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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 May 1987

Vol. 373 No. 1

Estimates 1987. - Vote 42: Defence (Revised Estimate).

, Limerick West): I move:

That a sum not exceeding £260,270,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1987, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

The Defence Estimate for the year ending 31 December 1987 is for a net sum of £260,270,000. This a reduction of £2.6 million or 1 per cent on the corresponding outturn figure of £262,870,000 for 1986. The gross provision in the 1987 Estimate is £269,140,000.

The major part of the 1987 Estimate — 78 per cent or £203,182,000 — provides for pay and allowances and this represents an increase of £7,655,000 on the outturn for 1986. The non-pay items amount to £65,958,000; the comparable 1986 figure was £76,785,000 but it included exceptional expenditure amounting to £13,850,000 on helicopter purchases. The 1987 provision of £8,870,000 for Appropriation-in-Aid shows a decrease of £572,000 on the 1986 outturn.

The Estimate is based on an average strength of 1,610 officers, 60 cadets and 11,900 other ranks — a total of 13,570 in the Permanent Defence Force. The average strengths for 1986 were 1,565 officers, 53 cadets and 12,362 other ranks.

Before I make any detailed comment in relation to the Estimate I should perhaps put on record again the fact that the Defence Forces serve the State in many ways beyond their primary role of defence against external aggression. Indeed, we look to them to carry out a wide range of duties to help to create a secure stable environment, to provide a final bulwark in times of emergency and to add their own element of lustre to the life of the nation. They are there at all times to render service necessary in carrying out their statutory role of aiding the civil power. They add to our international status as they serve the cause of peace as contingents of the United Nations. They support on request the regular emergency services and their skill and value in such areas as search and rescue and air ambulance missions are widely acknowledged. They are prominent too in the effort to preserve and develop the country's marine and coastal resources as they carry out their assigned fishery protection and marine oil pollution response roles.

Regrettably, the assigned task in relation to internal security matters continues to be a dominant role. While the Garda Síochána have primary responsibility in this regard, the Defence Forces have a vital supporting part to play. The present security situation, especially in the Border areas, necessitates the deployment of Army personnel and resources on a large scale to assist the Garda Síochána in the maintenance of the rule of law.

The necessary preoccupation with internal security imposes a heavy burden on the personnel of the Defence Forces. The following particulars of the main security tasks undertaken in the 12 months up to March 1987 will give some idea of the level of demand on them in this area: about 11,000 military parties were supplied in Border areas for checkpoint duties and over 12,000 joint Garda/Army checkpoints were set up; more than 10,000 patrols were sent out into the road network along the Border; escorts for explosives and blasting operations were provided on about 1,000 occasions; over 3,000 escorts for the movement of cash were provided; and over 200 requests for bomb disposal teams were handled. The Army also provide guards for the movement of prisoners and assist in searches for arms, ammunition and explosives. In addition, certain vital non-military installations are protected either by permanent military guards or by military patrols.

When the country is facing economic difficulties and when, because of the scarcity of financial resources, many drastic economies over a wide area have to be made, it is sad that we should be obliged to commit such a substantial amount of defence expenditure in this direction. However, such a commitment is essential to the stability and security of the country and it is a commitment to which the Government will continue to give top priority. This is the price which has to be paid to maintain our democratic institutions.

A rather similar role which is again worthy of special mention is the service rendered abroad by the Irish Defence Forces in the cause of international peace. Deputies will be well aware that our forces have a proud and honourable record in carrying out a number of United Nations peacekeeping missions.

At the present time, an Irish contingent of about 745 all ranks is serving with the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon — UNIFIL. Eight members of the Permanent Defence Force are serving with the United Nations Force in Cyprus and 21 Irish officers are serving with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation — UNTSO — in the Middle East. Through their dedication and selfless efforts in the cause of peace, these troops and other military personnel who have served the State overseas have brought credit to the Defence Forces and to Ireland.

