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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1987

Vol. 375 No. 2

Private Members' Business: National Board for Curriculum and Assessment Bill, 1987: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The last evening I spoke on this Bill I suggested that my party would be supporting the Bill but would be reserving their position in relation to amendments, particularly on definitions, representatives and a number of other matters mostly in relation to section 3. I had said that what was represented in the Minister's hostility to the Bill was a concentration on returning matters of curriculum innovation to the Department of Education officials and specifically to its inspectors. I gave a history of their performance, their ethos and their thinking in education from the sixties to the present. I would not be hopeful of any curriculum reform in the near future given the destruction that is taking place in education which is being presided over by the present Minister. When we spoke the last day, one trade union had pulled out of curriculum consultation and since then another major trade union has pulled out of consultation with the Minister. She will shortly be left talking to herself and to her inspectors. Would that that was the end of the damage. However, it is not the end of the damage and it is almost meaningless for me to put questions to the Minister now.

A year ago I would have asked what would happen to the proposals for implementation in the report on the arts or what would happen to the report on languages? I might have asked what would happen with the new syllabus, what is the position on civics and political studies, what about the whole question of the new additional low cost items that have been suggested by the independent and progressive curriculum board. In the absence of the Minister I will answer the questions myself. Those matters are back with the inspectors again and those proposals are dead. The teachers have withdrawn from curriculum consultation and of course there is a reason for that which is the destruction of the entire character of the educational system. Figures are available in relation to the primary level. The Minister stated that an average class would consist of 30.5 pupils. If that is the case 21,350 pupils will have to be redistributed in classes in the greater Dublin area. These are the figures from the preliminary result of the INTO survey.

It has been stated that in the whole Dublin area there could be 700 fewer teachers teaching in primary schools. There is no point in saying that lower enrolment figures are responsible for the loss of these teachers. The teachers are being driven from the classroom. It is dishonest to say that the disadvantaged will not suffer. Of all the schools in the north Dublin inner city area only three schools will be exempted from losing teachers. It might be part of the Minister's new prim philosophy of education to say that you can take teachers out of the classroom, increase the number of pupils that teachers have to look after and that the disadvantaged will not suffer. The soft target in the over-nine teacher schools, the administrative principals, will now have to cut back on any liaison with parents and with other groups who might want to consult them. That destruction continues.

I am glad Deputy Kitt who has so much experience of vocational committees is in the House. He will be interested to know that there will be 30 job losses in the VEC sector in Galway, 27 in Donegal, ten in Leitrim, 12 in Sligo, six in Sligo town, 21 in North Tipperary, the list goes on mounting up to 896 jobs altogether, 191 of them in the community and comprehensive sector and 705 in the vocational education sector.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but his time is nearly up.

In the provincial paper in Galway there was a report of principals lighting the furnaces to provide heat in the schools. In regard to the third level sector, the reports show that the son or daughter of a professional person has a 24 times greater chance of attending a third level school than an unskilled labourer's son or daughter. In the Minister's speech she demolished proposals for five RTCs, an extension to the College of Art and Design and the NIHE in Tallaght. I am not moved by those who say that we can stop all this erosion at the primary sector by blaming the teachers. The cost of the teachers' pay rise is £7 million and with the clawback on tax at the standard rate it is £4 million. The cuts in education amount to £44 million. This is little less than presiding over the destruction of education and the end of egalitarianism. I support Deputy Hussey's Bill and I have no confidence in the appalling objections to the Bill that have been put forward by the Minister for destruction in education.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking on this Bill. When Deputy Michael D. Higgins speaks of the rigid nature of the Department of Education in the sixties I can only agree with him. He has been very selective in the points he has picked out for criticism and I could be equally selective in welcoming the many changes that have taken place in the Department of Education in the curriculum. The revision of the primary education curriculum in 1970 was a great advance. As a person who was in a teacher training college at that time I saw both sides of the Department in my two years in that college. When I and a number of other students complained about the rigid nature of the programme in my first year I was told there was very little that could be done about it. However, there was a complete rethink when I was in my second year in the training college. A more flexible approach was taken when the new school curriculum was introduced at primary level.

I join with the Members who have congratulated the Minister for Education at the time, Pádraig Faulkner. That was one of the great steps forward. Deputy Michael D. Higgins did not refer to that when he was going through the history of education from the sixties up to the present time. He knows that prior to that the whole concept of free school transport was introduced by the late Donough O'Malley and that helped the people whom he spoke about, the people whom the Department said would be entitled to a limited education only.

I join with Deputy Higgins in paying tribute to previous Ministers who have tried to do something about removing sexism from the text books and from the curriculum. I agree with everything he said in that report but he has not addressed himself to some of the leaps forward in education down through the years.

Deputy Higgins's final remark that we should have a statutory council just because it is going to be hard to abolish it is a bit tongue in cheek and does not deserve much comment from me. Previous Ministers have abolished councils and boards and let us not be holier than thou when talking about that matter.

This Bill introduced by Deputy Hussey is identical with the Bill presented by the previous Minister, Deputy Paddy Cooney, in November 1986. That Bill was published in May 1986. There seems to have been no rush by the last Government to introduce the Bill. The present Minister has stated very clearly that by having a non-statutory body there will be more accountability and a more flexible approach to the curriculum. I can only agree 100 per cent with that. We all know that one does not have to enshrine these advisory functions in legislation; one can have an advisory body advising the Minister and accountable to the Minister on a non-statutory basis. The Minister should be complimented on introducing her plans for this type of advice. There are certain areas we would agree on. The primary functions, I suppose, would be the same in both proposals but one of the proposals would cost a lot of money and we are living in difficult times. Councils and bodies may produce very fine documents, but if there is no money to implement their recommendations, there is no point in having them. I would like to see a council that is flexible, with comprehensive terms of reference, with realistic proposals that could be implemented and that would report directly to the Minister because, at the end of the day, it is the Minister who takes the final responsibility.

