Estimates, 1989. - Vote 25: Environment ( Revised Estimate ). – Dáil Éireann (26th Dáil) – Tuesday, 18 Jul 1989

Estimates, 1989. - Vote 25: Environment ( Revised Estimate ).

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Flynn)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £577,619,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1989, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Environment, including grants to Local Authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing, and miscellaneous schemes, subsidies and grants including certain grants-in-aid.

Tugann an díospóireacht seo deis dúinn Meastachán mo Roinne i mbliana a phlé. Is iad príomhghnéithe an chaiteachais ná an méadú sna soláthair le haghaidh séirbhísí a fhaigheann maoin ón gComhphobal Eorpach agus le haghaidh séirbhísí bhaineann leis an gcomhshaoil.

The revised Environment Estimate before the House is for over £577 million — a substantial sum having regard to the continuing large Exchequer borrowing requirement. This year, the Estimate is dominated by two major expenditure areas, namely increased funding for works qualifying for assistance under the EC Structural Funds and increased provision for expenditure on environmental matters.

Expenditure by my Department and local authorities in 1989 will amount to some £1,288 million. This is a very large amount of expenditure representing about 6 per cent of GNP. Local authorities' own receipts will amount to over £566 million in respect of commercial rates and for the provision of various goods and services.

A notable feature of this year's Estimate is the additional funding arising from the national development plan for EC Structural Funds. The first objective of the plan is to remedy the severe structural deficiencies in the Irish economy which restrict our economic efficiency and competitiveness. My Department have primary responsibility for two of the operational programmes aimed at meeting this objective — roads and sanitary services — accounting for nearly a quarter of total ERDF-aided expenditure proposed in the plan. As a first step, expenditure in 1989 on these two services is being increased by more than 25 per cent compared to last year's outturn, and this high level of expenditure will be maintained so that we can meet the challenges of 1992.

I submitted a detailed operational programme for roads to the EC Commission in support of the roads element in the national plan in March 1989. Over the period of the plan, the Government intend to undertake a major road development programme involving Exchequer expenditure of £755 million on the improvement of national roads and the access routes to our principal ports and airports and £230 million on non-national roads. When account is taken of State grants for road maintenance and local authority expenditure financed from their own resources, overall roads expenditure in the period 1989-1993 should reach £1.8 billion.

Work on the new programme is now well underway. The provision for road improvements in 1989 is £164 million which represents an increase of one-third in real terms over the 1988 provision. Of this sum, £113 million will be spent on the improvement of national roads. Seven of the schemes scheduled to start this year have already started while work will start on the remaining five schemes by September.

I also expect to obtain private funding through toll franchises. On 21 March last, my Department issued an invitation to private interests to consider further toll based investment in the Dublin Ring Road, and we received four proposals in response. These are being examined in the Department and I am confident that we will be able to conclude a satisfactory investment agreement.

Within the overall provisions for road improvement and maintenance, I have allocated £61.1 million to local authorities for works on non-national roads. These grants include £47.4 million which has been allocated to county councils in discretionary grants for regional and county roads. This compares with £33.4 million in 1988. The Government recognise that these roads are of importance for all aspects of rural development, including tourism, especially agri-tourism, industry, agriculture and forestry. It is in recognition of this fact that the Government agreed, at my initiative, to a three year programme costing £150 million for works on regional and county roads.

The Estimates provide £40,000 to meet the general expenses of the National Roads Authority in 1989. I intend to have a Bill to establish the authority on a statutory basis brought before the House in the autumn.

Since taking office, I have given environmental matters a high priority. This year's Estimates include new environmental measures and provide for additional expenditure on existing schemes. I arranged in the Estimates to include all environmental expenditure in one subhead for ease of reference and also to demonstrate that there is a commitment to provide funds specifically for environmental matters. Deputies will see that the Estimate for Subhead G is £5.469 million as against slightly over £1 million last year. This provision is, of course, additional to existing major programmes such as sanitary services which have an important environmental dimension.

The smoke problem in Dublin is the most serious recurring environmental problem facing the capital. We must solve it. The 1989 Estimate for smoke control measures is £1 million. It will fund the grant scheme introduced when the first special control area order was confirmed for Ballyfermot. Dublin Corporation have submitted for confirmation further orders for other parts of Ballyfermot while Dublin County Council have submitted an order for Neilstown. An oral hearing has recently been held into the second order for Ballyfermot and I understand that both Dublin authorities are at an advanced stage in preparing further orders.

I arranged a major publicity campaign on radio and television last winter to encourage the voluntary use of non-polluting fuels and I intend that a similar campaign will be continued next winter. I want to pay tribute to those local community organisations which have campaigned for a voluntary switch over to smokeless fuels in their own localities. Such initiatives are commendable.

My Department continue to conduct a campaign to promote the wider use and availability of unleaded petrol in the interests of public health and a cleaner environment. The oil companies and the motor trade are playing their part in expanding the network of outlets retailing unleaded petrol.

The further excise duty concession in the 1989 budget enables unleaded petrol to retail at 5 pence less per gallon than the top grades of leaded petrol. The number of outlets for unleaded now stands at over 500 compared to 36 when the campaign was officially launched last October. Sales of unleaded at the end of May were 5 per cent of total petrol sales and I expect this percentage to continue to increase.

One of the significant environmental expenditure areas this year is the new programme of environmental works to improve our major beaches on which £500,000 will be spent. I have allocated grants for 21 beaches and examples of works being carried out are the provision of car parking facilities and beach access, beach conservation works, and the provision of picnic areas.

I am providing £450,000 in the Estimate for waste disposal services. Included in this amount is a sum of £250,000 to provide a major boost to waste recycling which is an important element of waste management. Grants are available for recycling facilities provided by local authorities, local voluntary bodies and other interests.

Ireland has ratified the Montreal Protocol which came into force on 1 January 1989 and provides for a 50 per cent reduction over 1986 levels of CFC use by 1 July 1998. However, that target is now seen as inadequate in the light of recent scientific evidence. The EC Council of Ministers agreed in March — on a proposal which I put forward — that there should be an 85 per cent reduction in CFC production and use as soon as possible with a view to the total elimination of these substances by the end of the century. The new Community policy will be influential in the review of the Montreal Protocol provisions which is due to be completed by early next year.

Officials of my Department have held discussions with industry representatives with a view to getting voluntary agreement on reducing CFC use in Ireland as quickly as possible and I will be bringing forward proposals to go further in this direction as soon as possible.

The Local Government (Water Pollution) (Amendment) Bill, 1989, which has passed all Stages in the Seanad, forms a key element in the Government's programme to combat water pollution and will, I hope, be restored shortly to the Dáil Order Paper. The Bill will substantially increase the penalties for polluters and strengthen the powers of local authorities, fishery boards and indeed the ordinary citizen to deal with water pollution.

The farm surveys carried out in 1988 by multi-disciplinary task forces in each county proved very successful both in identifying farms posing a pollution risk and in increasing co-operation between local authority, fishery board and farm development services staff. Some months ago, I asked each local authority to consider the need for further farm surveys in 1989 and I intend that this type of activity will be continued and intensified. In this regard, it is discouraging to note that, while there was a dramatic drop in fish kills in 1988 compared to 1987, the number of incidents is again on the increase. This shows the need for continuing attention to this problem. Farmers generally have played their part in the fight against pollution and many have availed of the grants scheme operated by the Department of Agriculture and Food to install facilities to prevent pollution.

Mr. Farrelly

They are still waiting for it.

Mr. Flynn

The urban renewal scheme, which is designed to attract and encourage private investment in selected locations, has had considerable success in many of the 15 centres already designated. Since 1986, the scheme has generated redevelopment work to a total value of some £220 million with £20 million of this representing work completed, £80 million work in progress and £120 million work at planning stage. I intend to build on this achievement by finalising shortly an extension of urban renewal designation to eight new provincial towns as well as to further areas in Dublin.