It has been well demonstrated that our troops have the necessary attributes to make a success of the difficult task of peacekeeping. The personality of the peacekeeping soldier is of the utmost importance in fulfilling his role and he must show qualities of understanding, tact and firmness. The key to successful peacekeeping is impartiality coupled with adaptation to the cultural background of the groups encountered in the peace-keeping areas. It is fair to say that in this respect Irish soldiers have not been surpassed.

Personnel selected for overseas service undergo a rigorous programme of training designed to help them carry out their peacekeeping mission and to provide for their protection at times of stress and tension. In recent times troops of the Irish contingent serving with UNIFIL have been required to operate in difficult and often tense situations. Incidents involving firing at Irish troops or their positions, and other events such as confrontations at check-points, have occurred. All such incidents are protested about locally to the parties involved in the conflict and are also the subject of vigorous protests as necessary at diplomatic level.

Despite the difficulties which it has faced, UNIFIL remains an element for stability in south Lebanon. It plays a large part in protecting the local population from the activities of the Israeli forces and the so-called South Lebanon Army. Its presence is welcomed both by the local population and by the Lebanese Government. Since first participating in UNIFIL, Irish troops have worked for the benefit of the local people and they have contributed much to restoring peace and normality in their area of operations.

It is a matter of great regret that since August 1986 the unstable situation and the harassment of our troops has resulted in the deaths of three Irish personnel. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute again to all those who have made the supreme sacrifice in pursuing the ideals of peace.

As Minister for Defence, I am particularly concerned about the safety and welfare of our troops in Lebanon and these matters are kept under constant review. I intend in the very near future to visit personnel of the Defence Forces serving in the Middle East and Lebanon to see for myself the conditions under which they are required to operate.

I should like to mention that Lieutenant-General Callaghan, who served for over five years as Force Commander, UNIFIL, will be retiring next month from his present appointment as Chief of Staff, UNTSO. I would like to avail of this opportunity to pay a well-deserved tribute to him for his distinguished service at home and abroad and to wish him well in his retirement.

The nation as a whole should take pride in the achievements of the Defence Forces over the years in peacekeeping operations. The international recognition which we have won as peacekeepers has enhanced Ireland's ability to speak out independently in the various matters of foreign policy and international affairs which concern us. For the wide range of duties which they perform, often in tedious and dangerous circumstances, the officers and men of the Defence Forces are indeed deserving of our gratitude. Their high standard of service which is given so willingly to the community is in the best traditions of the Defence Forces. They, together with the Garda Síochána, who act in defence of our institutions and basic freedoms, are entitled to our full support and commendations. People on a nine-to-five job may not always remember that the duties which our security forces perform often entail long absences from home and inevitably cause a disruption to family life. I am well aware of the support and encouragement given by the families of security personnel and they also deserve our gratitude and appreciation.

There are a number of specific matters which merit some comment and I should now like to advert to these items. I have already given a general picture of current strengths and commitments. The question of an intake of recruits later this year will be examined in the context of the general financial constraints and the overall budgetary situation. The overriding consideration, however, is the adequacy of numbers to meet requirements and this will continue to be the guiding principle.

The pay and conditions of service generally of members of the Defence Forces continue to be maintained at a reasonable level. The Government are concerned to ensure that the remuneration of the Defence Forces keeps pace with that of other sectors of the public service. The starting pay of a recruit is now almost £130 per week. After about 14 weeks' basic training it rises to £150. On advancement to private three star, gross pay rises to over £155, while after three years' service, the gross pay of a private is over £170. I am sure that the House will agree that these rates of pay are reasonable.

Allowances are payable to officers and men who perform duties of a security nature. The rates of these allowances are kept constantly under review to ensure that personnel are adequately compensated for the duties which they are required to undertake. These allowances were increased by 3 per cent with effect from 1 January 1987. The current rates of allowances for service in the Border areas are £21.91 per week for officers and £19.04 per week for men, while the allowances for other duties in aid of the civil power such as guard duties on vital installations, cash escorts and prisoner escorts were increased to £9.33 for each week-day and £18.66 for each Sunday or Army holiday.