And it costs nothing?

I will deal with the costs in a moment if the Deputy will give me an opportunity. The council the Minister has spoken of has talked about the priority of advising the Minister on areas of curriculum reform. This is certainly important. One of the areas that has concerned a lot of Deputies in regard to curriculum reform is the question of the Irish language. The Minister recently announced a review of the primary school curriculum. That is one of the area where there has been concern that the teaching of Irish through the look-and-see method has not been very successful in some cases. The course committees assisting the board will be very important in that regard. I was very glad to hear the Taoiseach announce in Galway at the weekend a project which will receive assistance from the national lottery and which will be of major significance in the teaching of Irish, that is, a major language centre on the campus of UCG which will provide a focal point where students and the public can meet in a Gaeltacht environment. I am delighted that the Taoiseach made that announcement and that funds will be provided from the national lottery for this because we must look at the whole question of how Irish is taught in our schools. The Minister is right in having this review of the primary school curriculum at this time. The review committee will report over an 18 month period and this and the Taoiseach's recent announcement will be very significant in regard to the teaching and learning of Irish.

The Minister might speak a bit more Irish himself; it would help.

The announcement by the Minister about the need for co-ordination and integration of the curriculum is very important. We have at the moment a lot of diverse groups and bodies, the local curriculum development units, the centre at St. Patrick's Training College in Drumcondra, that is, the Educational Research Centre, the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, Trinity College and others that are involved——

That has been abolished.

——in the organisation of curriculum development. The point I would like to make is that there is no coordinating body to ensure that the work of the various organisations is rationalised and streamlined so this announcement is very important.

One cannot co-ordinate what has been abolished. This is daft.

There has been much talk about the question of examinations. The complaints we have heard year after year have been genuine and had nothing to do with the fact that there was a change of Government because there have been delays for many years in getting examination results.

You abolished computerisation.

It has been pointed out that we have very large numbers of students doing the examinations.

Get a computer.

The numbers have increased by 700 per cent over a 15 year period and that means that no matter what is introduced in the way of councils, statutory and non-statutory bodies, there is a problem. As Deputy Hussey said it is a question of computerisation, which is important but it is not fair to drag into this debate the question of whether we have a statutory or non-statutory council.

Deputy Kitt raised the issue.

The Minister has also talked about course committees which are the way forward as regards advice on education. The interim board certainly produced a number of very interesting documents and their work is to be commended. But the committee structure was very elaborate and what we had was the perception that spending more money was the solution to the whole problem. If we were to talk of spending £2 million on examinations alone we would be asked where that money is to come from. As I understand it, the additional costs will be £5 million in addition to the £230,000 which was allocated in the present year and it would be difficult for the Minister to find £2 million.

The recommendations of the interim board were general in nature. It is important now to get more specific information and simplify the advice and recommendations coming forward. In times of financial stringency it is important to look for ways of implementing the recommendations in a simple and straightforward way. Many Deputies have said that the way forward is to maintain the salaries of teachers and of all public servants. That was the subject of a motion distributed in the name of the Progressive Democrats but I do not see that as the solution to the problem. As Deputy Higgins pointed out, if we were to maintain the salaries of primary teachers alone it would cost £7 million gross, and after taking into account deductions for tax, PRSI and so forth the net savings would be £4 million. That is certainly a very small amount. It also raises the question of whether one is going to ask the people in the health services to agree to a wage freeze or people working in some other Departments to do likewise.

Or for a farmer to pay a little tax.

How about politicians?

That situation should not arise. These motions about maintaining pay are put forward in an attempt to destabilise the national recovery plan which had been agreed by people in the trade unions——

It has not as yet been agreed.

It has been negotiated.

It has not been ratified.

Mr. Gerry Quigley, the General Secretary, negotiated it on behalf of the teachers. It is only fair to say that if the particular document leads to industrial peace it should be welcomed by all sides of the House. To come along with a penny pinching statement that the teachers and those in the public service should have their salaries pegged is the wrong attitude. I would prefer to see somebody addressing the question of why it takes something like 26 years for primary teachers to reach their maximum salary. That is something about which I am sure the primary teachers in this House know a great deal. No-one has ever adverted to that fact. It is not true of all people in the public service, but it is certainly true of primary teachers.

The matters which are important to us here are the question of accountability to the Minister and the need for flexibility in this non-statutory body. We have, through the Minister, got the terms of reference that are comprehensive and will be workable and practicable. That is certainly very important. I hope that the Minister's advice will be acted upon and that the terms of reference will be adhered to by that body.

The main purpose of this Bill is to establish on a statutory and, indeed, a permanent basis the National Board for Curriculum and Assessment. This Bill was first introduced in 1986 by Deputy Cooney, the then Minister for Education. I remember very well the general welcome from all sides of the House, particularly from the Opposition side at the time and from the Minister herself who was then spokesperson on Education in Opposition. She looked forward to the time when this board would be established on a permanent and statutory basis. They were so enthusiastic about carrying this out that it was incorporated in the Fianna Fáil manifesto of the February election. Here we are now having our spokesman introducing the Bill again as a Private Members' Bill and having the Minister, who was at that time so enthusiastic about its statutory establishment, speaking very vigorously against that idea. It is just another U-turn, or a head-over-heels somersault. It is not the first and I am sure will not be the last of such from this Government.

