It is proposed to take No. 9. It is also proposed that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. It is further proposed that in the debate on the Social Welfare Bill, 1989, the speech of the main spokesperson nominated by each of the groups, as defined in Standing Order 89 (1) (a), shall not exceed 45 minutes and the speech of any other Member shall not exceed 30 minutes. Private Members' Business shall be No. 34.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal for the late sitting today agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with the Social Welfare Bill agreed?
I oppose the arrangements for the discussion of the Social Welfare Bill. I do not agree with the arrangement of time for the main speakers.
I am putting the question: "That the proposal in relation to dealing with the Social Welfare Bill be agreed".
Question put and agreed to.
On the Order of Business there is a matter I should like to raise with you, Sir. I tabled a question to the Taoiseach which should have been taken today and you disallowed it. You disallowed it originally on the basis that the question contained argument. I responded to that, pointing out that my question was intended to elicit information, that it made no arguments and no allegation.
Deputy Dukes——
Sir, I wish to say one thing to you — because I believe this is the only place I can say it to you and, if you will allow me, I will say it to you firmly and briefly but without acrimony. You caused your private secretary to communicate with me yesterday to point out that the Taoiseach is not officially responsible to Dáil Éireann for these affairs and, that as far as you were aware, my question had no factual basis. In reply to that I pointed out that the Taoiseach has a general responsibility to the Dáil for the conduct of the business of the Government and that is what we are talking about.
Deputy Dukes, I have given you some latitude. Normally a decision of the Chair is not challenged in this fashion. I have written three letters to the Deputy on the subject. I have nothing to add to them.
I want to put the basis of your decision on the record of the House. I am not asking you, Sir, to add anything——
The Deputy will have ample opportunity of dealing with this matter on the debate which will take place in the House this week.
On a point of order, Sir, I contend that, in your final reply to me, you have departed from what we have all in this House accepted to be the custom and practice of the House in relation to questions. I hope, Sir, you will permit me to point that out.
I do not accept that, Deputy, but I am not going to enter into argument with the Deputy now.
Well, it is my contention, Sir——
I am not going to enter into argument with the Deputy now.
It is my contention that an executive officer suggested——
The Deputy is challenging my ruling in this matter.
——that I should supply you with evidence that there was a factual basis to my question——
If Deputy Dukes seriously thinks that the Chair is in error here——
——and then you told me that one of your senior officials had been assured by an official of the Department of the Taoiseach that there was no factual basis to my question. I am not interested in what officials say to one another. I am not interested as to whether your officials, Sir, formed that view or not——
The inference there is something I repudiate.
I submit to you. Sir, that you are now in danger of creating a precedent under which it is solely up to you to decide whether or not questions should be pursued in this House; that it is solely up to you to decide whether there is any factual basis for the question. If I had evidence of anything, Sir, I would not be putting down a question in the House.
Please, Deputy Dukes——
I am now informing you, Sir, that I intend to have this matter in relation to precedents and the propriety of conduct brought up and fully discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Very well, Deputy, you are most welcome to do so. I have written three letters to you in respect of this matter——
And you changed your ground in each reply.
——and I have nothing further to add to them today. I issued a similar communication to Deputy McDowell in relation to a similar request.
With respect, Sir, as far as I know you have not asked any Deputy in this House to provide factual evidence as the basis for a question. In doing so, Sir, you are exceeding what we have all in this House believed to be the proper duty of the Ceann Comhairle.
I have acted in accordance with normal custom and precedents and I stand over that.
It is not an appropriate response to a question by a Member of this House to say that a senior official of your office was assured by his counterpart in the Department of the Taoiseach——
Deputy Dukes, for your information, that is normal procedure.
A Cheann Comhairle, when I put a question down in this House, or when any of my colleagues on this side of the House do so, we do not want to know what assurances are given by officials.
The Deputy must desist. I have not departed from normal procedure in this matter.
Rather do we want to know what the Taoiseach has to say in response to them.