Education and training in the Defence Forces are very important. At present there are 86 officers attending full time at university and similar institutions. In addition, members of the Permanent Defence Force who attend educational courses in their own time may be recouped costs of tuition and examinations. In association with AnCO there is a scheme whereby apprentices may be qualified in various trades.

Competitions for the award of cadetships in the Army and Air Corps were held in 1986 and 44 cadetships, including four to female personnel were awarded. The question of further competitions for 1987 is at present being examined. Last year 59 apprenticeships in the Army Apprentice School, Naas, and the Air Corps Apprentice School, Baldonnel, were awarded.

Seventeen non-commissioned officers are at present attending a potential officers' course. The course, which is of nine months' duration, will finish in June 1987 and the successful participants will be commissioned as officers of the Permanent Defence Force.

As regards the FCA and Slua Muirí, I regret that it has again been found necessary to reduce annual training by seven days. The reduction continues to be necessary as part of the Government's programme for achieving reductions in the level of public expenditure. The saving involved is substantial, being almost £2 million. Notwithstanding the reduced period, however, it has again been decided that the gratuity payable to qualified members of the Reserve who complete the maximum permissible period in 1987 will be at the full rates and not at the reduced rates which would normally apply in respect of attendance at training for the shorter period.

In order to maintain the capability of the Defence Forces to carry out their various roles, the estimate provides almost £66 millions for non-pay including the maintenance and improvement of equipment. The programme of improvements will continue within the financial constraints necessarily imposed on all Government spending. Some modern equipment will be purchased this year and in this connection I wish to say that the replacement of the 7.62 mm FN Rifle, which has been used by the Defence Forces over the past 25 years is under consideration. A number of weapons have been undergoing evaluation by the military authorities and this process is expected to be concluded over the next few months. It is hoped it will be possible to place a contract for an initial supply of a new weapon before the end of this year.

All the new Dauphin helicopters have now been delivered and will be fully operational by the autumn. At present, a programme of familiarisation and training for personnel is nearing completion. The helicopters have already carried out a number of operations and when fully operational they will increase the capability of the Air Corps to fly in bad weather and over water and to provide improved search and rescue, and air ambulance services.

There is a continuous programme of improving uniform components in the light of modern developments. For instance, a new style working dress, composed of tunic and trousers or, alternatively, sweater and trousers, will be worn by personnel engaged in general duties thus reserving the service tunic and trousers for ceremonial parades and more formal occasions. In addition, a new style waterproof tunic and trousers, together with a field cap, will be worn over the combat uniform by personnel during periods of inclement weather.

Provision of £9 million is made in subhead S of the Estimate for building and engineering works as compared with last year's outturn of £8.8 million. This includes a capital sum of £6 million for new buildings and major refurbishment works. This provision will permit some improvements to be made in the accommodation and other facilities for the Defence Forces.

The proposed improvements include the construction of new billets; the building of new catering complexes; the development of recreational areas; the provision of new administrative and operational accommodation as well as the renovation and modernisation of existing accommodation.

In recent years new billets with modern amenities have been built at a number of locations. It is hoped to have contracts placed for further such billets at Cathal Brugha Barracks, Dublin, and Lifford Military Post, County Donegal in the near future. Renovations of existing billets will continue to have a high priority.

Work is proceeding at present on the building of a catering complex at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel. Site clearance works for a new barracks at Cavan and hangar refurbishment work at Baldonnel are also under way. It is hoped to have a contract signed for the construction of the new Cavan barracks before the end of the year.

A new cookhouse/dining hall has recently been provided at Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, County Cork. Arrangements are being made for the provision of similar accommodation at other locations. Major maintenance works such as reroofing and rewiring are also being undertaken.

While new accommodation and facilities are required in various locations, particularly in Border areas, we may question the need for the continued retention of some of the older barracks and posts which were built for conditions totally different from those obtaining today. The maintenance and operation of the older posts is expensive in manpower and money. With a view to a possible rationalisation, I am having the whole area examined to see whether our present dispositions are the most cost effective. It may well be that a number of locations can be designated as surplus to requirements.