A greater development interest from the private sector could be generated by a selective upgrading of the urban environment by the local authorities concerned. I have, therefore, allocated a sum of £2 million in 1989 for expenditure by local authorities in designated areas on works to upgrade the general environment and to complement and provide linkages with private sector development already generated. This amount will be supplemented by contributions from local authorities' own resources and possibly from private developers. Preliminary notification of grant allocations has now been given to nearly all of the local authorities concerned.

In the area of planning, the main initiatives over the past year relate to legislation for planning compensation and derelict sites. I will not delay on these subjects now as Bills on both subject matters have been discussed already in the House and as I hope to have both Bills restored to the Order Paper at an early date.

Output in the construction industry is dependent on domestic economic activity and is a valid indicator of trends and the state of the economy. I am happy to see that for the first time since 1981, overall output for the industry is forecast to increase by over 6 per cent in 1989 and this will result in an additional 3,000 jobs.

This resurgence in the industry's fortunes is linked with the Government's successful management of the economy. Along with improving the Exchequer finances, the Government have also introduced specific measures to promote the regeneration of the industry through astute use of public incentives in areas where development would not otherwise have taken off. In particular, I refer to the Custom House Docks development project, the urban renewal scheme and the section 23 type incentives for the provision of private rented residential accommodation.

The result is a noticeable increase in new housing output, in commercial/retail development and in major refurbishment work — much of it on sites that have lain dormant for many years. Favourable trends which emerged in 1988 are accelerating in 1989 with cement sales up by perhaps 15 per cent, and registrations under the house building guarantee scheme up 45 per cent for the first six months of this year.

Competition in the home market in recent times has encouraged the industry to pursue overseas markets for services, contracting and products. This has benefited export trade and will help to prepare the industry for the internal market. The importance of being aware of EC developments cannot be stressed enough. The various proposals coming from Europe for building standards and products, and the realities of trading in such a vast market, are just two aspects of the 1992 challenge. The construction industry must be ready to compete in Europe and to face increased competition on the home market if it is to prosper in the new climate.

Deputies are well aware of the changed circumstances of the local authority housing programme. Since 1980, over 47,000 new local authority dwellings have been provided at a total capital cost of almost £1,300 million. In the same period over 83,000 first time lettings were made. The numbers of approved applicants have been reduced by over 40 per cent since 1982 with waiting periods almost halved. Contrary to some claims, the housing needs position continued to improve in 1988 with a further fall in the numbers on the approved waiting lists. Approximately 7,200 households were housed by local authorities last year and the number of approved applicants on waiting lists at end 1988 was down to under 17,700.

The 1989 provision for local authority housing construction is £21 million which will allow approximately 900 new local authority dwellings to be completed and a similar number of new "starts". I expect this level of new work, together with vacancies becoming available for reletting from the existing housing stock, to yield about 4,500 new lettings during 1989.

I am providing £15 million this year in respect of remedial works. This is an increase of two-thirds on the 1988 outturn and represents a significant commitment by Government to upgrading older and substandard local authority housing. This year's allocation to Dublin Corporation is being increased by almost 100 per cent to £4.4 million and represents 29 per cent of the total allocation. In all, the programme will cover works in some 80 housing estates countrywide.

In November 1988 my Department issued comprehensive guidelines to housing authorities on the operation of the provisions of the Housing Act, 1988 regarding homeless persons. I have asked the housing authorities to adopt a flexible and sympathetic approach in implementing their new powers which came into effect from 1 January this year. My Department will recoup 80 per cent of reasonable payments incurred by housing authorities in securing accommodation for homeless persons other than in their own rented stock and I have provided £0.5 million for this purpose in the 1989 Estimates.

The Environment Estimate covers a very wide span of activities, which I could not hope to cover in the limited time available. However, I am satisfied that public awareness is increasing on the importance of the various departmental functions whether they relate to physical infrastructural programmes or environmental matters such as the quality of our waters, air, etc. The Estimate before the House will enable my Department to carry out their functions and responsibilities in an efficient and effective manner this year and to develop and improve further the services provided to the public.

Cé go gcaithfimid smacht a choinneáil ar chaiteachas an Stáit, táim sásta gur chuir an Rialtas go leor airgid ar fáil chun séirbhísí na Roinne a choimeád i mbliana. Mar sin, molaim an Measteachán seo don Teach.

Mr. Shatter

At the outset, may I congratulate Deputy Flynn on his reappointment as Minister for the Environment? It is rumoured around the House, although we have to wait to see what will happen, that he is to be joined in that Department by Deputy Harney as junior Minister. I hope the Minister will not be put out by my congratulating her on her appointment, if the rumour is correct. I may not get an opportunity to so congratulate her after today. I also wish Deputy Connolly well in whatever reshuffle is taking place and trust he will get a position he will be happy with. He has always been an extremely co-operative and helpful junior Minister and I wish him well.

The congratulations I am offering the Minister, however, are somewhat qualified. I hope the environmental rainbow coalition which apparently we are going to have in the Department of the Environment will prove more effective in tackling our many urgent environmental problems than Deputy Flynn was during the past two and a half years. The programme for Government agreed between the coalition parties, the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats, is instructive not only for an insight into what action the new Government have in mind but also as a public confirmation of the appalling failure of the previous Government, when Deputy Flynn was Minister for the Environment, to tackle with urgency a variety of important environmental issues.

When one pulls back the veil of the daily public relations hand-out which emerged from the Department of the Environment it is clear that little of substance was achieved during the past two and a half years at the initiative of that Department. It is the fear of Members on this side of the House that this will remain the position under this new Administration. In particular in the areas of environmental and pollution matters, the record of the previous Government was one of appalling ineptitude and neglect. Fianna Fáil abolished An Foras Forbartha but they have now recognised their mistake in this area and have agreed with the Progressive Democrats to establish an independent environmental agency similar to the one Fine Gael proposed in their environmental programme published shortly after the general election campaign commenced. I acknowledge with thanks former Deputy Geraldine O'Kennedy's acknowledgement of Fine Gael's contribution to this joint Government programme.

When will this environmental agency be established? It was not referred to by the Minister in his speech. Is he a reluctant supporter of this environmental agency? Will we see it this year? Will we see it next year? Will it have a statutory base or will it simply be a non-statutory creature of the Department of the Environment? In what way will it differ from An Foras Forbartha? In what way will its independence be guaranteed, or is it a shibboleth, a bit like other parts of the agreement which we saw unravelling earlier today when the Minister for Justice appeared to know nothing about promises given on family courts and when the Taoiseach knew nothing about reform of the solicitors' legislation? If Deputy Harney is to be the new junior Minister in this Department she may have some battles to fight to ensure that her side of the deal which was done to form this coalition Government is actually implemented as opposed to being merely a written commitment which is tossed around and debated in this House for two or three years without seeing the light of day.

The new junior Minister, be it Deputy Harney or somebody else, is being given according to the programme for Government special responsibility for pollution matters. The Minister has made much of his concern and worries about pollution, be it water or air pollution, but his performance in these areas during the past two and a half years was less than effective. Without amending the Water Pollution Act, 1977, Fianna Fáil effectively abolished the Water Pollution Advisory Council by failing to reappoint members to it when the life of the former council expired prior to the change of Government in 1987.

In January of this year the Minister published a seriously defective Water Pollution Bill. While he expresses worries about pollution, we have seen more fish kills in the first seven months of this year than during the entire last year. While the Minister dithers, our rivers and lakes continue to be polluted. I want to know from him if the Water Pollution Bill is to be published in exactly the same form as the original Bill put before this House before the last Dáil collapsed and an election was called. Is the Water Pollution Advisory Council to be revived or will the independent environmental agency that this programme envisages take over the job of the Water Pollution Advisory Council?