In advocating the setting up of the board on a statutory basis, it is useful to have a look at the excellent work done by its predecessor, the interim board that was established by Deputy Hussey in 1984 when she was Minister for Education. I should like to pay tribute to her for setting up the interim board at that time. They have proved themselves during their three years of existence. They have brought out many reports, have done excellent work and started a very important process in education. That tribute goes to the Minister who set it up at that time as a response to the need, perceived in educational circles, that major changes were necessary, both in curricular and assessment procedures in our schools.

Although many changes had occurred in the educational system since the sixties in terms of new subjects, materials, modes of pupil assessment, school organisation and structures, they were not sufficient to meet the demands made on the educational system by developments such as an increasing number of young people within the system, the new technologies, Ireland's active membership of the European Community, increased urbanisation, basic changes in industry, agriculture, business and the professions, changes in patterns of employment and the use of leisure time.

From the time of their establishment the Curriculum and Examinations Board set about examining how the education system should respond to the changing demands on Irish society. I should also like to pay tribute to the chairman and members of the board for the vigour with which they tackled the job in hand and also the members of the various subcommittees who participated and were involved in preparing and publishing so many reports.

The following are just some of the general achievements for the board over the past three years. They have gone a long way towards initiating and sustaining informal discussion on educational issues; they have promoted co-operation between educational institutions, educators and others concerned with the welfare of young people; they have supported the professionalism of teachers by recognising their role in the formulation of new curricular and assessment procedures for primary and second level schools; they have recognised the need to make fuller provision in the educational system for the diversity of needs in students; they have also analysed the examination system and have outlined a new framework for assessment and certification which incorporates the best elements of the existing system while extending the range and methodology of assessment so that more skills can be measured.

A number of major educational principles were recognised by Deputy Hussey when the terms of reference of the board were being drawn up. Among these were that the essence of curriculum development is teacher development. A new, unified assesment for the junior cycle of second level education was needed to replace the present intermediate and group certificate examinations. The aim of this was to ensure that all pupils would have available to them some certification of their achievements on reaching the end of the period of compulsory school attendance. It was stated that such a system should take account of the range of pupil abilities, should aim to involve all teachers as part of their professional work and should be flexible enough to allow schools, if they so wished, to devise alternative programmes that would be recognised by the national assessment system.

The Interim Curriculum and Examinations Board have over the last few years successfully initiated and promoted discussion and research on many educational principles by encouraging fundamental scrutiny and evaluation of the curriculum. Now that the preliminary stage of the board's work is over, it is absolutely inconceivable that the second stage of their work, namely detailed planning on the part of the various course committees of what is to be taught in our schools over the next decade and what assessment procedures are to be introduced, will now be limited because it is the intention of the present Minister for Education only to reconstitute the curriculum board as a non-statutory advisory council for curriculum and assessment. Over the past three years the Curriculum and Examinations Board have published a number of discussion papers and it is to these that I wish for a few minutes to direct my remarks and to the extensive work which has already been carried out by the board.

In their first document issued, Instructors in Education, the Curriculum and Examinations Board put forward a general statement of the aims of education as the basis for policy and action in the short term. They also provided a forum at which the Department of Education, teachers and professional educators could meet with representatives of these social agencies with an interest in education, so that together priorities could be identified and contributions made to the formulation of policy in education. The board also suggested a possible framework for the junior cycle in post primary schools. Recognising the need for a broad junior curriculum they presented the curriculum under eight categories and divided the categories between subjects or courses which would constitute a core curriculum and those which might be offered as additional contributions.

In the board's document, In Our Schools, the notion of a common core curriculum was approached from two essential and complimentary perspectives. The board recommended that the junior cycle curriculum of all schools should involve pupils in each of the following areas of experience: arts and education, guidance and counselling, language and literature, Irish, English and other languages, mathematical studies, physical education, religious education and science and technology while at the same time including the following four key elements of learning: knowledge, concepts, skills and attitudes.

The document recognises that many of the traditional subjects can and do contribute to more than one area of experience and that schools which may not have the resources to offer a large number of subjects or courses may nevertheless provide a wide range of experiences for their pupils by fully exploiting the potential of the subjects they are in a position to offer. This provides a challenge for those involved in syllabus construction. It also provides an administrative basis for co-ordination between different subjects of the curriculum at junior cycle and for continuity between the primary and post primary curriculum.

At senior post primary cycle the Curriculum and Examinations Board, recognising the need for a fundamental assessment of educational policy and provision because of changing social needs and employment trends, highlighted the need for a re-examination of the traditional definitions of and distinctions between general, technical and vocational education. The board have put forward the recommendation that senior cycle policies should be developed so as to promote consistency of approach across the range of courses both within schools and between the formal school system and the various training agencies. The board believe that the senior cycle should build on the achievements of the junior cycle and that the leaving certificate programme should continue to cater for the majority of senior cycle students in schools.

The programme however should be adopted to cater for the increasingly diverse needs of students and should include such areas as new technologies and elements such as social education, work experience and community experience. The transition year from vocational preparation and training courses and other such programmes already relate directly to the perceived needs of students. There is a need therefore to develop a relationship between these programmes and the leaving certificate. New modes of assessment should be examined in order to support and recognise such a relationship, to encourage the further exploitation of the potential of the existing subjects and to give credit for a wider range of student performance and achievements.