The Department have for a long time been involved in equitation through the Army Equitation School; 1986 was a successful year for the school and Army riders won prize money in excess of £32,000.

Another special Departmental programme is the Asgard sail training scheme. "Asgard II" completed a full programme of cruises during 1986 involving 527 trainees. There was increased sponsorship of trainees during the year, including sponsorship by the probation and welfare service and the Youth Employment Agency. Sponsorship helps young people who can derive most benefit from cruises on "Asgard II" but are least able to afford the fees. This is something which Coiste An Asgard are most anxious to encourage.

I would now like to turn to the matter of civil defence. Deputies will be aware that the civil defence organisation in Ireland is a very important element in our defence against the threat of war, particularly the threat of nuclear war. Civil defence is based on a volunteer force organised under the local authorities in all parts of the country. Its elements consist of the warden, welfare, casualty, rescue and auxiliary fire services, and its purpose is to minimise the effects of war on the civilian population. It does, however, also provide considerable service to the population in peacetime, whether in the event of a nuclear accident abroad or a disaster at home.

The provision of £1.75 million for civil defence in 1987 will facilitate the continuing development and improvement of this vital part of national defence measures. The Minister of State will go into this matter in more detail.

Various other purchase programmes are being continued this year to cater for the needs of each civil defence service. An information package on civil defence will be made available to schools for the 1987-88 year.

It is only fitting that I should pay particular tribute to the many thousands of volunteers of the civil defence organisation throughout the country who give so generously of their time and effort in the service of the community. We are very much indebted to all our volunteers for this generosity. I would like also to extend this tribute to all members of the voluntary aid societies affiliated to civil defence.

I move now to the Army Pensions Estimate for the year ending 31 December 1987. The Estimate is for a net sum of £41,015,000 which represents an increase of £3,304,000 or 9 per cent on the 1986 outturn.

The Estimate provides for the balance of increases due in 1987 under the public service pay deal and a grade claim and for the second stage of a concession announced in the 1986 budget on ex gratia pensions payable to widows and children of former members of the Defence Forces. Under this concession the difference between the rates of these ex gratia pensions and the corresponding contributory pensions was eliminated as from 1 January 1987.

The main increase in 1987 as compared with the 1986 outturn is £3,250,000 under subhead E1. This subhead provides for retired pay, pensions and gratuities granted under Defence Forces pensions schemes. The increase is due mainly to the rise in the number of gratuities payable to officers and men on retirement and to increases in pensions payable to their dependants.

There are reductions in the provisions relating to pensions and allowances payable to veterans of the War of Independence due to a fall in their numbers. The number of military service pensioners on pay is 898. In addition, there are 2,025 in receipt of special allowances under the Army Pensions Acts. As well, there are 7,021 widows of former veterans on pay.

Before I conclude I want to comment on one or two matters which stem from the general recovery programme which is being pursued diligently by the Government. One is the question of decentralisation. The reduction of regional imbalances and the stimulation of further development of local centres outside the Dublin region are among the objectives of the Government. I am happy to say there will be a contribution from my Department in this regard through the decentralisation of a substantial proportion of the Department to new offices to be built in Galway. The number of staff to be transferred, approximately, 200, is equivalent to about one-third of the total staff.

A brief summary of the present position is that a site has already been selected on the Department's property at Renmore and the Office of Public Works have commenced the process of seeking tenders. Under that process, private concerns will be asked to provide the required accommodation, meet all building costs and lease the property to the State with an option to purchase. My Department have initiated the process of planning and preparing to decentralise as decided by the Government when the new offices are ready. The transfer will, as far as possible, be on a voluntary basis and I am sure the move will be equally welcomed by the people of Galway and the Civil Service staff who decide to relocate in that highly regarded area of the country.