The Minister referred to the smog problems in Dublin. I now predict that Dublin will again be choked by smog this coming winter because in reality nothing has happened in the Minister's Department for some months in tackling this area. Last autumn Fine Gael offered support to the Minister to amend the Air Pollution Act to enable him to make an order to the effect that the entire city and county of Dublin would become a smoke control zone. The Minister did not bring forward any new legislation. Even the first designated smoke control zone covering 800 houses in Ballyfermot is not operating properly. The Minister has extended until September next his order bringing it into force.

The Minister cannot make up his mind about the full burning fire. He cannot make up his mind whether it should be included as an appropriate means of reducing smog despite the fact that a report has now been produced which makes it very clear that the full burning fire may be part of the problem rather than a solution to the problem. The Minister has totally failed to confront the problem of smog in Dublin and there is nothing in his speech this evening which indicates a more active approach. Those suffering from respiratory problems and asthma and the elderly will again suffer illnesses next year and some may die due to the Minister's failure to adopt a dynamic approach and to take the necessary urgent action.

Last October we had a new Planning Bill published which at that time I described more as a developer's or speculator's charter than as a protection for the community. Meanwhile, Dublin County Council have had to pay out over £2 million to Grange Developments and are now at risk of having to pay a similar sum to another developer who is making a similar claim.

In the meantime there are reports, which have not yet been confirmed in this House, that there is a Garda investigation into a planning bribes scandal involving An Bord Pleanála, a member or members of at least one local authority and, I am advised, possibly a Member of this House. I want the Minister to explain to this House what steps have been taken to date in this investigation. Is it still ongoing? Which local authority are involved? Are An Bord Pleanála or any of their personnel, past or present, under investigation? Is any elected representative of either a local authority or of this House under investigation or being interviewed? I want the Minister to clarify what is happening as regards the reported investigation into an alleged bribes scandal affecting our whole planning process. A cloud now hangs over our planning system. Its integrity is at risk. The Minister should tell us what stage the investigation has reached and when it will be completed. He should indicate whether at this moment a prosecution or prosecutions are contemplated.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will agree that he ought not to refer to matters which may be regarded as sub judice.

Mr. Shatter

To date, there is no court proceeding of any nature of which I am aware. If all the rumours are untrue, the Minister has an obligation to Members of this House, to those employed by An Bord Pleanála and to the members of local authorities who may be under suspicion, to tell the House that the rumours are untrue, that no such investigation is taking place and that there is no cause for concern. He should clarify the matter. I shall say no more than that. It is appropriate that this matter be clarified for Members of this House before we adjourn for the summer recess.

The Minister also should tell us when we shall have a proper planning Bill. Will the Bill be the same as that brought before the House before the election? Will it be a new Bill incorporating the various amendments the Minister circulated as a result of criticisms of the previous Bill made by Members of this House? How soon will we have it? The longer the Minister delays, the more compensation claims of an unjustified nature will be made and the greater will be the sum of money that the general public will have to meet through the Exchequer to pay these speculators. If the Minister intends to recirculate the old Bill together with the amendments he circulated previously, I would suggest that he consider the establishment of a special committee of this House in September to process Committee Stage of the Bill and to ensure that the necessary amendments are fully and properly made, so that the Bill can complete its passage through the House by October next. If the Minister intends to do that, the necessary resolution will have to be passed in this House before Thursday evening and he will have full co-operation from this side if he does so. If he does not intend to do so, he has an obligation to explain his reasons for not doing so.

The Minister says there is no problem in the area of housing. There are approximately 20,000 people currently approved on the housing waiting lists for local authority houses, as opposed to the position in December 1988. The Minister confirms that there will be in the region of 750 new local authority dwellings built this year. That does not sound like an attempt to solve a problem. The figures given by the Minister today are not accurate. Certainly, they are not accurate in so far as they predict how many people will be housed by local authorities. Even on the Minister's predictions, a substantial number of those currently on the housing waiting lists will be there this time next year and this time two years.

The Minister makes no reference to local government restructuring and financing. He told this House over two years that he was considering the position and that we would have proposals. The only proposal we now have is for a Dáil or Oireachtas Committee as part of the Government programme. When will the motion come before this House to establish that committee? Is this a serious attempt to reform local government or merely a proposal to paper over the cracks that exist within the Fianna Fáil Party — some Members of whom favour the reintroduction of rates and some oppose it and the Progressive Democrats oppose that reintroduction also. Is this merely a diplomatic exercise or will it be a serious committee?

There are many other issues that I would like to have raised but there is not time to deal with them in detail — such as the ongoing pollution of the Irish Sea and the need to take a major initiative in this country with regard to the use of CFCs. I put the House on notice that if the Minister will not bring forward a Bill to abolish the use of CFCs within the next few months, such a Bill will be brought forward by the Fine Gael Party.

We proposed during the course of the last Dáil that it should be possible in Estimates debates to vary moneys and transfer them either within Estimates or from one Estimate to another. That proposal was rejected by this House on two occasions. We shall be voting against this Estimate this evening. We are doing so because of the appalling record of this Minister in tackling the problems of pollution, of planning compensation, of dereliction and a whole series of other failures in the area of the environment. We are putting down a marker that we do not believe that this Minister and this Government are up to tackling these problems. We are putting down a marker as to our serious intent for the Minister and for whoever happens to be appointed as his junior Minister, that we in the Fine Gael Party take very seriously the need to protect the environment and that we will monitor very closely and carefully the performance of this Government and will seek to ensure that those parts of the Government programme that we support are implemented and are not merely a public relations exercise to enable the coalition parties to form a Government.

Mr. Quinn

I would like to start by congratulating the new coalition Minister for the Environment on his appointment. I sincerely hope that his performance in this reincarnation as a coalition Minister will be remarkably better than his lamentable record as Minister for the Environment for the last two years. It is appropriate that I should refer to the fact that the coalition programme, of which I presume he is aware, certainly in more detail than is the Taoiseach, proposes to re-establish one of the offices that he abolished, indicating at least a Damascus turning point, if not a complete conversion. I am referring to the decision of the Government to establish an office for the environment under the control of a separate Minister of State and also some kind of environmental protection agency. I use my words advisedly because we have absolutely no information as to what that agency might do.

In view of the fact that almost a week has elapsed since this Government were appointed, it is clear that they have not the slightest idea of what they are going to do. If they had, the Estimates speech being prepared for the Minister could have been rewritten and we would at least have had some reference in it to the provision of moneys in the course of this year. This Estimate and the voting exercise in which we will be engaged tonight are already redundant in that the Minister and the Government — if they are to be true to their word — will have to bring in a substantially revised Estimate between now and the end of the year.

In relation to the environmental protection agency and the purported role of a Minister of State with responsibility for environmental affairs, the Minister will not be taken seriously by the Labour Party unless an order is made by Cabinet transferring legal responsibility to that Minister of State conferring the legal power and autonomy to do the things for which he or she will have responsibility. Therefore, the credibility of the Government programme, in so far as it relates to the role of the Minister of State, will be subject to the acid test of the transfer of effective powers. Can anybody think of the work done by the other Departments set up just over two and a half years ago? Their list of achievements is not very long. I refer to science and technology and An Bord Glas and how they were supposed to help in the growing of vegetables. Little or nothing happened because the senior Minister refused to transfer effective power to the junior Minister. There was no subhead under the control of junior Ministers who did not have effective control of their own budgets. The same fate will befall any junior Minister who takes on this task and it will be in a much higher profile area.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy is an ungenerous man.

Mr. Quinn

Unfortunately, as I have had experience in this area, I am pointing out a minefield of which the future incumbent should be aware. It is my duty to do so and I hope she is listening carefully to what I said.

