asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a statement regarding the operation of the Civil Legal Aid Service indicating whether, in his opinion, it provides an adequate system to aid people who cannot afford recourse to the law from their own resources; and if not, if he will make a statement regarding the extensions to the scheme he intends to introduce in 1988 in order that Ireland will fully meet its obligations under the Human Rights Convention.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Legal Aid Service.
56.
The Civil Legal Aid Scheme is administered by the Legal Aid Board, through 12 full time and 19 part time law centres around the country. These include four full-time law centres established during the period 1985 to 1987.
I am aware that the board consider that additional law centres are needed. However, there is no realistic prospect that the additional resources that would be required for any further expansion of services under the scheme can be provided at present due to the critical position of the public finances. The Estimates allocation for 1988 for civil legal aid has no provision for an expansion of services.
I am satisfied that the existing level of services is the most that can be afforded at present, but I hope that further expansion of the scheme will be possible at a future time when financial circumstances permit.
Is the Minister telling the House that from his point of view and that of the Government it is in order and satisfactory that some sections of the country should be served by a legal aid service and some should not, that it is all right if some people who can afford it go to law from their own resources but if they have not got the money to do so the Government wash their hands of them? What is the Government's position so far as their responsibilities under the Human Rights Convention are concerned?
Regarding the State's responsibility in regard to civil legal aid the Human Rights Convention and the decision of the European Court in the Airey case in 1979, the court did not decide that Ireland was in contravention of the convention because a scheme of civil legal aid and advice was not in existence at the time. The court decided that violation of certain articles of the convention had occurred because the applicant did not enjoy an effective right of access to the High Court to seek a particular remedy. Legal aid as such was not the issue and the court had already ruled that there was no direct right to legal aid by virtue of the provisions of the convention. The court indicated that a scheme of legal aid is one way to facilitate effective access to justice, but it is not the only way. Simplification of court procedures and increased jurisdiction for the lower courts are other ways. Ireland opted for a legal aid scheme as being justified in its own right and in respect of which there was already a commitment. I can understand that there is need for an expansion of the service — everybody in this House accepts that — but as of now, having regard to the financial constraints within which we have to operate, there is no possibility in the immediate future of expanding the service.
Does the Minister not agree that it is open to him and to the Government to organise their finances so that people who do not have the resources to avail of the law when they need to do so can be protected as they are entitled to be? Will the Minister agree that it is a disgraceful implication in his reply that he is satisfied that many thousands of people in different areas do not have a service available to them, while other people in other areas have a very poor service available? Does the Minister accept that?
It is the intention of this Government to expand the legal aid services as soon as possible.
The time for dealing with questions has transpired. Perhaps the House would agree to take the remaining question nominated for priority, No. 58.