asked the Minister for Finance the total amount of moneys for travelling and incidental expenses provided for in the Revised Estimates for Public Services for 1987; the percentage increase in these items over the 1986 outturn; and the reasons for the real increase in the level of these items over the rate of inflation in the light of reduced airfares and lower petrol prices.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Travelling and Incidental Expenses.
52.
The total amount provided for travelling and incidental expenses in the 1987 Revised Estimates Volume is £55.922 million compared with £53.427 million in 1986, an increase of 4.7 per cent.
Within this overall allocation, the amount provided for travelling and subsistence expenses is £37.497 million, compared with £37.163 million in 1986, an increase of 0.89 per cent. There has, therefore, been no real increase allowed in the level of travel expenditure. Incidental expenses have increased by 13.3 per cent, or 10 per cent in real terms, from £16.264 million in 1986 to £18.425 million in 1987. This category covers a variety of expenses such as staff training and development, tuition fees, uniforms, laundry, cleaning services, newspapers, periodicals, official entertainment and other miscellaneous items.
Does the Minister of State agree that a 10 per cent increase in real terms in items which are subject to the ordinary comsumer price index is not warranted in a year in which the CPI is anticipated to rise by about 3.5 per cent? The information now given by the Minister of State shows that for matters including tuition fees, entertainment by State Departments and so on, the real cost is going up, in a year of cutbacks, by 10 per cent. As the gross figure is 13.3 per cent, there is grave cause for disquiet when a real increase of 10 per cent in these categories of expenditure is undertaken by the Government without an explanation to the House or any indication as to why such expenditure should increase in a year of cutbacks.
I appreciate what the Deputy says but the expenditure covers a large volume of services and includes staff training and development. The State must ensure that ample opportunities are provided for the public service to update information and to be aware of developments in modern technology so that it can operate as efficiently as possible to give a proper service.
What is it this year that gives rise to the increase of 10 per cent in real terms over last year's figure which, presumably, increased on the figure for the year before? How much of that amount is made up of State expenditure in relation to State entertainment? What if any, reduction was there in travelling expenses to take into account cheaper air fares and petrol which, undoubtedly, have occurred over the past 12 months?
Account is taken of cheaper air fares in the amount of money provided. I do not have the figures of the exact amount allocated for any particular service which I outlined. They are overall figures but account has been taken of the fact that travel and subsistence rates have remained steady and no increases have been approved since the budget.
What about entertainment?
I do not have the exact figures in that regard but if they are available I will communicate with the Deputy.
Does the Minister of State not agree that people are entitled to be anxious and disquieted by the information that these incidental expenditures, which are on top of State earnings, have increased this year by 10 per cent in real terms? Does he also agree that it should be within the competence of his Department to bring forward detailed figures to show how the 10 per cent is made up and to account for every item in a time of cutbacks?
I am quite satisfied that it is within the competence of my Department to provide the necessary figures. They already have this information but the Deputy will agree that he did not ask for specific information in his question. If he had done so he would have got such information. I am satisfied that the expenses referred to are not incidental; they are ongoing, repetitive expenses on an annual basis which must be provided for and they have been contained by the Government since they came into office.
Why did the expenses outstrip the rate of inflation?
The figures are those deemed necessary when the Estimates were prepared. I am confident that the Department of Finance, who have the overall responsibility of ensuring that each Department work within the budget and give proper accountability for the expenses incurred, will ensure that we get the best value for money. At the end of the year, if there is a saving in this area, we will be pleased to report it
Does the Minister agree that people are entitled to be disquieted if civil servants effectively increase their expenses at a time when everyone else is being asked to cut back? Is it not odd that their expenses should go up by 10 per cent in real terms at a time when the expenses of everyone else in the community are declining, held static or at least are in accordance with the general rate of inflation? Why are civil servants an economic law unto themselves?
I do not accept that civil servants' expenses have increased to such an extent that they are causing disquiet. The expenses referred to are those incurred by members of the State staff in the execution of their duties on behalf of the State, not necessarily for themselves. The figures to which I referred have been agreed and will be proved to be satisfactory to meet the needs of the State for the coming year.
That disposes of ordinary and nominated questions for today. We have a little time before proceeding to the Order of Business. What does the House suggest we do?
I suggest we discuss Question No. 11.
The Chair is serious.
There are at least 50 questions put down for answer——
Please, Deputy, if you want the procedure varied you must amend Standing Orders. Is it agreed to have a recess until 3.45 p.m.? Agreed.
Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.45 p.m.