Another matter is the question of a broad organisational review of defence. The role of our Defence Forces is well understood and widely accepted. The process of review at the various levels within the organisation is an ongoing feature. However, from time to time each large organisation needs a special, more intensive examination to ensure it is functioning as efficiently and as effectively as possible. It would be remiss of me, as a newly appointed Minister for Defence taking up office in a critical economic situation, if I did not ensure that the defence area was given due attention in the wide-ranging organisational and financial review which is being conducted by the Government. I have, therefore, directed the civil and military authorities of my Department to give special immediate attention to an organisational review to ensure, among other things, that the concentration of resources and effort is in the proper direction, that the best possible use is being made of the available pool of skilled personnel and that the maximum benefit will be obtained from the necessary commitment of funds for defence purposes.

In the current drive to reverse the economic graph, indeed to alter the mood of the nation, it is fitting that we should recall the old Gaelic proverb, "Ní neart go cur le chéile". What is divisive in society we must strive to eliminate and in every possible way we must nurture a spirit of teamwork. Daily, in my new appointment as Minister for Defence, I see teamwork in operation. I see it not alone within the Defence Forces but also in the Department whose unique legal structure of civil and military branches calls for excellent teamwork and co-operation if the Department is to function as it should. I am glad to say that it does and I should like to compliment and thank my officials, with and without insignia of office, for combining as they do in the interests of society at large. Those who serve within the public sector may get more than their fair share of blame and some of their good deeds may go unrecognised. The Government intend to do what they can to redress the balance because we know that only a motivated public sector and a motivated people can move to the better state of affairs to which we aspire.

I commend both Estimates to the favourable consideration of the House.

An occasion such as this presents us with an opportunity to examine the Estimate for the Department of Defence and to take a look at both the Army and the Naval services and all related matters. There are many aspects of this Estimate which I would like to speak about but because of the constraints on time I will refer to two or three aspects of the policy which I consider we should pursue in the future. As the Minister outlined in his speech, the main purpose of our Army, or of any army for that matter, is to provide protection for its citizens against external aggression. That is a role which many people seem to forget and it is a role which will take on a new significance in the future, one very different from the traditional role.

I would regard the Army's peace-keeping role and their special relationship with the civil power which in the eyes of the ordinary individual is becoming more apparent every day, as their next most important objectives. Society now dictates for one reason or another — usually for the wrong one — that there is greater Army presence on our streets, even in our provincial towns. As legislators we must take a close look at this development. It is our responsibility to ensure that the organs of State function in the normal way and that individuals can go about their ordinary every day business without fear. It is unfortunate but we have to accept that it is a sign of the times we live in that you can barely shift a £5 note from A to B without having protection from both the Garda and the Army. There is no point in wasting time talking about the reasons for this development; there will be other occasions on which to do that but the increased spectacle of convoys accompanied by the Army, particularly during the past ten years, is leading to many people asking whether that is a proper role for the Army or whether the commercial enterprises should pay for that protection. This role in recent times has put a great strain on the budget of the Department of Defence. I do not wish to get into any controversy but those are matters which the ordinary citizen is talking about at present.

A debate such as this gives us an opportunity to query some aspects of our defence policy and to be critical in areas where it is felt that we as legislators should be calling for changes which are necessary in this modern age. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I would like to compliment the Army on their overseas activities in the many war torn areas around the world. Let me say it is a tribute to the Defence Forces that they have remained as a peacekeeping force in those areas and have not allowed themselves be drawn into local disputes which are sometimes contrived and manipulated by self-styled leaders who are interested in power rather than in responsibility. Our Defence Forces have conducted themselves with honour in each of the assignments they have undertaken all over the world and none more so than in the most complicated of areas in Lebanon. I was delighted to hear the Minister say that shortly he is going to review the situation. The scene in Lebanon is ever changing and I would like to say that although we have played a very important peacekeeping role in that country we will have to keep our position under tabs in order to make sure that we do not end up as the meat in the sandwich. There will be many other forces who will be bringing pressure to bear on the various parties who are involved in that conflict. Of all the areas we have been involved in that is perhaps the most complicated.