The board have not been idle in the very important field, indeed the most important field, of primary education. In November 1984 a primary review committee were established and their aims were to review the existing research on the primary school curriculum, to identify areas for further research and to propose initiatives, to identify problems and propose appropriate strategies for solving them. The review committee included teachers from primary and post primary schools in order to have continuity between the two sectors. The committee put forward many recommendations, the major one being a recognition that there is a need for an overall review of the primary curriculum. This should include a review of curriculum practice and a study of the background and principles underlying the entire primary school curriculum. The committee also recognised the need to eliminate sex stereotyping in schools and to make available adequate resources, including remedial facilities and educational psychological services so that children with learning difficulties could be adequately supported within the system.

Another important area that was examined and investigated by the interim board was the area of examinations and assessments. Educators have believed for many years that the disadvantages of the public examinations system greatly outweigh the advantages. Among the disadvantges generally quoted is that it is not suitable for all students because of its heavy reliance on memorisation. Many also believe that it exerts undue influence on schools, narrowing the scope for curricula and teaching methods. It does not recognise the role teachers should have in an examinations system and that it is usually carried out under artificial conditions in a very limited time frame. Therefore, it is not suitable for all students and can be extremely stressful for some. Any of us who have been associated with pupils undergoing or preparing for examinations or waiting for results are very much aware of the stress, trials and tribulations involved.

The board invited recommendations from all interested parties on what they thought were the necessary components of a relevant examinations system for students. In arriving at their recommendations the board have attempted to lay the foundation of a system of assessment which would overcome the defects of the present system without abandoning its beneficial aspects. It is the board's view that the assessment procedures should be derived from and be complementary to the curriculum. Assessment is thus inextricably bound up with the curriculum. Amongst the detailed recommendations which were made to the Minister on assessment and certification were: that, where feasible and desirable, assessment should be carried out over a period of time rather than be confined to a terminal examination — in other words, something like a continuous assessment, a system similar to those operating in other countries; that where appropriate, part of the assessment for public examinations should be school based; that provision should be made for in-service courses for teachers in assessment techniques; that courses for the award of certificates of general education should be offered up to three levels to be designated as follows: foundation, general and advanced and at each level four attainment grades should be awarded, the lowest being granted for a mere completion of the course.

The present Bill before the House which was introduced by our spokesperson on education, Deputy Hussey, proposes the establishment of the National Board for Curriculum and Assessment on a statutory basis. It is extremely important to have the newly constituted board on a statutory basis as it would give it a permanency and an independence to continue the excellent work which was initiated by its predecessor, as I have outlined. The Minister has already established her own board on a non-statutory basis contary to everything she has said while in Opposition and indeed what was in the Fianna Fáil manifesto.

A special relationship has been established between the Department of Education and the interim Curriculum and Examinations Board. This Bill would formulise the relationship through the requirement that the proposed board would be staffed by personnel from the Department of Education. The composition of the board as laid down in this Bill recognises the important part that teachers, school management and parents have to play in the education system. The knowledge and experience of other agencies will also be utilised through representation from social, economic, cultural and, I am glad to say, Irish language interests. Indeed I am delighted that this is incorporated in both Bills, mar sílim go bhfuil deacrachtaí speisialta i láthair na huaire chomh fada agus a théann múineadh na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht agus taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Tá a fhios againn go léir na deacrachtaí móra atá sa Ghaeltacht le téacsleabhair agus mar sin de. Is maith an rud go bhfuil role le himirt ag an mbord chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé le téacsleabhair, agus tá súil agam nuair a bheidh siad i gceann oibre go ndearcóidh siad isteach sa cheist seo, go ndéanfaidh siad é a scrúdú agus go mbeidh siad ábalta glacadh le moltaí ó mhúinteoirí agus ó dhaoine eile a bhfuil plé acu le oideachas trí Ghaeilge.

In 1986 the Curriculum and Examinations Board proposed that their policy on curriculum and assessment should be introduced in a phased programme over a five-year period. The introduction of the certificate of general education for all junior cycle pupils would be central to this programme. The five-year plan would also involve an examination of primary education. It is our duty as legislators to provide a curriculum that meets the needs of all our young people. The educational system should be responsive to the economic, cultural, social and technological needs of society. In this context a statutory national board for curriculum assessment has an essential role to play.

The time is ripe for curriculum change. The need is there, the ideas are there. Schools and teachers are in general receptive to and willing to implement curriculum innovation. It is no longer sufficient simply to identify and consider at a distance the various points that need to be gone into in considering curriculum reform. The necessary support both in terms of structure and resources must now be made available to enable the willingness which is there to be put to use. The proposed statutory national board for curriculum and assessment can provide a more representative and responsive structure for administering the national educational system while facilitating and promoting innovation within the system.

In conclusion, I believe this Bill gives the Minister an ideal opportunity of leaving a lasting impression on the educational process. She can do that by supporting the concept of this Bill, giving the board independence and a permanent status and allowing them to continue the excellent work that was carried out by the interim board. At present I am afraid the Minister is seen as one who has inflicted a number of severe body blows to the educational system, particularly in primary education and in the vocational and comprehensive sector of post-primary education. She is seen as the Minister who has reversed the process of lowering over the years the pupil-teacher ratio and now we are back to where we were in the early seventies in that regard. Does the Minister want to be remembered as the person who carried out these drastic decisions or will she not grasp the opportunity for establishing the board on a permanent statutory basis and thus be remembered by future generations as the person who accomplished and achieved this? If she does, then future generations of Irish people will be forever greatful to her.

