I have received an indication of Private Notice Question from a number of Deputies, including Deputies Spring, Taylor, Desmond O'Malley, Harney and Sean Barrett, all dealing with the same subject matter. I now call on the Deputies to put their questions, in the order in which they submitted them to my office.
Private Notice Questions. - Arms Search by Security Forces.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a full statement regarding the massive Army and Garda operation begun in the early hours of 23 November; if he will, in particular, give the reason there was an apparent elapse of several weeks between the time that information about shipments of arms became available and the initiation of a search; the full extent of the resources being used; and if he will give a full outline of the material being sought.
asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the grave national emergency in relation to the reported stockpiling of huge quantities of arms, ammunition and explosives, he will, as a matter of urgency, outline the steps, if any, he proposes to take to prevent a recurrence of the reported importation of four shiploads of arms; the reliability of the intelligence on which the present searches are based; the nature and quantities of the arms and ammunition believed to be imported; and the way in which his announcement of the searches was intended to contribute to their effectiveness.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will make an urgent statement on the threat to the security of the State which occasioned the initiation yesterday of a nationwide search by the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces.
As I informed the House during the debate on security matters on 10 November, there are reasons for believing that four separate cargoes of arms and ammunition may have been landed here by the Provisional IRA during 1985 and 1986. There are indications that the combined tonnage of the four cargoes may have exceeded that on board the Eksund. It is the professional judgment of the Garda Síochána who have evaluated the intelligence in this case that it is sufficient to warrant the actions being taken. In those circumstances there is a most serious obligation on the Government to make every effort to establish whether those arms were, in fact, landed and to find them, if indeed they are here.
Accordingly, early yesterday morning the Garda, supported by the Army, commenced the most comprehensive search ever mounted by the security forces of the State. The search is being particularly concentrated in the counties close to the Border, but major searches are in progress throughout the rest of the country also.
There is no justification for any suggestion that there was unnecessary delay in getting this search under way. Intelligence relating to matters of this nature has to be evaluated carefully before action is decided on and extensive searches such as the one currently under way are major logistical exercises which, of their nature, require detailed planning if they are to be thorough and effective. This is so particularly when two separate branches of the security forces are involved.
I am not in a position to give complete details of the material being sought. The intelligence that is available suggests that it is similar to that carried on board the Eksund.
It was considered appropriate that the public should be told as fully as possible what was happening once the security forces had taken up their positions and had commenced the search. This was done to allay any fear or alarm that such a large scale operation might cause, to bring home to the public the seriousness of the threat and to enlist their help in the search. I believe that it is unreasonable to suggest that this operation could, in any event, have remained secret for any length of time.
The prevention of the importation of such munitions by subversives in the future is being given serious consideration in consultation with the security forces.
In view of the widespread public concern, if not in fact the public bewilderment, at this operation may I ask the Minister first if he can clarify why there was a public announcement made especially in view of the fact that the Minister had sought a news blackout from the press media? Secondly, in view of the Minister's ordering, which I assume he did, of this operation to take place, can he tell us if he has information as to where the cargoes came from and if he will now divulge that information to this House which is the proper place to make such information known? Thirdly, will the Minister confirm that the weapons which were found in January of this year did originate in Libya? If that information is correct, will the Minister clarify, what is the Government's position in relation to Libya?
I have already dealt with the first part of the Deputy's question which is in relation to the announcement which was made. Let me further add to what I have already said. I did not seek, nor did anybody seek on my behalf, a press news blackout and reports to that effect are incorrect. With regard to the second part of the Deputy's question as to whether I have information as to where the cargos came from, I have information which suggests that the cargos on the four boats were loaded at sea. I have no information as to where at sea the four boats were loaded.
Which sea?
I do not have that information.
You know well it was Libya.
What is the third part of the Deputy's question?
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
The origin of the arms which were found in Sligo and Wales in January of this year.
The arms which were found in Sligo were either of East German, Romanian or Russian origin. Twenty boxes of ammunition were found, 19 of the boxes were unmarked and one box had Libyan markings on it.
In view of the statement in the Minister's reply that the arms which are now being sought, and which he believes were imported here over the past two years, are similar to those found on the Eksund could the Minister tell us how he comes to the conclusion that they are not necessarily of Libyan origin when by common consent those on the Eksund are of Libyan origin?
I did not say in reply to Deputy Spring's supplementary question anything about the origin of the particular cargo other than that I did not know where it originated. I did say specifically to Deputy Spring that it is suggested from intelligence which is available to us that the cargos of the four boats in question were loaded at sea and until such time as further intelligence is available to us as to where they came from I am not in a position to help the Deputy.