Our forces together with the forces of other countries involved in UNIFII have done their best to keep the peace in Lebanon which admittedly is a shaky and a temporary one but it must always be remembered that the ultimate decisions will have to be made by those who will have to cohabitate in the territory involved. As I said, our sole aim is to act as peacekeeper and not as law enforcer. There are others who can and will enforce law and order once the politicians and community leaders have developed the proper environment in which law and order can flourish. To say, given the aggression on the world stage at present, that our role is insignificant is to completely ignore the so-called psychological reasons that internal disputes, even small internal disputes, can get out of hand. I have no doubt that our presence along with others has quelled what would be regarded as serious confrontations where the Super Powers could yield an undue amount of influence to the detriment of all those involved. It is a case of nipping those conflicts in the bud. Our Army deserves our gratitude. Many people living in areas which have been embroiled in serious conflict are thankful to the Irish people for giving the Army this role.

I now want to turn to an issue which has dominated our discussions during the past few months. This might be an opportunity to open up an intelligent and open-ended debate on our policy of neutrality, a question that has been trotted out on every stage right across the country in the past few weeks in particular. Now that the referendum on the Single European Act is over and the emotional vibes have subsided it may not be a bad exercise in the national interest to open up a discussion on this matter. I can understand and appreciate that neutrality is cherished by all of our people.

There are many questions to be asked. Do we play our full role as a neutral country in the search for world peace? Do we see a greater potential for us in this area? If we do, can we make our presence felt in conjuction with other like-minded States? With others, we can develop what I would describe as a more positive type of neutrality where the smaller, non-aligned countries can be more forceful in pursuing a role of peacemaking, of opinion forming and of the formation of the right climate. Our traditional and widely accepted stance on neutrality of a silent, good boy approach might not, at the end of the day, be what the dangerous world situation demands. There can be little doubt in anybody's mind that the status of neutrality can be very different in today's circumstances from pre-nuclear days. We must ask ourselves, if we adopted a more aggressive approach in bringing pressure to bear on the countries that would eventually wreck the world to rethink their strategies, would we be cast as a positive neutral country which would have far-reaching consequences for the betterment of all mankind?

We should have this positive approach to the whole question of disarmament. In European discussions on the subject matter of the number and placement of nuclear armaments, we would have many fellow travellers from non-aligned countries who would like to have a positive say on those matters. Surely nobody here would want us to dodge our responsibility on discussion on disarmament in the United Nations or, for that matter, on the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. I want to put on record that I am very proud of our stand on neutrality down through the years. My belief is that it was the only commonsense road to take. The world stage is becoming more dangerous and one must remember the old saying that for evil to prevail all that is necessary is for good men to say, or perhaps do, nothing. What about the good, non-aligned, well intentioned states keeping their noses clean in such circumstances? It behoves all of us at this stage, while this is on our minds here, to have another look at the way in which we use neutrality.

We must always be a neutral country, of that there is no doubt. That is what the vast majority of the Irish people want, but the situation must be reviewed. There are many countries around the world that would have a view like ours and we can bring great benefit to many areas and between the Superpowers. I sincerely hope that we can have that type of indepth discussion, devoid of all emotion, to rethink once again this whole question of neutrality. We can have the best of both worlds. One is not going to see a change in our attitude towards neutrality. In my view that would be a wrong course for us to take but it is important to be positive in the future. It is not just enough to sit on the sidelines, be the good boy of the class and not open one's mouth in respect of what happens around the world, saying that it does not concern one. One would attract less flak in so doing, but whether at the end of the day we would be doing what good, well intentioned small countries like ours should be doing we would have to look at.

As far as the members of the permanent Defence Forces are concerned, there are a few things beginning to happen that, while not alarming, would show that there is a huge slow down of infusion of youth into the Army. For obvious reasons, the embargo has led to this in the last couple of years and irrespective of what the Minister said today about a review, if one can believe all one sees and hears from the Taoiseach, I do not think there will be an extra person employed in the Army at any level for the next couple of years. I reckon that the Army are losing numerically at the rate of 50 a month. That would appear to be the actual haemorrhage out of the Army from natural wastage — although I do not like that term — retirement, etc.