The Minister will have to move much more effectively in regard to smog in Dublin. I share Deputy Shatter's view that it is hard to envisage it in weather like this but there will be a massive smog crisis in our capital city next winter unless radical changes are proposed and implemented by the Minister. The proposals to date from the Department of the Environment in relation to the experimental area in Ballyfermot are totally inadequate. We should not be taken by surprise by smog and during the summer the Minister should take on board the proposals made by the Labour Party and others to deal with the problem.

The Minister appears to suggest in his Estimates speech that there is no housing crisis and that local authorities have enough money on the capital programme side to meet housing demand. I do not know what world the Minister is living in, perhaps he is suffering from the same lack of communication which the Taoiseach had in relation to health cuts. I would hate to think that the Minister would find himself on a radio programme in a couple of years' time, facing the electorate, being forced to admit — like the Taoiseach — that he did not realise the situation was so bad. There are over 20,000 people on the approved housing waiting list and it has now become increasingly difficult for many people to get on to this list because of a bureaucratic cutback by the local authorities to artificially reduce the numbers so that the extent of the housing crisis is distorted.

Dublin Corporation, who have the largest single population of any local authority outside Dublin county and whose housing need is perhaps more acute, have no plans to build houses anywhere at present, the first time this has happened since the early twenties. They are currently, on the direction of the Department of the Environment, disposing of land previously acquired for housing purposes. If the Minister for the Environment and his backbench colleagues are not aware of the fact that there is a housing crisis, I am now formally telling them.

The Minister referred to what he is doing about roads and said that the operational programme submitted to Brussels would dramatically increase the amount of money that could — or may be — available for the roads programme. He also referred to the National Roads Authority. However, the only effective and concrete proposal set out in the pre-coalition Fianna Fáil Government manifesto in 1987 was for the establishment of a National Roads Authority. It is significant that of all the legislation, some aborted, some incomplete and some, such as the Local Government (Multi-Storey Buildings) Act on the Statute Book but which cannot be operated, the legislation for the National Roads Authority never got past first base. We will be a long time waiting for it partly because the Minister cannot effectively resolve the problems in his own Department and with local authorities on the drafting of the legislation. The Minister has had over two years to draft it. Legislation was introduced in other areas which was not relevant or needed and which was badly drafted. However, the Minister said this legislation will be introduced in the autumn.

Much of the finance for infrastructure which is necessary for our economy to function competitively in terms of 1992 cannot be put properly in place unless the National Roads Authority are firmly established in law. The Minister should be criticised for his total failure to date to advance that legislation. The Labour Party support the idea of a National Roads Authority but know full well that in their present limbo status, the Authority are powerless to deal with a single local authority, let alone the Department.

I will not go into the question of EC Structural Funds because it is hard to reconcile the figures in the public capital programme and the current account Estimates with the figures in the Minister's speech. It is difficult to see from where the 25 per cent increase will come unless the Minister is making presumptions in regard to private sector investment. If that is the case they are nothing more than presumptions and we can only hope that the Minister will be successful in attracting finance into these areas. As far back as 25 January in a written parliamentary reply to me, the Minister identified four areas that might be attractive for private sector investment. According to the Minister's speech, proposals were received on 31 March this year and are still being evaluated. It is totally misleading to suggest that private sector funds will transform our roads network. That is an illusion to create the impression that there are large volumes of private sector funds in the economy for toll road development. The Minister knows that is not the case.

Mr. Flynn

There are funds.

Mr. Quinn

The Minister will have to come back to this House some time in the future to indicate that the situation is as I predicted. In the meantime he is misleading the House in a political sense by creating the impression that the massive capital programme needed for roads will be solved by an EC hand out or private sector investment. That is not the case and the Department and those in the construction industry generally will confirm that to the Minister.

The Minister has consistently refused to introduce regulations which would enable a tenant in private rented accommodation to get a receipt for rent. If a person buys a bar of chocolate in a supermarket he gets a receipt. A receipt is necessary so that a person can show he has paid rent if he is looking for a rent allowance. In some cases people cannot get such an allowance in private flats because they cannot prove to the community welfare officer that they are paying rent. The reason given by the Minister is that he does not want to upset the private sector interests who are investing in housing and who might be put off if they were obliged as landlords to give receipts for rent.

I should like to point out to the Minister that the massive inducements he has given for private sector investment in the construction industry are not being matched by a response from local authorities in regard to the administration of their planning departments. The delays in An Bord Pleanála will be compounded by the Estimate because it shows a reduction in the amount of cash being made available this year to that body.

The Minister, and his colleagues in the new Coalition Government, are referring to the various incentives and inducements they are giving from taxpayers' money for private sector investment but the services which are essential to oversee and implement those developments are being reduced. The result is that there are unacceptable delays and bottlenecks. At the end of the day the weak and vulnerable sections in our society will suffer. When one takes the capital and current side of the Estimate into account and looks at what is happening in areas where there is a need for urban renewal and effective maintenance — I am not referring to a figure of £4 million which the Minister is providing — one will see that there is not the right focus or set of priorities in it. The Labour Party consider that the amount of money allocated is inadequate and the internal allocation of the money unacceptable.

Mr. Gilmore

I should like to join in the words of congratulation to Deputy Flynn on his appointment as Minister for the Environment. Like the previous speakers, I look forward to an improved performance during his occupancy of the Custom House. I should like to congratulate the Minister on his speech, a remarkable one in that not once in the many pages he delivered did he mention that the Estimate showed a cut in environmental spending of 6 per cent in money terms and 9 per cent in real terms. The Minister did mention that the Estimate represents 6 per cent of GNP but he did not tell us that last year the Estimate for the Department of the Environment represented 7.7 per cent of GNP or that in the previous year it represented 10.5 per cent of GNP. At this rate I am afraid that the environment will have to protect itself.

The Estimate shows just how shallow are some of the commitments in the programme for government which was circulated last week. That programme, and the Minister's speech, are strong on concern for the environment in much the same way as we have become accustomed to politicians expressing concern for the Irish language. The new Ministry for Environmental Protection is welcome but is it going to be anything more than a sop to a perceived new electoral pressure in much the same way as the now defunct Ministries of women's affairs and youth were responses to what was then seen as the flavour of the month?

The proposed independent environment monitoring agency is, of course, the reincarnation of An Foras Forbartha and that must prove, even to the Government, what a tragedy it was to abolish that body in the first place. The problem facing the Minister is that he has to do a humpty-dumpty exercise and it will take years to reassemble the skills and the professionalism which characterised An Foras Forbartha. What a loss for this country that so many of the finest environmental scientists are now protecting the environment in Australia and other countries precisely because the last Government were so short-sighted and stubborn in abolishing An Foras Forbartha.

Of course, all the agencies and ministries do not substitute for resources and neither do the kind of high profile initiatives which the Minister mentioned this evening even if, with some juggling of the figures, they come to £5 million. The Estimate represents a real cut of 9 per cent over 1988 and the 1988 figure, in turn, was down 31 per cent on the 1987 figure although it will be argued that that was due to changes resulting from loan repayments. The Government's alleged concern for the environment is nothing more than a public relations stunt, a fob-off to the environmental lobby. It is remarkable that in the Minister's speech not once did he mention the rates support grants for local authorities, the largest environmental spending agencies in the country. The Minister did not mention the fact that the rates support grant to those authorities has been cut by 7 per cent in the Estimate or by more than 10 per cent in real terms.

It is understandable that the Minister would not mention this because in 1978, following the abolition of rates, the Fianna Fáil Government undertook to maintain the real value of local authority rates through the rates support grant. Of course, that was not done. Indeed, the income to local authorities has fallen seriously behind not only with regard to the potential income from rates but also with regard to inflation. In 1978 the total allocated to local authorities was £81 million in lieu of domestic rates. Adjusted for inflation alone that would now be £225 million but in the Estimate before us we have £160 million, a £65 million shortfall taking inflation into account. To that must be added the shortfall resulting from the grant in lieu of agricultural rates which in 1977 was £70 million and, adjusted for inflation, would now be £200 million.

