfad níos fiúntaí agus i bhfad níos ciallmhaire freastal ar leath-dhosaen teach ná freastal ar theach amháin má chuireann tú do shuimeanna le chéile. Sin é an rud ciallmhar a dhéanamh.
Ach tá obair déanta anseo mar atá a fhios ag Teachtaí. Ní ligeann Airí airgead amach as a Roinn gan rudaí faoi leith a bheith comhlíonta. Anois, ma chuirtear ceist ormsa an ndeachaigh mise síos agus go bhfaca mé céard a bhí ar siúl, ní dheachaigh agus ni dóigh liom go mbeadh aon duine ag súil go ndéanfainn sin agus ní bheadh gach aon duine ag súil go ndéanfadh aon duine eile é ach oiread ach comhlíonadh na rialacha maidir le meastacháin, maidir le scéala. Tig leat m'fhocal a ghlacadh mar Aire nó gan é a ghlacadh. Is féidir leis an Teachta bheith sásta go raibh meastacháin agam ón chomhairle chontae, ó innealtóir na comhairle chontae. Tig leat glacadh uaim nach n-insím bréaga agus má tá ag cur i mo leith go bhfuil mé ag insint bréaga abair é.
(Cur isteach.)
An nglacann tú uaim go bhfuair mise meastachán agus chomh maith leis sin——
An bhfuair tú iad ó phriomh oifig Chomhairle Chontae Dhún na nGall?
Níl a fhios agam.
An nglacann an tAire m'fhocalsa——
The Minister must be allowed to conclude. He has only half a minute.
Íocadh amach airgead tar éis domsa meastachán a fháil ó innealltóir oilte — níl aithne agamsa ar innealltóir amháin i dTír Chonaill — agus ina dhiaidh sin nár íocadh pingin rua amach go bfhuair mise scéal ó innealtóir oilte go raibh an job déanta. Sin é mo scéalsa. Tig leat é a chreidiúint nó gan é a chreidiúint. Ní féidir liomsa dul thar sin ach stopfaidh mé ag an bpointe seo, a Cheann Comhairle. Má tá daoine sa Teach seo a cheapann gur féidir feabhas a chur ar an scéim trí rialacha dochta, daingne a leagadh síos as seo amach, breathnóidh mé air sin. Ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó airgid le caitheamh agam ar bhóithre na Gaeltachta in 1986, i bhfad níos mó, agus tá súil agam go rachaidh sé chun socair mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus go gcaithfear é ar bhealach go mbeadh chuile dhuine sa Teach seo sásta leis.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 February 1986.