A Cheann Comhairle, you graciously engaged in correspondence with me in relation to a similar matter. Arising out of that correspondence and your remarks to Deputy Dukes now, I must register my deep discontent with the state of affairs which then arose, which was that when I sought to have this matter dealt with at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, that committee adjourned without considering it a matter of importance. Therefore I was left with no remedy. I must associate myself with what Deputy Dukes has put to you today, that it is most improper, in my view, that two officials of the public service should ascertain among each other questions of fact——
I will not allow my rulings to be canvassed in this fashion in this House.
——and that when Deputies of this House who put down questions——
Please, Deputy McDowell.
requiring information are told that, among public servants, is has been decided that there is no factual basis for their questions.
Deputy McDowell, please resume your seat.
I suggest that is most irregular and flies in the face of parliamentary democracy in this House.
I must ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
A Cheann Comhairle, may I seek your guidance in respect of the debate proposed for Thursday next. If that debate takes place will it be the intention of the Chair to apply the terms of Standing Orders 33 and 51 in the period of four months and six months respectively after that debate because that would have the effect of preventing any discussion of the matters that might be discussed in a fairly peripheral way on Thursday next being discussed again, or of any questions being asked in relation to it for a period of four months, which would be highly unsatisfactory given the way this whole matter has developed and, I am quite certain, is likely to continue to develop in the weeks ahead?
I have no clear information at this stage, Deputy, as to how that debate on Thursday is to proceed.
I do not think any of us yet has a clear indication of how it will proceed. I am asking what will be its consequences in terms of Standing Orders 33 and 51. I think it would be very unwise for the House to agree——
I accept the Deputy's point.
——to have that debate muzzled for six months on matters of great importance which are only slowly coming to light but which will be inexorably and gradually exposed.
The question is rather hypothetical but I will have it examined.
It will not be hypothetical after Thursday.
With your permission, Sir, I should like to raise on the Adjournment the continuous downgrading of Tralee General Hospital over the past two years with particular reference to the recent closure of a surgical and medical ward with a consequent loss of 60 long stay beds.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
(Limerick East): Does the Taoiseach agree with the recent statement of his Minister for Finance that the worst is not yet over for our economy?
This is not the time for such a question, Deputy.
(Limerick East): Are we to expect something looming ahead?
Not unless we get a Coalition Government back in.
(Interruptions.)
(Limerick East): Was that the prediction?
(Interruptions.)
May I ask the Taoiseach or the Minister for the Environment if it is the intention of the Government to allow time in this House for a statement or a short debate arising out of the weekend conference on atmospheric pollution?
Deputy Keating should raise that in another way.
I was simply asking if the Minister for the Environment would make a statement on the matter.
The Deputy should put down a question on that matter.
A Cheann Comhairle, may I again raise with you the question of a replacement ferry service between Cork and Swansea this tourist season and ask that the matter be discussed on the Adjournment?
I will communicate with the Deputy.
With your permission. Sir, may I raise on the Adjournment the present position in relation to the lack of preparation for the introduction of the junior certificate course in second level schools next September?
I will communicate with the Deputy.
May I raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of my Private Notice Question in relation to the industrial relations dispute in Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, Crumlin?
I will communicate with the Deputy.
As you disallowed my Private Notice Question — and I do not want to raise that with you as an issue on the grounds that it was not an urgent matter — may I ask if it is the intention of the Minister for Justice to make a statement to the House in relation to funds missing from his Department and what investigation is being conducted?
That is not in order now, Deputy. The Deputy will have ample time to deal with that matter in another way.
It is a matter of some public concern and I would have expected the Minister to be anxious to allay public worries about it.
That is not in order now, Deputy.
With your permission, Sir, I should like to raise on the Adjournment the question of the 10,000 tenants of Dublin Corporation living in housing squalor and the 2,000 tenants of Dublin Corporation who still do not have the basic facility of a bathroom, a subject I have been raising for some time past.
I will communicate with the Deputy.
With your permission. Sir, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the matter of an incident in the Irish Sea last Sunday night when a Belgian trawler disappeared, allegedly pulled under by a submarine.
I will communicate with the Deputy.