In addition one must add the amount which would have accrued as a result of increased housing development. Nowhere is that more clear than in the Dublin County Council area, the population of which is greater than the city administrative area. In fact, it is the fastest growing urban area in Europe. If the rates support grant had kept pace with the potential from rates the income to Dublin County Council would be £80 million by way of rates support grant but it is only £18 million. All that means is that local services are being decimated. How many libraries are closed this month? One only has to look at the amount of grass on our roadsides. Any residents' association will be able to list the essential work they would like to see done whether it is the erection of a set of traffic lights, the improvement of a footpath or other minor works. Local authority tenants are in a position to highlight how long is takes to have essential repairs carried out, much less major refurbishment.

In my constituency, directly across the road from the Blackrock Clinic, there is a little housing estate built by the British in the last century but those houses do not have any bathrooms and only one water tap. Many of them are in need of essential repairs. What a shame, after 70 years since the meeting of the First Dáil, and what a shame for the Estimate before us which does not offer any relief to those people.

At the same time as local services are being slashed, tax-paying householders are being harassed into paying unacceptable service and water charges. The Fianna Fáil Party in the 1985 local elections, and again in the 1987 general election, promised to abolish those charges. Instead of abolition we have local authority managements sending out their staff to cut off water and, in one county at least, to mark refuse sacks for collection by their refuse collection service. That is a shame. It represents an attack on law-abiding people whose taxes have increased. For example, since the abolition of domestic rates the total take from PAYE tax has gone up by 429 per cent, six times the rate of increase to local authorities in that period.

However, it is in the area of housing that the Estimate stands condemned. In the Estimate we find that the grants for the provision and improvement of local authority housing and so on are down 19 per cent; grants for new homes are down 28 per cent; grants for improvements to houses are down 60 per cent and other housing grants and subsidies are down 15 per cent. What do we see in the programme for government in relation to housing? Four lines represent the new Government's entire programme on housing. Is it any wonder that many people on local authority housing lists, and young families who are trying to set up home, are in a state of despair? This is remarkable particularly when it comes from a party which pride themselves as the party of the construction industry.

I heard the Minister state that he had plans to put 3,000 construction workers back to work but, unfortunately, that is an empty promise. The fact of life in the construction industry is that for every six people employed in that type of work there are four such workers out of work. The money allocated by Governments for housing construction since 1982 has been cut in real terms by more than 65 per cent.

I do not know where the Minister got his information that the numbers on the housing lists are dropping. I find it remarkable that he mentioned a figure of 900 new housing starts. It would take nearly that many houses to take the number of applicants in my constituency alone off the housing waiting list. In the Borough of Dún Laoghaire there are 450 applicants on the waiting list, many of them living in rat infested, Rachman-owned type private accommodation, paying extraordinary rents and being subsidised by the State because they have not been allocated local authority accommodation. It is not that the corporation have not made any efforts — they have and I am sure other local authorities have too — to try to extract commitments from the Department and the Government to have housing schemes started.

In February 1987 Dún Laoghaire Corporation asked the Department of the Environment to accept the lowest tender for 50 houses in Loughlinstown. We are still waiting for an answer. In October 1987 we asked the Department to approve the tender for development works on a further 105 houses but we are still waiting for an answer. In May 1988 preliminary proposals and a cost plan were submitted for 14 houses in Monks-town but we are still waiting for a reply from the Department of the Environment. Every local authority have submitted proposals to the Minister's Department but they are awaiting approval. In the meantime large numbers of people are waiting for housing accommodation.

Great play has been made by the Minister of some areas of his Estimate. For example, he made reference to the efforts he is making to contribute to the protection of the ozone layer but the only mention of the ozone layer in the Estimates is the Vienna Convention on the Protection of the Ozone Layer to which £3,000 is being allocated and the Geneva Convention on Long Range Transboundary Pollution to which £7,000 is being allocated. These are pathetic sums if the Minister is serious about contributing to the international efforts on environmental protection.

The much lauded £5 million he quoted under Subhead G in the Estimate is again a very small sum for a very essential area of environmental protection. A sum of £20,000 is being provided for pollution control but how much pollution can one control for £20,000, especially at a time when the money to local authorities who in turn are the agencies responsible for the control of pollution in their own areas, is being slashed? Reference has been made to smog. It was much commented on during the course of the year that the moneys allocated by the Government to deal with this area were totally inadequate. Again the sum allocated in the Estimate this year, £1 million, is inadequate to deal with that problem.

For all those reasons The Workers' Party will be opposing the Estimate. If we want to translate the kind of verbal concern for the environment that we have heard so much of in this House and elsewhere it will have to be translated into resources, in particular resources for local authorities who are in the front line in relation to the protection of the environment.

Mr. Connolly

I, too, congratulate the Minister for the Environment on his well deserved reappointment. Deputy Quinn, who is not here now, was most unfair to the Minister, leaving myself aside altogether. I had special responsibility for urban renewal in housing and other relevant areas and the Minister for the Environment never interfered or stopped me from making a decision on any matter for which I was responsible. In fact, it was the other way round; he was most co-operative and helpful. He fought the case of any issue for which I was responsible and which had to be brought to the Government.

I want to say also in regard to roads that before we came into office the Coalition Government at the time had allocated £5 million only for repairs to county roads. When we came into office we immediately increased that to £10 million.

Mr. Shatter

You reduced the rates support grant.

Mr. Connolly

The Deputy might not like to hear this. We revised the Estimate——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Connolly

——and substantially increased it for the county roads.

Is the proposal that the Deputy's time be shared satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. Farrelly

I should like to avail of this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his reappointment. Looking at his introductory remarks it would appear to me that he is shellshocked by the events of the last week or ten days. If Johnston Mooney and O'Brien were still in existence they would have cleared all their debts with the amount of humble pie that had to be eaten by certain Members of this House over the past ten days.

Deputy Gay Mitchell is sharing in the time of Deputy Farrelly.

Mr. G. Mitchell

In the few minutes left of Deputy Farrelly's time I want to put down a few markers because I understand we will have an opportunity later in the year to debate at greater length the Department of the Environment when a token Estimate is brought before the House. Before doing that I would like to take the opportunity to wish the Minister well in his reappointment as Minister and I hope the Minister of State will either be back at that Department or in some other Department. Despite the form he may be in this evening he has always been a very courteous Member of the House. When I was my party's spokesman on urban renewal I found it a great pleasure to deal with him and I wish him every success.

I want to mention very briefly some matters which are of concern to me. The Minister pointed out that there was not, in his view, the scale of difficulty with the housing waiting lists as indicated by other Members of the House. The reason for that is that the Minister's statistics do not take into account the numbers of Irish people who are on the housing waiting lists in Islington, Hammersmith, Hackney and other such places. A very serious situation is developing. At present there are about 10,000 people, between the transfer list and the allocations list of Dublin Corporation, who will be on the list on 1 November next. Many of them are already on the list. It seems to me that the problem for a number of people on the transfer list could be dealt with very satisfactorily if instead of undertaking a massive house building programme in the inner city where there is not enough space, the Minister were to heed the suggestions I have been making in this House, month in, month out, for the past two or three years about the need to refurbish the inner city flats. I am surprised no other Member of the House has mentioned it here tonight. The Minister touched on it very briefly in his speech but did not come to terms with the problem.