Unfortunately, as matters stand at the moment we seem to be heading for the position where we will have neither a statutory nor a non-statutory curriculum and examinations board. There are new developments every day with teachers' unions and others withdrawing their consent and willingness, as Deputy Higgins said, to serve on the new board. It looks as if the Minister's actions and policies will leave us with no board whatsoever in spite of all the promises made in Opposition and all the undertakings given regarding education. They have all been forgotten and ignored and at present the whole teaching profession, the entire educational establishment, is in a deep state of severe shock. It seems to be the order of the day to disestablish and abolish every statutory independent board as, for example, An Foras Forbartha, the National Social Service Board and others.

We are anxious to have the National Curriculum and Examinations Board on a statutory basis so that the Government cannot abolish them at will at any time in the future if they do not agree with that board's recommendations. If the board come out with some report that is not entirely to the Government's liking the Government can abolish them if they are not on a statutory basis. That is the chief reason I believe this Private Members' Bill that has been introduced by our spokesperson deserves the support of the entire House.

I congratulate the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, for her wise and well-reasoned decision to reconstitute the ad hoc Curriculum and Examinations Board as a curriculum council. I congratulate also the honorary and executive personnel of the ad hoc board and I acknowledge the value of the work they have done since they were set up. They have produced very fine studies and excellent publications and made noteworthy recommendations. It is to be regretted that all of their work, all of the distilled wisdom of so many education experts, and all of the fine recommendations have not been acted upon either by Deputy Hussey in her time as Minister or by her successor in that office during the lifetime of the Coalition.

Let me give one example of how the Coalition partners treated the findings of the Curriculum and Examinations Board. The ad hoc board in their first published document set out an eight-fold framework for the establishment of a sound curriculum in the post-primary sector. One of the eight basic essential components of that framework was guidance counselling. This was to have been the first casualty in the Coalition plan to prune the education system. It fell on Deputy O'Rourke on coming into office as Minister for Education to reverse that decision. Her action in ensuring the continuance of the guidance council's service was welcomed by parent representational bodies, teachers' unions and industrial interests. It was proof positive that the Curriculum and Examinations Board had got it right and that the Coalition Government by turning away from the basic elements in education had shown that as far as they were concerned the Curriculum and Examinations Board were little more than political window-dressing.

The excellent persons who comprised this board and have acted on their subcommittees, their chairperson and chief executive worked with the utmost dedication and enthusiasm. They did not derive their dynamism from the status of the board. In my view they would have worked with the same zeal and to the same good effect whether they were designated statutory or non-statutory. The Bill, because of the similarity between what is proposed and the Minister's proposed council, is in effect a major exercise in labelling. With apologies to William Shakespeare, let me quote from "Romeo and Juliet" to put the issue in its true perspective: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Let us be clear about this and what the Minister's proposal entials.

The reconstituted council will be free from the shackles and inherent inflexibility of statutory status and will have the same chairperson, vice-chairperson and chief executive. The council will have the same primary functions as those laid before the House in this Private Members' Bill. They will have the same functions and the same untrammelled flexibility that will enable them to revise their operations and their modus operandi, thus being enabled to pursue specific goals in an organisational framework that they can at all times accommodate to their circumstances. This is extremely important.

Section 9 of the Bill sets up a most complicated committee structure with lines of command and communication going hither and thither in intricate confusion. The experts assure me it is a system that finds no favour in communication or management theory or practice. To perpetrate such confusion in a statutory instrument would be a grave mistake.

Instead of this convoluted spider's web the Minister opts for good old plain simplicity, fewer and shorter lines of communication and a built-in capacity for fast responses. For the very weakness of section 9 alone this Bill must be rejected. Perhaps the architects of this Bill, conscious of its serious limitations, had a death wish for it even as it was being drafted. It contains a very definite sudden death mechanism. I refer the House to section 4 of the First Schedule which provides that the chairperson and every ordinary member of the board may be removed from office by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister. It could be that in framing this Bill its mentors had the less than worthy intention that a sudden death clause such as this would act as a virtual sword of Damocles and, because of its statutory status, be a perpetual threat to the members of the board if they failed to toe the line. There is a deep insidious contradiction between this clause and the expectation of independence and permanence which the notion of a statutory board is meant to convey to the public at large and which is being dishonestly touted as the difference between this Bill and the Minister's more practical, more flexible and eminently more straightforward council for curriculum.

Section 8 of the Bill makes reference to designated bodies but does not name them. The Bill makes no reference to other bodies which were formerly listed as ones with which the board should work in close association. In omitting reference to them in the Bill the error of demoting them to minor importance made by the former Minister, Deputy Hussey, is compounded.

This Bill is insensitive and lacks the fine tuning which a good Bill should have. These organisations which were originally relegated to a minor role are now totally ignored. They contain within their ranks many of the foremost experts in particular areas of education and their ability to contribute to the general aim of curriculum reform is beyond question. The Minister's council for curriculum do not fall into this trap. The flexibility which the council allow should enable all bodies and experts nominated by them to play an equal role with the council.

With further reference to the designated bodies, I was glad to note that the Council for the Status of Women and the Employment Equality Agency were nominated. I am disappointed to find that in the text of this Bill only the masculine gender is used. Does the Bill assume that the chairperson and the ordinary members of the board will be men?

I have noted with regret in recent days that some important representative bodies have withdrawn their support for the council. However, I am confident that when wiser counsels prevail and the heat of the moment is dissipated we will see these people return to the council. It is as members of this flexible, task-orientated council that they will be best able to serve the interests of the entire teaching profession and guide and initiate the sort of changes which will be to the benefit of teachers and students alike. Leaving the council would be a very high price to pay as a gesture of dissatisfaction and I would urge them to reconsider.

