asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce the present position regarding the proposed new office of fair trading; and the proposed staffing levels of the office.
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers. - Office of Fair Trading.
30.
The proposed new fair trade arrangements will come into effect as soon as the necessary legislation has been enacted by the Oireachtas. I expect to circulate the Bill to Deputies before the end of the present session.
It is proposed that there will be two offices under the new arrangement, the Office of Director of Consumer Affairs and the Fair Trade Commission. The present staff complement is 25 in the area from which the director will assume responsibility and 11 in the area for which the commission will be responsible. The staffing needs of these offices will be kept under review having regard, inter alia, to Government policy on staffing levels in the Civil Service.
Could I ask the Minister if he will expand on a remark made by him at the annual lunch of the Federation of Trade Associations recently where he made a pretty wide-ranging speech? He referred to price monitoring activities which had taken place since the abolition of the National Prices Commission and the price line offices, which has left the consumers unprotected and I would be pleased if he could give me some indication of the monitoring he has undertaken and that which he proposes to undertake in the interests of protection of consumers.
When the prices commission were abolished they were abolished on the basis that there would be a saving of about £300,000 and because inflation was quite low and is now approaching zero figures that competition in the market place would keep prices down in the absence of control. If particular sectors or particular areas were seen to cause difficulty it was because competition was not allowed to operate. In areas such as these, all the powers of the Prices Acts are still available to me and I would refer the problem area to the Commission on Restrictive Practices to establish if competition was being inhibited. With the staff available to me in the Department and the residual staff in the prices commission I had surveys carried out on the price of petrol. As the Deputy is aware, half of the outlets surveyed were overcharging, many of them significantly. They were resurveyed subsequently and now about 91 per cent, representing practically all the volume——
Is the monitoring on an ongoing basis?
This was a once off targeting as a result of complaints which came into the Department. The petrol aspect is now OK. They are at the right price. A small group of retailers are still overcharging but they represent a very small amount of the total volume. Another area which was causing difficulty or seemed to be on the basis of complaints coming in to me was the price of drink. This was referred to the Commission on Restrictive Practices and I am awaiting a full report on that area. It was along those lines I spoke at that particular luncheon and gave the information which was available to me.
Would the Minister make available to me a report he has received from the Commission on Restrictive Practices on the question of building societies, insurance and valuation arrangements?
That was published some time in May and I would have thought the Deputy would have got a copy in the normal way but I will get him a copy.
That concludes Question Time.
On a point of order, I submitted a Private Notice Question concerning the initiative taken by the Taoiseach to rescue Bewley's cafes and I asked whether there was any cost involved to the Exchequer or if any State agencies would participate in the rescue operation. A Cheann Comhairle, your reply says you regret that you have to disallow the question. I am not questioning it.
Will the Deputy give way to the Chair for a moment please?
Surely.
I had better say this now. I received today about four questions for Private Notice. I considered those questions carefully in accordance with Standing Orders and precedent. I was clearly of the opinion that those questions did not qualify for Private Notice and, accordingly, I ruled them out of order. I certainly did not rule them out of order lightly. It would be much more pleasant for me to admit them all than to rule them out of order. I have no alternative. In accordance with the long standing precedent in this House going back to the foundation of the Chamber the Chair never has and I do not intend to start, discussed its rulings in the House. If I were to do that, for example, today I would have four different arguments to deal with. It just would not work. I am sorry, but that is the position.
I have no intention of arguing with the Chair but I have a request to make in this respect. I have sought over the past two days through all the formulae available to me, the Order of Business, Private Notice Question yesterday, Adjournment Debate and Private Notice Question today——
The Deputy is now wrangling with the Chair.
I want to ask how come yesterday the answer to my question was that the Taoiseach had no function and today the answer to my question is that it lacks urgency?
The Deputy obviously has not been listening to me.
I have been listening very carefully.
I have said that I cannot and I will not enter into a discussion on my rulings in this House.
A Cheann Comhairle, could I ask for advice as a new Deputy in this House, if I may say that? How may I raise in this House the Taoiseach's initiative on Bewley's and his lack of initiative for Cork?
The Deputy is being disorderly.
I have no intention of being disorderly.
I am afraid you are.
I have tried in an orderly fashion and I have tried every avenue open to me in so far as——
I am asking the Deputy to resume his seat. Deputy Allen.
The Adjournment, Deputy.
I have tried the Adjournment. The reply I got was that there was no ministerial involvement.
I am calling Deputy Bertie Ahern.
A Cheann Comhairle, I do not wish to enter into argument with you. I raised this issue a fortnight ago on the agricultural officers' dispute. The position appears to be that when there is a major industrial dispute — I shall not go into the details of the one I sought to raise — and when a Deputy raises it once, it appears as if its urgency is in your mind then lost. I would contend that two of the questions down in the names of Deputy De Rossa and me to two different Ministers were putting forward the reason that this is now a matter of urgency today, different from what it was yesterday or last week. That contention is based on four issues: one, that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have called for an all-out picket which is at present under discussion; second, there is a danger of the dispute spreading to the county if there is not a resolution found by tomorrow; third, that the Army are now involved; and, fourth, there is a danger that the peace that had obtained on the picket lines at the various tipheads will disappear, the workers will feel that the Army are now involved and will block the public coming to these tipheads. It is on those four grounds I would contend it is now an urgent matter, more urgent than it was yesterday.
I have no reason to argue with you, a Cheann Comhairle, but it seems to be a fair argument on the part of Deputies on all sides of the House who wish to see a resolution of this very serious dispute, unless you can prove to me that it is not urgent. I know how the system works. I know the difficulty you are in, a Cheann Comhairle. I would have thought that if the Minister who gave me an undertaking in the course of the Labour Estimate last week was interested in solving this dispute he would be glad to come into this House and endeavour to get both sides back to the Labour Court. That is all we are seeking — not to argue with the Chair, not to have any difficulty with anybody else, but to get the Minister for Labour to bring both sides in this very serious dispute back into the Labour Court, avoiding all of this unnecessary argument.