Dublin Corporation have about 16,000 flats: 1,000 of those are senior citizen flats and are generally in good condition but of the remaining 15,000 about 10,000, or two-thirds of the flats, are in an environmental condition that makes them not fit for human habitation. It may well be that the Minister technically can say they qualify under the various Health Acts but would we, or anybody in this House, aspire to live in the conditions that we ask some of the tenants of Dublin Corporation — and I am sure other local authorities around the country — to live? If instead of spending £50,000 per unit building houses in the inner city the Minister spent £10,000 per unit he would have a very good job done in our city flats. If he spent £20,000 he would have done an absolutely luxurious job. The reality is that those flats which were built largely in the thirties and forties are in need of major refurbishment. I challenge the Minister — if he does not believe me — to take a look around some of the inner city flat complexes; they are appalling. Before we talk about the whole need to look at Temple Bar——

Mr. Flynn

I was the first Minister ever to do anything about it.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I did not interrupt the Minister.

Mr. Flynn

At least be accurate, I was the first Minister to do anything about it.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Minister will not see much of this in his own constituency. Let me make the point in the few minutes at my disposal. The reality is that people are being asked to live in conditions which are absolutely appalling, in which none of us in this House would aspire to for ourselves or our families. It can be sorted out for a relatively small amount of money. I set out in a policy document which I launched last year how it can be funded. I am not even asking the Minister to find the funding, I set out how it can be funded. What is wrong with the Minister or those who are advising him that they have failed to heed the voice of Dublin Corporation? We have had special council meetings, special housing committee meetings, I have raised it in this House on the Estimates, by way of parliamentary questions and on the Adjournment but nothing is coming out of that Department to deal with the appalling situation in which people live. In addition, there are 2,000 tenants of Dublin Corporation, this year of millennium plus one, who still do not have a bathroom. How many times have I raised that matter in this House and there has not been one mention of it in the Minister's speech?

We are concerned about the environment of Temple Bar, the Georgian buildings and the general environment, which I think is a very worthy cause, but if we make the living conditions of the people in the inner city acceptable and take away the terrible squalor which exists in some of our inner city flats those people will ensure that the other environmental problems which are there will not be allowed to continue because they will have a commitment to the area. I urge the Minister, for Heaven's sake, to address the question of the inner city flat complexes and the whole question of bathrooms before the situation gets completely out of hand.

An Ceann Comhairle

I regret that the time available to the Deputy is now exhausted.

Mr. G. Mitchell

It is an essential matter to be addressed by this House and I will be returning to the subject at greater length when we have an opportunity later in the year.

Mr. Ryan

A Cheann Comhairle and colleagues, first I would like to congratulate the Minister on his reappointment and I look forward to a lot of good work over the coming years. It has been acknowledged by the most senior of the public representatives in this House that an election campaign gives each one of us an opportunity of meeting people and listening to them. It is important for Members to bring the views and concerns of people at large to the House. I can accept that the Minister, or indeed the Minister of State may not like to hear what we are saying but it is up to Members to bring the public's views to this Chamber in order to try to influence the direction of policy.

In Dublin, particularly in County Dublin, local authority housing has reached a crisis. I will offer to bring the Minister or the Minister of State around my constituency, or indeed any constituency in the greater Dublin area to see the extent of the problems on the ground. People are living in rat infested conditions. Young couples trying to make a start are living in draught ridden conditions or in mobile homes where the condensation is streaming from the ceiling when they get up in the morning. All the public representatives know that people living in these conditions face saturated sheets when they get up in the morning. These unfortunate people, who cannot look after their own needs, cannot get the normal health services to which they are entitled. For example, in Swords there are over 170 applicants on the housing list. They do not want to know that the list has been reduced by 40 per cent since 1982. As other Deputies have mentioned, much of this had been brought about by the policies of other Governments, who had a definite commitment to provide housing for people in need — indeed the Estimates from 1982 to 1985 show that — and it was not until 1987-1989 that there was a reduction in the finance for local authority housing. Because of the large number of applications from people in Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk the housing lists are becoming longer and longer. However, I hope when replying to the Estimate this evening the Minister will give some joy to the people in the greater Dublin area by sanctioning the Castlegrange scheme which has been awaiting sanction in his Department for the past 18 months. I hope the Minister might do that this evening.

I have seen no reference to unfinished estates. During the previous general election, when Fianna Fáil were going around the constituency they gave a commitment that something would be done about this problem but nothing had come on stream in the two and a half years they were in Government. In fact, in Balbriggan people in the Braemor estate have waited 14 years to have their estate taken in charge. A new generation has grown up without open spaces. I accept that I cannot put the blame entirely on the Minister or indeed on any Minister, but the necessary legislation has to come from this House. Unfortunately, the county council do not have the power to act in this area and we have to do something about this.

I now wish to deal with planning compensation and the lack of progress in this respect. At a time when the local authorities have not sufficient money to provide additional public lighting in certain areas we take issue that we, the people of Dublin, are asked to pay £2 million compensation to a developer. The people take issue with this because the developer in question left nothing but a trail of unfinished estates across the county. Yet the proposed legislation before the last Dáil did not deal with this issue. That is part of the problem. I live in the parish of Donabate. The most recent compensation claim now with the arbitrator is for another £2 million. When one considers that this company is not registered in this country — they are registered in the Isle of Man — and yet they expect the ordinary people to pay anything up to £2 million compensation, it is time to call a halt. The people have told the Taoiseach and the Minister that enough is enough. The message about the health services was very clear and the people are giving us a very clear message about planning compensation. They are saying that this scandal has to be dealt with. I hope the proposed legislation will introduce a retrospective element. He should listen to the views from all sides of the House thus ensuring that the legislation will be dealt with once and for all.

I thank you a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for giving me the opportunity to express my views. I now wish to deal with water pollution. In Balbriggan we have a defective sewerage system. Commitments were made more than two years ago to provide a modern treatment plant for the gown, but what did we get? We were told that it was sufficient to extend the existing pipe into the Irish Sea, thus piping raw sewage into the Irish Sea. That is not good enough and we want proper treatment plants in all our towns, particularly on the coast.

On the basis of my contribution I hope the Minister and the Minister of State will take on board what I have said and I hope that we will have a response as soon as possible.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I notice that Deputy Garland and Deputy Foxe have been here since the commencement of the debate. The fate of Independents is that they must wait until the heavier parties have been satisfied but with the co-operation of the House I hope we will be able to accommodate them.

Mr. Boylan

I have no wish to delay and I will make some brief comments which are important to the area I represent.

Some day I must take a drive to see where the Minister is living. Obviously he is not aware of the problems that exist. I am serious about this matter and I will keep coming back to it later in the year when we have more time to discuss it.

With regard to housing, to say here that the housing problem has been solved is far from reality. There are major problems with regard to the provision of rural cottages. Many people still want to live in rural Ireland although some people here seem to think otherwise. I submit a list of applications regularly to the county manager for the provision of rural cottages but we have not got the finance. An application was made to the Department eight years ago for a scheme of 15 houses in a small town called Ballyconnell in Cavan, just on the Border but we are still awaiting sanction. I am asking the Minister to make provision for this scheme and let us get on with the work there. People are still anxious to live in that part of the country. We are looking forward to 1992 when there may be light at the end of the tunnel and hope for people in that area.

Housing repairs are another major problem. When people are anxious to keep their homes in order it is bad policy to allow them to be run down for the sake of spending perhaps £20,000, £40,000 or £50,000 per annum. Slates may be blown off houses, windows cracked or whatever. That amount of money is a small provision to make annually to ensure that we keep our stock of houses in reasonable repair.