If that is allowed to continue for long enough, there will be a serious problem, although not so much because of the actual strength of the Army itself. I am not sure what will emerge from the new in-depth look that the Minister will give. I think that should be done in any organisation of its size. It should be put under the microscope very often to make sure that we are getting good value for money. What would concern me greatly is if there were not a number of young people coming into the Army on a fairly regular basis with new fresh ideas. I know that within Army circles many see this as something which should be rectified very soon.

There are fairly massive cutbacks on the second line reserve, the FCA. Despite what the Minister said, I understand on the ground that the pruning there is quite severe. This is something that we should not allow to happen. We should be proud of the fact that we have a very good reserve force here at good value on a cost-benefit analysis.

The pruning shears hit hardest of all on civil defence. There is a fairly drastic reduction from £1.9 million to £1.7 million. In itself, such a reduction might not make that much difference but in the context of the inflation rate and the general cost of living index the effect is obviously greater. The local authorities will find it extremely difficult to continue with services which were there. If one puts the store that the Minister has — and rightly so — on civil defence, it appears to be a strange decision with regard to something which many people genuinely believe to be value for money. I do not intend to deal in detail with the importance of civil defence, except that there is no doubt that it is a great motivating force at local level to do the kind of thing that one could not pay a permanent Army to do, even if one had the money. When tragedy strikes one cannot do without the kind of local knowledge that cannot be put on a computer. The civil defence organisations deserve better than this. I know that the Minister has a huge problem in balancing the books, but perhaps if a closer look were taken at some of the other areas it might be possible to redress the imbalance.

I notice that the mechanical transport subhead is down from £5.3 million to £3.4 million, about 35 per cent of a reduction. How did the Minister manage to make that type of economy at a time when petrol, fuel and oil for the Army is a colossal sum of £4.5 million, or up 18 per cent? It is no harm that the House should know this. This is at a time when the provision for mechanical transport is down. As well as that, I understand that the cost of maintenance has jumped almost 100 per cent. That leads me to believe that many of the vehicles the Army have at their disposal are old, have outlived their usefulness and that it takes much time, energy and personnel to bring these vehicles up to a reasonable level of maintenance. The figures I have before me indicate that is the case and obviously the Minister will have to take a look at what types of new machinery are needed by the Army.

Another very interesting aspect I noticed when reading through the figures in the Estimate is that road tax for mechanical transport in the Army was £510,000 during 1986 but there is no provision for this in this year's Estimate. Does this mean that the Army lorries will not be taxed? Who will pay the tax? I am sure there is a very sensible answer to that question. One could be forgiven for thinking that if the Army can get away without having to pay road tax for their vehicles so could the TDs but that is another story. I am sure there is sensible answer to this but this is the way I read it.

I compliment the Army bands. They are a credit to the Army and the nation. Wherever they appear they are good for the locality and for the Army. I ask the people concerned in the Department of Defence and in the Army to make the Army bands as available as possible. I know that people, even those in small districts around the country, would be willing to pay for visits from the Army bands and I ask the Minister to continue this.

I have also a bouquet and a rosette for the Army Equitation School. It was important to increase the subhead for the school so as to ensure that Army riders appear and perform better throughout the world at showjumping competitions. They are as good an ambassador for tourism and the horse industry as could be found anywhere. I congratulate the Minister and the Department in ensuring that the necessary funding is made available to the school and I sincerely hope that this funding will continue.

As the Minister of State with special responsibility for civil defence, I would like to add to what the Minister for Defence has said on that subject.

The Minister paid tribute to the volunteers and I must endorse his remarks. Since I assumed responsibility for civil defence, I have come to appreciate the great dedication and enthusiasm of this voluntary and unpaid force. I had, of course, been aware of the existence of the organisation but I must confess that I was not fully appreciative of the commitment which the volunteer gives to training or of the expertise which comes from that training. The very high standard of training in the various services is a measure of the high quality of the instructors who teach the volunteers their skills. The instructors are the product of the civil defence school. I visited the school recently and I was very impressed by their professional approach to training. I invite those Deputies who are interested in civil defence to visit the civil defence school also and I guarantee that they will not be disappointed.