Is the Minister not aware that the various intelligence services of different countries appear to be agreed that this ship was loaded either in a Libyan port or very close to a Libyan port? In the light of the continuous support given by the head of the Libyan state for the Provisional IRA, does the Minister not think, given the itinerary of the ship concerned, that one could be as certain as one could ever be in these circumstances that the arms were supplied by Libya for the purpose of causing devastation on this island and what steps do the Government propose taking in regard to our relations with Libya in the light of that?
I want to say that I must rely on information which is given to me by our intelligence forces.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I also want to say to the Deputy that I have already in reply to Deputy Spring made it very clear that the two ships which were supposed to have got through in 1985 and the two in 1986 were loaded at sea.
Which sea?
From Libyan sources.
I have information from the intelligence sources on that and I say that for a third time. Perhaps, if the Deputies asking the questions have information they feel should be passed on for analysis and if they let us know their sources we might do it for them.
Will the Minister not agree that the media endeavoured to behave in a responsible way and that the only compliment they got for doing so was a slap in the face from the Minister with his dramatic announcement yesterday morning?
Mischievous.
Every time we ask you a simple question it is supposed to be mischievous.
(Interruptions.)
Let us have the question, please.
Forewarning is mischievous, too.
Could the Minister tell us whether anything was found yesterday and could he also tell us what further evidence he has other than what I mentioned in this House two weeks ago as to the other cargoes of similar arms, ammunition and explosives which may have been landed here in the past? Would he not agree seeing that this was mentioned by me in this House over two weeks ago, that it is extraordinary that it took him two weeks to take any action?
I totally reject the insinuations in the Deputy's questions. I have clearly said that after very careful analysis by the security forces of the information which was available to them, then and only then, was the plan drawn up to carry out the search which is at present under way. There was no delay whatsoever but very careful planning had to go into the organisation of this search. In regard to the insinuation made by Deputy Barrett in relation to the newspapers, I can only say that this operation was planned with the greatest secrecy and that there were not leaks about it nor was any request made to the newspapers to hold off, as has been suggested. In regard to what the Garda may have found, we are in day two of a very big search. When the search has been conducted then and only then will I ask the Garda to let us know what they have found and I think that is a reasonable position to take.
Are they not keeping you informed?
I would like to ask the Minister two questions. In view of his statement that he sought no news blackout, would the Minister not agree that prudence in carrying out an operation of this nature would require him to have a news blackout and to advance the search to the maximum possible extent before this hit the news media, thereby tipping off people who might be able to move around the very material which the security forces are looking for? Would the Minister not agree that he was detracting very much from the capability of the security forces in taking away the element of surprise which in most military establishments is regarded as of crucial importance but is not so, apparently, to this Minister? Secondly, when he says with some degree of confidence that he is relying on our own intelligence services for his information about the Libyan involvement — which is fine as far as it goes — will he not agree that it is standard practice in the field of intelligence to seek information from all intelligence that is available from friendly countries who may have means of surveillance by satellite or otherwise? Has he done that? Does he intend to do it? If not, why not?
Let me deal with the two supplementaries raised by the Deputy. Of course, he should know that our security forces work in the closest co-operation with all other security forces and we hope that will continue and they will be able to help one another.
A Deputy
Do you work with the Libyans?
With regard to the first part of the question, the Deputy should know that the security forces agree that this search would benefit considerably if the public knew and were aware of what was going on and it was with their approval — I stress that — that the announcement was made at the time it was made.
In view of the Minister's statement of approval by the Garda and the fact that he did not ask for a blackout, why did a number of senior gardaí ask newspapers and RTE not to publicise this matter when they became aware of it on Sunday and made inquiries from the Garda?
I understand that nobody was empowered by the organisers of this operation to ask the newspapers for the blackout Deputy O'Malley suggests they were asked for. I was in my office very late on Sunday evening when a leading correspondent of one of the national dailies rang my office to find out what, if anything, was going on because quite a number of cars were seen outside my office late on Sunday night.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Seán Barrett.
Is the Minister aware that one senior Garda officer said that his actions deprived the Garda Síochána and Army search of its main strength, the element of surprise? In case people think I am causing trouble, that is quoted in The Irish Times today. Would the Minister not think that if there is such a threat to the security of the State the present Taoiseach had an obligation to brief the leaders of the Opposition parties before such a massive search took place? In line with the action of the Government in relation to many matters, everything is done outside this House as distinct from inside it. Would the Minister not agree that when the Taoiseach was in Opposition he complained bitterly any time a statement of any description was made outside this House that he felt concerned him?
I reject the use by Deputy Barrett of the unnamed Garda spokesman of senior rank. I say to the Deputy that if such a person exists, it would be best for him to deal with his own superior officer who would let him know the position.
I am now proceeding to deal with the Order of Business.
A Cheann Comhairle——
If Deputy Taylor wishes to raise something on the Order of Business he may do so later.
(Interruptions.)