With regard to the Structural Funds, that was the greatest political gimmick ever exercised in this country. Has anything factual been sent to Brussels in relation to the Structural Funds? Have any of the proposals which were made at the regional meetings been submitted? My information is that they have not. The chairman in my area told me he has received many applications which have not even been opened yet. That is wrong and is sad. People believed this was an opportunity for business development and they sat down, put pen to paper and made proposals but they have heard nothing since, not even an acknowledgement in some cases. That is wrong because when people are led to believe there is something to be achieved and suddenly it falls apart, they get very disillusioned and lose heart. I believe the outline of a plan has been submitted to Brussels. For God's sake, put a bit of beef on the bones. I know from the MEP in my area that there is good will. The plan should be submitted so that we can get the finance that is available.

With regard to urban renewal, the Minister of State specifically mentioned programmes in this regard. I make no apology for saying that towns in the Border region are totally dilapidated and need a face-life. When talking about North-South relations, it is not very encouraging for people to travel further South when they see derelict towns and villages. This is not the fault of the residents who have simply gone out of business. I could name the towns and villages but I will not take up time doing so now: I will submit them to the Minister. Villages such as Butler's Bridge, Redhills, Ballyhaise, and towns such as Ballyconnell, Swanlinbar, and Blacklion are in need of renewal immediately.

Pollution is a major problem. I refer to Lough Sheelin in my own county which was one of the most famous trout fishing lakes in Europe but unfortunately pollution destroyed the fishing there. Great effort was made to deal with the problem and a scheme was set up to remove slurry and spread it outside the catchment area. That was an excellent success but unfortunately I believe that the lake has again started to deteriorate. An announcement was made by, I think, the Minister for Tourism and Transport — if I am wrong I will accept it but certainly some senior Minister in the Cabinet made a major announcement — about an effort that was made in regard to a development for the recycling of the waste in that area. Over eight or nine months ago a grandiose announcement was made, there was a major press statement and guests were invited but to date we have heard nothing with regard to the progress that has been made or whether there has been any breakthrough. Are we again building up people's hopes about something that will not be a reality? There is not a line in this statement by the Minister in relation to that development. It certainly warrants a progress report as it is one of the most important lakes in the country.

With regard to the Local Government (Water Pollution) (Amendment) Bill, the Minister stated that it will be on the Order Paper again but I hope it will not appear in its original form because that was a draconian measure. You will not drive people into making necessary improvements; you must encourage them. By introducing that measure the Minister would be waving the big stick unnecessarily. It was proposed to impose fines of £25,000 which is sufficient to put a small farmer out of business and bankrupt him. He should be given a reasonable grant and shown how the work should be done. The Minister tells me that the grants are available. They are available if the farmer can get the go-ahead from the farm development office to do the work. The people have made their applications but they cannot get the go-ahead because the officers in the farm development service are not allowed to visit the farms due to non-availability of money for expenses. People are anxious to do the work and grants are available but they cannot get the sanction.

Mr. Kirk

The Deputy is exaggerating.

Mr. Boylan

We are then talking about imposing a fine of £25,000 if they are caught polluting a river.

Mr. Kirk

The Deputy is exaggerating.

Mr. Boylan

I am not exaggerating. These are important matters and those are the facts. Perhaps the previous Government were fully aware of what was happening but we will keep spelling it out and drawing it to their attention. I am not coming in here to try to raise hares or get carried away about issues that are not factual. These are factual issues that are affecting the people and I am asking the Minister to take cognisance of them. He should take another look at that Bill before he reintroduces it. If it is properly presented it will have our support, but if not it will not have our support. I wanted to refer to other items but I take it that other speakers want to contribute. I ask the Minister to take serious note of what I have said. Again, I wish him well and I hope for an improved performance over the next couple of years.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

All the major parties have used their allocation of time. The Workers' Party have had 15 minutes out of a possible two hours and they will appreciate that is the maximum time we can allow them. The Labour Party have used their allocation as have Fine Gael. Bearing in mind that the Minister has to be allowed in at 8.40 p.m., I think we should give five minutes each to the two Independent Members who have had no time yet.

Mr. Garland

Thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for your indulgence in giving me five minutes. We read last week in the programme for government that a new office for the protection and improvement of the environment is being set up as well as an independent environmental monitoring agency. It is most disappointing that there is nothing whatever in the Minister's speech regarding either of these two new departures.

The new office for the protection and improvement of the environment is certainly welcome but it is no substitute for a Department of the Environment which would be limited solely and strictly to environmental matters, which of course is not the case at present. This would be a simpler and more direct solution. It is recognised by all parties that there is a need to give a much higher degree of priority to the environment than hitherto.

It is very important that the new, independent environmental monitoring authority be completely independent of the Government and the Department of the Environment. This was not so with An Foras Forbartha who were really under the control of the Department of the Environment and were not a totally free agent. I hope the Minister will take note of this comment. I want to be constructive about this. I know one of the new authority's main tasks will be to carry out studies and publish reports and I trust these reports will be readily available to interested members of the public. Freedom of information on environmental matters is absolutely essential.

One of the biggest problems facing Dublin is the appalling atmospheric conditions prevailing on many days in winter time. It is well known that smog causes many unnecessary deaths each winter. The prevarication by the Minister is notorious. He seems to be totally in the pocket of the coal lobby represented by Coal Information Services. This is well illustrated by the pathetic faith the Minister has in the full burning fire being marketed by Coal Distributors Limited. CDL claim a rate of efficiency of 80 per cent whereas the Eolas report records that 17 per cent efficiency would be nearer the mark. Section 39 of the Air Pollution Act was inserted specifically at the request of Coal Information Services. This was admitted by the Minister during the Dáil debate on the Bill. This section was to give the coal industry the right to object to any proposed smoke control area thus delaying the implementation of these very necessary control orders. It is outrageous that the Government should have caved in in such a supine way to this pressure group. This pandering to the coal lobby will have to cease. I wonder how much CDL contributed to the Fianna Fáil Party funds. Action is needed before the winter. This matter must be dealt with and grants should be made immediately for closed appliances which, of course, are much more energy efficient. Also, incentives should be introduced immediately for the use of smokeless fuel. We should go further; we should prevent by law the sale of household coal. Make it illegal and get on with it. The whole of Dublin city should be the subject of a smoke control order. This was done in London in 1955 but 34 years on we are not prepared to do it for Dublin.

I hope the Minister will do something about the scandal of the proposed Merrell Dow factory in east Cork. I appeal to him to find some way of stopping this crazy project.

The next problem is the Water Pollution Bill which is inadequate in many respects. Will the Minister come out from behind the officialese and say whether this Bill will be put before the Dáil before the recess? Saying it will be put on the Order Paper does not make sense to the ordinary person in the street. We have heard a number of references in the House tonight to fish kills, water pollution is a contributory factor to this problem.

Finally, on the Sellafield issue all we get is another burst of verbal environmentalism, such waffle as that the new Government will examine all legal options under the EURATOM Treaty. The Minister has had two and a half years to consider these options. For example, in 1987 and 1988 the Irish delegation to the Paris Commission called for the closing of Sellafield. In June of this year the Commission met in Dublin but this time the Irish delegation failed to make a similar demand.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Garland, I am sorry to interrupt you but you are now into the seventh minute of what was supposed to be a five-minute contribution.

Mr. Garland

Half a minute more please. This gives the lie to the Minister's assurance that everything that can be done is being done. Clearly, diplomacy has failed. What is needed is action now, legal action against the British Government.

Mr. Foxe

Thank you, Sir, for allowing me time to speak. I would like to compliment and congratulate Deputy Flynn on his appointment to the position of Minister for the Environment. I note with interest that his Department have instituted certain surveys of our waterways, both rivers and lakes, to find out the source of pollution. Be it individual farms, factory farms, town councils or county councils, it is most desirable that the source be found. While penalties are desirable it is more important to have the people responsible for causing the pollution educated in manners and ways of preventing further pollution. It is the prevention of pollution we are interested in, not penalties.