I decided that I would allow Deputy Bertie Ahern to make his case because he is a former Chief Whip of the largest party in the Dáil and is a highly respected Member of the House. But to anybody listening it is quite clear that my earlier statement was meant to cover the situation in general in regard to Private Members' questions and the rulings of the Chair in particular. Somebody has to be charged with making the rulings. I have made the rulings. I have made them in good faith. That is all I can say: I made them in good faith and without any bias one way or the other. I am not going to discuss these rulings in the House. That is in accordance with a rule of the House that is older than the carpet on the floor. I am not going to go back on that. The reason for it should be obvious. I am sorry I cannot help further. That is the position. I take the view, rightly or wrongly, that it is bad enough for the Chair to have to wrangle with one Deputy, but when that Deputy either becomes exhausted or decides to sit down and another Deputy then gets up on the very same line, that is grossly disorderly. I have dealt with all the questions that were put today and I am not dealing with any more.
A Cheann Comhairle, you are implying that there is some kind of collusion between Deputies in this House. I should like to deny that for a start. But could I make the point——
The Deputy cannot make a point. If he has a request to make, I will listen to it.
I am not actually arguing with your ruling on my Private Notice Question concerning the Dublin Corporation strike. But it seems to me that if the Minister concerned was anxious to come into this House to make a statement that——
That is a gross abuse——
It is not.
——of the privileges of the House, what the Deputy is now doing. I have ruled on these questions.
The Minister could come in here if he wanted.
The Deputy can take up that matter with his party whip.
You mentioned Standing Orders, Sir. Therefore, I presume I am in order in making a point of order, as you have had recourse to Standing Orders——
I was referring to Standing Orders in general.
I would just like to make the point to you that perhaps you would consider that there must be something quite extraordinary about your interpretation of Standing Orders if in the course of two days ten questions put forward by Deputies in all good faith as being of urgent public importance have had to be ruled out. I mentioned this to you before. Perhaps, to make life easier for yourself and for all of us, something might be raised at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges over which you competently and wisely preside.
Again, on a point of order, I might make this point to you, a Cheann Comhairle, that on the question that Deputy Lyons was seeking to raise it seems to us extraordinary that yesterday a question was ruled out of order on the basis that the Taoiseach had no function and exactly the same sort of question today was ruled out of order because it was not urgent. I put it to you, Sir, that it seems there is a very clear contradiction in ruling there. If a certain type of question was ruled out of order yesterday because the Taoiseach had no function, namely the Egan case, it might perhaps have been ruled out of order today on the same basis, that the Taoiseach had no function. It does seem extraordinary that a similar type of question, was ruled out of order today on a different basis, namely, urgency.
I welcome a discussion on matters like this at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I hope I will not be regarded as being smart, or appearing to be smart, when I say that rarely in my term of office over four years did we have them. I welcome any of these matters that are brought up. If there is a consensus on a certain thing we will see where we go from there. Just because I had to rule out of order four questions today and six yesterday does not make the thing right or any different. I think Deputy Haughey will not disagree with me when I say that, when he and I came in here in or about the same time, a Private Notice Question was as rare as is a good day now.
There are more problems now.
It hardly ever happened.
I might point out to you, a Cheann Comhairle, that you are, after all, the guardian and protector of the rights of Deputies. You are the distinguished Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I have said this to you before. You often say to us "Let some Deputy raise it at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges". Perhaps you yourself would put some proposal before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to alleviate or obviate what you regard as a very distressing and unhappy series of events at this time of the day every day the House is sitting. Perhaps, in your own interest, for your own self-protection, and to avoid the difficulties which this matter causes you, in being fair, in giving rulings and interpretations here, you yourself would put before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges some new formula for deciding these matters.
I would say, Deputy, that it is not customary for the Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to initiate something, that usually it comes from the Whip of one of the major parties. I will certainly co-operate with the Deputy. I will agree that I do regard it, perhaps not stressful, because when one takes on a job one has to do it, but as a distasteful part of my job to come in here day after day arguing on points that are obviously out of order.
I might make one final submission to you on this point, on a point of order, that is that apart from obviating these wrangles over procedure, urgency, public importance and other aspects, it would certainly help to make this House more relevant in the public mind if we had some way whereby a question of this sort could be brought forward as they are brought forward in other Parliaments.
Sin cheist eile.
The fact that perhaps none of your predecessors ever decided to take an initiative on this matter should not prevent your doing so.
I wish to ask the Minister for Labour on the Adjournment to reconsider his decision in relation to CERT keeping the training school at Rockwell College open. There are 120 students attending the school. It has brought honour to Ireland and the hotel business. Since 1958 students have received awards throughout Europe. I hope my question will not be disallowed.
The Deputy cannot make a speech.
It is a disgrace that it should be allowed to close down. I hope the Minister will come into the House and answer this question.
No one underestimates the difficult task of being Ceann Comhairle and I am sure the Ceann Comhairle is equally aware of the difficulties posed for Members of the House. I understood Deputy Lyons' question was in order and I seek the Chair's guidance on how a matter involving discrimination can be brought before the House.
I have dealt with that question and I do not intend to deal with it in depth.
Why can Egan's of Patrick Street not get the same kind of treatment as Bewley's in Dublin? I do not begrudge the treatment being given to Bewleys.
The Deputy should resume his seat.
I will. I want to put that on the record. This is discrimination.
May I have Question No. 31 left on the Order Paper, please, as my priority one.