In the current climate of financial constraints it is essential that all proposals should be costed in full. A board which feel obliged to tackle a mountain of tasks simultaneously, as did the Curriculum and Examinations Board, would need an army of specialists to keep track of costs. The expectations raised by the public relations exercise has been noted very sharply in the educational field. Everyone is touched by education, either personally or through family. All want the very best and want it at once. This is, of course, unreal and causes discontentment and disappointment. The council as proposed by the Minister would work to specific goals and thus enable costing to be an integral part of the process. The final result would be based on reality and attainability. In these circumstances we would get a series of practical projects for evolution and change rather than pipe dreams which are light years away from fruition.

I am delighted that the new examination to replace the intermediate certificate is to be an immediate task of the council. It will get a result in a short time which will be implemented without delay. That is the beauty of the council. It is task-orientated with a short timescale.

I would argue that even if the Minister's infinitely better proposal to establish a council was not available at this time, the Bill should be set aside. In early 1988 an OECD survey team, in collaboration with an Irish team at present at work, will carry out a review of the Irish education system. When such a team came here in 1965 and the report Investment in Education was published it had a profound and far-reaching effect on education thinking and planning. It is likely that the forthcoming review will give a new thrust and a new impetus to curriculum planning and areas of education directly related to it. The council for curriculum will have the necessary attributes to meet this challenge, unshackled by formal statute.

A number of preliminary points have to be made in relation to education before dealing with the Bill before us. The present Fianna Fáil Government and the occupant of the position of Minister for Education have betrayed not only the State's commitment to developing and expanding educational opportunites for young people but have betrayed commitments made prior to the election, during the election campaign and since then. The Fianna Fáil election manifesto stated they would seek to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, initially at primary level and then progressing to the post-primary system. I do not think anyone could argue that the programme of cutbacks being implemented can lead to a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio. The reverse is the case. There will be a massive increase in the pupil-teacher ratio.

The Minister is on record at Question Time as making it clear that despite the massive increase in class sizes there will be no provision for the appointment of additional remedial teachers who will obviously be needed. All we will get, we are told, is a redeployment of remedial teachers from some classes into other classes or even from some schools to other schools. On 8 April 1987 the Minister stated in the Dáil that she had no doubt Members of the House would agree that the primary focus of any Education Department must be on the first level. There is no doubt this is what we have got — the cuts in education have been carried out much more deeply at primary than at other levels.

We were told by the Minister on 16 June this year that this Government would continue to regard primary education as an area of special priority. We all know at this point what was meant by those words. The priority is a priority for cuts, priority for increasing class sizes and disimproving the opportunities which our children will have in the educational system. The effects will be quite startling, particularly at primary level. Almost evey school will lose a teacher. Schools with 11 teachers or more will lose two teachers. Schools with more than 20 teachers may lose as many as four. School classes will rise to over 40 and over 50 in some cases. Children may be switched into large multiple classes and pupils with reading or mathematics problems will get less attention in these very large classes. It is expected that more than 800 teachers will lose their jobs at primary level.

When we were told that priority would be given to primary education we expected it would be priority in terms of improving the situation, improving the pupil-teacher ratio and the buildings in which our children are taught. The reverse is to be the case. In saying that, and in being critical of the Government, we must also point out that the priorities of the Fine Gael and Progressive Democrats are extremely weird. From those parties we have had calls for a wage freeze in the public sector in order to pay for the maintenance of our education system. Deputies have already given an indication of the type of relationship there is between the money which teachers will get as a result of the 2½ per cent increase and the cuts proposed by the Minister. The figure for teachers, net of deductions such as income tax and so on, will amount to about £4 million but the education cuts run to a figure in the region of 44 million. There is no relationship between what might be saved by applying a wage freeze to the salaries of teachers and the maintenance of our education system.

It is nonsensical to argue that if the public sector workers as a body had agreed to a wage freeze that therefore the Government would be able to maintain our education system. In the first place I regard it as a disagrace that such a bargaining proposition should be suggested, that our education system should be subject to that type of bargaining. It is improper to argue with the PAYE sector who carry more than 90 per cent of the burden for our education, social welfare and health systems that if they do not agree to a wage freeze they, and their children, will be deprived of proper education health care and social welfare systems. It is an immoral approach to politics and to the running of the economy of the State.

I support in principle the idea of a statutory curriculum board. It is far more important to have a legislative basis for such a board so as to ensure that to some extent it cannot be dissolved at the stroke of a pen by a Minister. We have had examples recently of boards established by the House being done away with. We discussed one of them, the Dublin Transportation Authority, at Question Time today. That body was abolished by the Minister who intends to introduce legislation to give legislative effect to his decision. The fact that a Minister would have to come to the House to disestablish a board would be an important restraint on him or her, whether it is the present Minister or some future holder of that office.

While I support the Bill in principle I must point out that there are serious deficiencies in it. It is not my intention to support it unless I get certain commitments from the proposers of the Bill that my amendments will be accepted on Committee Stage, if the House agrees to Second Stage. In my view the proposed board should have a majority of educationalists involved. The teachers' organisations should have the right to nominate their representatives to the board and we should not have a Minister plucking out at will the names of people whom he or she may believe to be the person best qualified. It is essential that the parents' organisations have a right to nominate people to represent them on the board. Such amendments are important and should be made to the Bill. The power given to the Minister in the Fine Gael Bill is too sweeping and is not much better than the proposals put by the Minister.