When one gets highly motivated people and trains them well in such useful skills as dealing with casualties, fire-fighting, rescue work and welfare help, those people can be a very useful force in the community. Civil defence has proved its worth time and again in peace-time in all sorts of situations. In recent years these have been as diverse as the Dublin bombings of 1972, the Papal visit in 1979, the Cherryville train crash in 1983, and on New Year's Day this year the gas explosion at Raglan House. By responding to peace-time emergencies, the organisation keep in a constant state of preparedness and practise their training.

Of course, we see also civil defence involved in such things as stewarding and first-aid at athletic and sports meetings and sometimes people criticise this as being totally irrelevant to the nuclear danger. This is unfair criticism. The volunteers learn discipline and team spirit by working together, their being seen at worthwhile events helps to recruit new members and they must be actively involved with their communities if they are to help them in any major emergency.

I have referred to the nuclear danger rather than nuclear war because, as the world realised after Chernobyl, a peace-time accident at a nuclear power station can have disastrous consequences. The invisible clouds of radioactivity which swept across Europe in the days and weeks after Chernobyl brought contamination in the air, on the land, and in food and water. The public came to appreciate for the first time that the nuclear age had brought great dangers other than nuclear war. Many were confused and frightened — both by the contradictory statements of some scientists who had previously said Chernobyl could not happen and by alarmist media reporting, not necessarily in this country.

Out of all this was born an appreciation, however reluctant, that radioactive fall-out is no respecter either of neutrality or nuclear free zones, and out of it came also an expanded role for civil defence. Here in Ireland we were spared the worst effects of Chernobyl but civil defence volunteers did excellent work in collecting samples of milk and vegetables for testing for radioactivity.

We have not been left with uninhabitable lands and villages as in the USSR; we did not have to give our children stable iodine to protect their thyroids, as in Poland; we did not have to destroy large quantities of food as in West Germany. Chernobyl is over 1,000 miles from Ireland. However, we have nuclear stations much nearer, for example, in Britain and in Europe, and we have all the time the continuing threat of Sellafield. The message for us is to be prepared and the draft plan, referred to by the Minister for Defence, in which civil defence has an important role, will give effect to that preparedness.

Coming to the civil defence provision in this Defence Estimate, I must emphasise that, as the civil defence volunteers are unpaid, the organisation give very good value for money. Deputies will be aware that the primary responsibility for the co-ordination of civil defence planning and organisation rests with the Department of Defence and, subject to my overall direction, local authorities are responsible for the recruitment and training of the volunteers, and the development of civil defence measures in their functional areas.

The expenditure of the local authorities is funded generally at 70 per cent from the civil defence provision in the Defence Vote. Putting together this year's specific provision of £1.75 million, with perhaps a further £0.5 million as the local authorities' own expenditure and allowing for Departmental staffing costs, we still spend appreciably less than £1 per head of population on civil defence. For this we get a dedicated, well-trained and equipped force of some 20,000 active volunteers with perhaps as many more available in an emergency because they have been trained but are no longer classed as active. This is good value by any standards.

As I have already said, the civil defence have a major role in peace-time. While our attention may have been diverted by Chernobyl and Sellafield, the nuclear arsenals remain and no effective disarmament has yet been agreed. There are some who say that there will be no surviving the immediate and consequential effects of a nuclear war. I accept that the level of casualties would be appalling but I subscribe to the view of the Department of Defence that it is virtually certain that civil defence measures would save many lives, particularly in the type of situation which is likely to prevail in this country. Against a direct saturation attack on Ireland — surely an unlikely event — protection may be beyond our capability but this is no argument to suggest that we should not have some insurance, such as civil defence provides, against lesser but much more likely hazards. We, in Government, cannot afford to take a negative attitude and ignore the continuing danger of nuclear war. Civil defence is our only insurance against the possibility of such nuclear war and the provision in the Estimates is an indication of the Government's commitment to civil defence preparedness.

I conclude by inviting all Deputies to support civil defence in their constitutencies and local authorities. It is an organisation most worthy of support for the benefits it confers both on those who join and on the community.

Debate adjourned.
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