It is the ambition of our new Government apparently — the stated ambition anyhow — to have all cattle housed in winter. That is desirable and fast may the day roll on when it is achieved. However, with that will come certain problems of keeping animals in confined spaces and, needless to say, one big problem facing us again will be pollution. We all enjoy a good clean, healthy environment and we should not leave it up to the farmers to be the sole protectors of that environment. We may bear in mind that up to 70 per cent of farmers have incomes of less than £5,000 annually, equivalent to £100 a week, and then we ask those very people to spend in the region of £7,000 to £10,000 on tanks or pits to collect the effluent which causes the pollution. It is unrealistic on our part to expect that.

One way of overcoming the problem would be to make more finance available in this area. In certain parts of the country the rate of grant for these tanks is 15 per cent, in other parts 25 per cent. By way of encouraging people to build such tanks and prevent pollution from silage effluent and other farm waste we should increase the rate of grant to 100 per cent. It is ironic that when the Government's stated policy is the preservation of the farming family the agricultural advisory body who provide information to the farmers on the most effective and efficient way of running their farms, preventing pollution and so on, are being decimated in their numbers. If we are serious about preserving farming families and about decreasing pollution from farming, instead of reducing the numbers in Teagasc, we should be increasing them. Silage effluent in itself is not a poisonous substance; it is fed to animals in other countries as well as here, but it absorbs oxygen in the water with the result that fish die of oxygen starvation. They are not poisoned. A little incentive to the agricultural scientists to investigate ways and means of using silage effluent rather than containing it first and then spreading it over the ground so that it eventually finds its way through to the waterways might be one option to bear in mind.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Flynn)

Ba mhaith lion mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí uilig a chuir fáilte roimh an Meastachán agus a thóg páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Gabhaim buíochas go háirithe leis na Teachtaí uilig a rinne comhghairdeas liom féin as ucht mé a bheith athcheaptha mar Aire Comhshaoil agus dar ndóigh deanaim é sin thar mo cheann féin agus thar ceann an Aire Stáit a bheidh le ceapadh sa Roinn.

It would be impossible, of course, to deal in any comprehensive way with the major matters raised here. As is the case every time an Environment Estimate is discussed, one could be here for hours discussing matters which are of great concern to everybody. However, I shall just hit on a few of the items that seem to cause recurring difficulties and which have been raised by a number of speakers.

Have the heads of the Bill been circulated?

Mr. Flynn

A memorandum with draft heads of the Bill has been circulated to other Government Departments and I hope to introduce the Bill in the next session. The commitment I gave a couple of months ago was that it would be on the Statute Book before Christmas.

I would take issue with Deputy Quinn regarding private investment in roads. We tentatively estimated that the money available would be between £50 million and £100 million in the period 1990 to 1994. The roads programme will continue to be funded for the most part by the Exchequer with EC assistance. Deputy Quinn will be pleased when he realises the interest among the private sector with regard to tolling franchises. There is an interested party in regard to the Dublin ring road and when a full examination of the matter is public knowledge Deputy Quinn will be the first to agree that it is quite a successful initiative.

Mr. McGahon

What about the Newry to Dundalk road?

Mr. Flynn

Regarding Deputy Gilmore's point about the drop in the percentage of GNP, the reason is the change in the funding arrangements for local authorities in the recent past. He would not be expected to know about it at this stage. The Local Loans Fund Act, 1987, ended circular payments to local authorities. The end of those circular payments removed about £300 million from the Estimate in 1988. There will be a cumulative increase each year. Perhaps that is the reason the Deputy misunderstood this point. It is not correct to say that our contribution to international organisations, particularly those involved in the environment, is an indication of our interest. Our contributions to the United Nations environmental programme, the Paris Convention, the Vienna Convention and the Geneva Convention are set down in the international arrangements. We make our full commitment in all those areas.

Many other matters were referred to but the Leas-Cheann Comhairle prohibits me from making a more substantial response.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not my decision. It is the order of the House.

Mr. Flynn

I thank all those who contributed to the debate. Note was taken of all the matters raised and I will carefully consider them in relation to the Department's activities in the coming years.

Vote put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 72.

Tá

Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Andrews, David.
Aylward, Liam.
Barrett, Michael.
Brady, Vincent.
Brennan, Mattie.
Brennan, Séamus.
Briscoe, Ben.
Browne, John. (Wexford)
Burke, Raphael P.
Calleary, Seán.
Callely, Ivor.
Clohessy, Peadar.
Collins, Gerard.
Connolly, Ger.
Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
Cowen, Brian.
Cullimore, Séamus.
Daly, Brendan.
Davern, Noel.
Dempsey, Noel.
Dennehy, John.
de Valera, Síle.
Ellis, John.
Fahey, Frank.
Fahey, Jackie.
Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
Flynn, Pádraig.
Foxe, Tom.
Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
Harney, Mary.
Hillery, Brian.
Hyland, Liam.
Jacob, Joe.
Kelly, Laurence.
Kenneally, Brendan.
Kirk, Séamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
Kitt, Tom.
Lawlor, Liam.
Leonard, Jimmy.
Leyden, Terry.
Lyons, Denis.
Martin, Michéal.
McCreevy, Charlie.
McDaid, Jim.
McEllistrim, Tom.
Molloy, Robert.
Morley, P.J.
Noonan, Michael J.
(Limerick West).
O'Connell, John.
O'Dea, Willie.
O'Donoghue, John.
O'Hanlon, Rory.
O'Keeffe, Ned.
O'Kennedy, Michael.
O'Leary, John.
O'Malley, Desmond J.
O'Rourke, Mary.
O'Toole, Martin Joe.
Power, Seán.
Quill, Máirín.
Reynolds, Albert.
Roche, Dick.
Smith, Michael.
Stafford, John.
Treacy, Noel.
Tunney, Jim.
Wallace, Dan.
Wallace, Mary.
Walsh, Joe.
Wilson, John P.
Woods, Michael.
Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

Ahearn, Theresa.
Allen, Bernard.
Barnes, Monica.
Belton, Louis J.
Boylan, Andrew.
Bradford, Paul.
Browne, John.
(Carlow-Kilkenny).
Bruton, Richard.
Carey, Donal.
Connaughton, Paul.
Connor, John.
Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
Cotter, Bill.
Creed, Michael.
Crowley, Frank.
D'Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, Austin.
Deenihan, Jimmy.
De Rossa, Proinsias.
Doyle, Joe.
Dukes, Alan.
Durkan, Bernard.
Enright, Thomas W.
Farrelly, John V.
Fennell, Nuala.
Ferris, Michael.
Finnucane, Michael.
FitzGerald, Garret.
Garland, Roger.
Gilmore, Eamon.
Gregory, Tony.
Harte, Paddy.
Higgins, Jim.
Higgins, Michael D.
Hogan, Phillip.
Howlin, Brendan.
Barrett, Seán.
Barry, Peter.
Bell, Michael.
Kavanagh, Liam.
Kemmy, Jim.
Kenny, Enda.
Lee, Pat.
Lowry, Michael.
McCartan, Pat.
McCormack, Pádraic.
McGahon, Brendan.
McGinley, Dinny.
Mac Giolla, Tomás.
McGrath, Paul.
Mitchell, Gay.
Moynihan, Michael.
Nealon, Ted.
O'Brien, Fergus.
O'Keeffe, Jim.
O'Shea, Brian.
O'Sullivan, Gerry.
O'Sullivan, Toddy.
Pattison, Séamus.
Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.
Reynolds, Gerry.
Ryan, Seán.
Shatter, Alan.
Sheehan, Patrick J.
Sherlock, Joe.
Spring, Dick.
Stagg, Emmet.
Taylor, Mervyn.
Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
Timmins, Godfrey.
Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and D. Ahern; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.

Question declared carried.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 18 Jul 1989

Estimates, 1989. - Vote 25: Environment ( Revised Estimate ).

Tá

Níl

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Jul 1989