There is no doubt that there is a need for curriculum reform in Irish schools. The type of curriculum reform I envisage is unlikely to take place under a Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael Minister for Education although there may be a marginally more progressive approach from the Fine Gael side. I have a very strong feeling against the notion that our schools should be simply for the maintenance of what are called traditional values. Unfortunately, we saw the effects of the traditional values on our society in Enniskillen on Sunday. I am not saying that our teachers or our education system creates people who will go out and deliberately engage in acts such as that which took place in Enniskillen on Sunday but the underlying concepts, the whole framework under which our children are taught at school is what I am concerned about. I have children attending school and I am aware of what they are being taught. The underlying philosophy is one which does not necessarily give the children a broader view of life. It does not necessarily give the view that those other sections of the community on the island have a right to their point of view or to give their allegiance to another State if that is their wish and tradition.

The idea of maintaining traditional values, as Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Progressive Democrats spokespersons have expressed, is not right. Perhaps they do not recognise the implications of what they are saying but the events of the last two weeks on this island should give us cause to pause and think of the type of curriculum our schools have, what is being taught in our schools and the concepts and philosophy which underly what is being taught in our schools.

The education system in Ireland, North and South, is dominated by the churches. There is almost total control of primary education by the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland and the Jewish congregation. They have the right to hire and fire teachers at will. The second level school system is dominated to a similar extent except in the VECs which are more democratically controlled and more answerable to the public. Unfortunately, in giving the churches the right to run these schools, in giving them the right to hire and fire our teachers, in giving them the right to virtually decided the shape and content of our curriculum, we are as democratically elected Members of this House giving up our democratic right to do that job whether it is through a curriculum board or otherwise. Of course, there is no guarantee that even if we had democratic structures, democratic control or if we had the independence that VECs and comperhensive schools enjoy, the philosophy and concepts I have spoken of would change. Clearly we have the same kind of education in those schools also.

There is a need for a fundamental review of what we are teaching in our schools. For that reason there should be a statutory board which is not liable to the dictates of the Minister at any given time. The teachers and parents should have the right to nominate their representatives to that board because whatever chance there is of such a board being independent of the Government there is very little chance that a board appointed solely by the Minister would necessarily have the clout or the courage to go against the Minister of the day and to make tough decisions in relation to what has to be done in education.

I am withholding support until I hear the response of the Fine Gael Party in relation to the shape of the Bill. If there are commitments that the type of amendments I am talking about will be accepted and implemented on Committee Stage, we will support the Bill. If not, we will not support it. I urge the Fine Gael spokespersons to apply themselves to the points I have made. It is difficult to deal with education in a broad way in a short speech. It must also be said that the previous Coalition Government introduced fairly severe cutbacks in education and it is difficult, therefore, to think of education in a progressive way and about having progressive improvements in the system of education when parents and teachers are thinking mainly about simply preserving or trying to hold on to what they have.

In the middle sixties there was a great expansion in education, not because there was a sudden awakening to the value of education for children but because the economic demands of the time called for a more able, technically-trained and articulate workforce than had been available up to that time. I clearly recollect that when I was leaving the primary school in the early fifties, the vast majority of my school mates finished education at that time. When I went on the the VEC — the tech as it was called then — I was one among very few who went on. That changed in the middle sixties and there was a massive increase in the numbers attending second level education, the VECs and secondary schools. Indeed, the Fianna Fáil Minister for Education at that time is to be congratulated for his policies.

It is not because children need less academic or technical qualifications that the cutbacks are being implemented. They need them even more given that 30,000 to 40,000 of them have had to leave the State every year for the past four or five years to try to find work abroad. There is not the same demand here any more for this well-educated workforce. There has been a decline in our manufacturing industry and in the numbers at work and what worries me about education and the way it is developing is the growing influence of industry and business in the shaping of our curriculum. I am not for a minute arguing that there should not be an influence in that direction.

It is pointless producing young people who are not able to work in the commercial arena in which they find themselves when they leave school. However, there is a worrying trend that we will return to a simple three Rs approach to education — reading, writing and arithmetic — and that we will not try to develop the wider capacities of our children to be aware of the world around them, of how they can change it and to be aware that the world is not either work or unemployment, that there are other aspects to life. For that reason, it is important to have a review of our curriculum and of how we assess the achievement of our students. It is important that any such curriculum review should be done in the context not only of the needs of industry or business but also the needs of the children to live full and fulfilling lives. There is a need to ensure that the ideas we are imparting in their minds in schools do not lead them to the kind of atrocities that occurred on this island over the past two weeks.

Deputy De Rossa touched in a very sincere way on something we need on this island, the linkage between education — particularly in children's formative years — and reality. As he said, if we really wanted to illustrate to ourselves and to those who listen to us in this House the need for a curriculum review on a continuous basis you really need not look any further than the barbarism of this weekend. To the extent that education contributed to that barbarism, the curriculum which had been allowed to get out of touch with reality contributed to it. The point is well made that a curriculum board is needed.

Deputy De Rossa took a sideward swipe at church-based institutions in education which has become a fashionable thing to do. It is not relevant to the Bill or indeed to reality to throw to one side all that has been done by church-based institutions over all the years.

Does the Deputy agree it is relevant to the curriculum?

I accept that there is some relevance to the curriculum but I do not accept the validity of the Deputy's points or the direction of his comments.

I read an interview with a Provisional IRA spokesman in Belfast who clearly said that without Catholic schools in Northern Ireland their cause would have died many years ago.

That may be so but I do not pay as much heed to Provisional IRA spokesmen as the Deputy evidently does. The need for a curriculum board and for changes in this area in education are fairly self-evident and have been made by previous speakers but they bear reiteration here. We have seen in education, particularly in the post-primary sector, a veritable explosion of knowledge in recent years. We have also seen an explosion of people moving into second level schools. For example, in 25 years there has been an expansion of people taking the leaving certificate, from something considerably under 10,000 to in excess of 55,000. Changes of that order place an obvious strain on an examination and curriculum system.

It is obvious, in view of the explosion of knowledge, that a change is necessary in this area. When we are talking about the explosion of knowledge I should make the point that nowhere is the need for continuous curriculum reform and development more obvious than in the area of new information technology which puts a strain on anyone in the educational system. Knowledge has been developing there at a great pace in the last five or ten years to the extent that people in the education system for only a few short years find that their knowledge has rapidly become defunct that therefore there is a continuous challenge in education to keep the young people abreast of developments. I welcome changes in this direction. They are necessary.

We should remind ourselves of the history of this legislation. In 1984 Deputy Hussey as Minister for Education introduced the interim board and I congratulated her at that time as I felt that it was a very worth-while change of direction, a very worth-while innovation. The legislation we have before us was prepared by Deputy Hussey when she was in the Department during the 1985-86 period. This legislation was left on the stocks, on the files in the Department of Education for another Fine Gael Minister. It is not just differences from this side of the House that should be reflected here. There were clearly differences of opinion between the regime under Deputy Hussey in the Department of Education and the new regime under Deputy Cooney. Deputy Cooney, as Minister for Education had some profound difficulties with this legislation as it was drafted in the Department, and as a consequence of that it was put on the back boiler. Obviously Deputy Hussey believed in the Bill when she left it in the Department, even though the Minister for Education who followed her did not and she is now trying in this motion to reintroduce what she had proposed at that time.

There are problems with this proposal at this time. The Minister had already given a clear indication that she was reconstituting the interim board as a curriculum council. The Minister had already abolished the interim board and had established a new council. The Minister's actions in this regard were not precipitated simply by the arrival of this Bill on the Order Paper. They were signalled well in advance. I suggest that the debate here has a certain artificiality about it because the Minister had already indicated the directions she was taking in this regard. It strikes me that this is opportunistic at this time. However, my personal views on it are not as relevant as the clearly objective problems in the proposal before us.

The first major problem is that there is no built in accountability in these proposals. There is no direct control by the Minister in these proposals. This is a fundemental flaw. We have created problems with statutory bodies which have been elevated to the point where they are not controllable. The removal of certain areas of public administration from the direct ambit of the Minister is a positive thing but it is a problem when one takes that positive move and removes the body one creates from direct controllability. That is carrying a good thing a little too far. Here we are creating a body which effectively is removed from direct control and from direct democratic answerability. That is a major problem.

(Interruptions.)

If one looks at the structures put up by the Minister, there are ways of achieving what is suggested short of this statutory monster. We have created statutory monsters. I would instance the situation with An Bord Pleanála. The idea of statutorily removing an area of public administration from specific day to day——

(Interruptions.)

That is because Fianna Fáil corrupted An Bord Pleanála——

That is a farce of a suggestion. I happen to live in a town where we live with the blight of the last Coalition Minister imposing developments on the community and the community are not the better of it.

(Interruptions.)

The point I am making——

An Foras Forbartha is hardly a statutory monster.

(Interruptions.)

We will debate An Foras Forbartha another day. The point I am making here and the Deputies on the far side know it, because Deputies privately and publicly have illustrated their problem with these statutory monsters, is that——

Why did you welcome it?

——when one gives a statutory body total and absolute autonomy and removes it from direct answerability one creates a problem in that the democratic will of the people which is represented in this House cannot be brought to bear on such statutory bodies.

Why did you welcome it? Answer the question.

The Minister's actions indicate precisely her thinking in this matter.

Will you answer the question?

What we have set up will have the same effect.

Why did you not give it statutory effect?

(Interruptions.)

A further point about the statutory nature of this Bill is that the Minister's proposals can achieve what is intended by this Bill without creating this artificial dichotomy, this removal of the statutory body from the area of control by this House. The Minister's proposals have made this clear. The Minister has made it clear in what she has said in this House and in public that her desire is to create a situation where we have the positive benefits of an independent board and at the same time we have public answerability. Public answerability is important.

There is a further problem with this proposal and that is financial. These proposals mean that the board will inevitably be involved in finance. It would be wrong that a non-democratically answerable body would be in a position to commit funds or resources without being answerable to this House.

You have not read the Bill.

That would be a gross——

You have not read the Bill.

Give me some credit.

Deputy Hussey will have to allow Deputy Roche to make his own speech.

He is making a terrible idiot of himself.

I will not allow a tête-á-tête on the legislation. Deputy Roche without interruption, please.

Another weakness in Deputy Hussey's proposals is the problem with the structure of the board proposed here. It strikes me that it is not at all representative. That is a weakness. I am surprised at that, because when Deputy Hussey was in office she made quite a few speeches about the importance of representation. I do not want to boil cabbage that has been well boiled before, but if we go back to the interim board one sees the weakness in that the proposals would allow the Minister of the day to absolutely dominate the board with ministerial appointees. That is a wrong move. If one compares the Minister's proposals which are before this House with the proposals in this Bill one will see that the Minister is allowing for one nominee in her proposals whereas the proposals before the House——

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but I would ask him to move the Adjournment.

Debate adjourned.
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