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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1989

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 4, 3, 8, 9, and 10. It is also proposed that No. 4 and all Stages of No. 3 shall be taken without debate. It is further proposed that the proceedings on Committee Stage of No. 8, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for Justice. It is further proposed that the Dáil shall meet tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m.

Deputies McCartan and Spring rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to put the questions on the Order of Business. Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 4 and 3 agreed?

Mr. McCartan

They are not agreed. I want to raise two issues. Before The Workers' Party agree to item No. 4 being taken without debate we seek clarification from the Taoiseach on the position of the Ombudsman. There is no provision in the Order of Business for today for taking a motion to reappoint the Ombudsman. We want to get an assurance from the Taoiseach that this matter will be dealt with before the Dáil adjourns tomorrow. We will not agree to item No. 4 being taken without debate——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is using the Order of Business to raise a particular matter.

Mr. McCartan

I am simply seeking clarification of the position of the Ombudsman before we agree to taking item No. 4 without debate. Will the issue of the Ombudsman be dealt with before this Dáil rises for the Christmas recess?

Mr. Spring

On the Order of Business, I raised this matter on Tuesday and Wednesday and I will probably have to raise it again tomorrow morning. Perhaps the Taoiseach would intervene at this stage and give the House an assurance that the necessary resolution will be brought before the House. There has been no consultation between the Whips and if the order is not made by 4 p.m. tomorrow there will not be an Ombudsman on 1 January. Perhaps the Taoiseach will take this opportunity to clarify the matter.

The Taoiseach

It has nothing to do with the Committee of Public Accounts.

Mr. McCartan

I am simply seeking the assistance of the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy McCartan, resume your seat.

A Deputy

The Chair is the Ombudsman.

An Ceann Comhairle

Although the matter raised by the two Deputies concerned is not strictly relevant on the Order of Business it has been raised in the last two days and I can do nothing more in the matter. It is not in order now.

Mr. Spring

A Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Indeed, I might say further, that Deputies had ample opportunity of putting down questions in respect of this matter.

Mr. Spring

With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, if the Taoiseach does not indicate at this stage that a resolution will be on the Order of Business for tomorrow, which I believe is now impossible, obviously he is not going to reappoint the Ombudsman. In that event we will oppose the Order of Business.

Mr. McCartan

That is the position. We are seeking clarification at this stage.

Mr. Dukes

What we are doing now is ordering business for today and tomorrow. The concerns expressed by Deputy Spring and Deputy McCartan are very real and I think the Taoiseach should say whether the order for today or tomorrow can include anything more than is set out here. There is another matter I should like to raise when we have dealt with this one.

The Taoiseach

We are dealing with the motion for the Committee of Public Accounts which has nothing to do with the Ombudsman. It has been agreed by the Whips, and I think this procedure by the Opposition parties is totally out of order.

A Deputy

The Taoiseach is out of order.

The Taoiseach

With regard to the last point made by Deputy Dukes, we are not ordering business for tomorrow.

Mr. McCartan

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this matter now——

Mr. McCartan

I wish to simply state the position of The Workers' Party——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry Deputy——

Mr. McCartan

The way the business for today is ordered is unacceptable to us.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, the Chair is about——

Mr. McCartan

Some provision should be made to address this issue——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will now resume his seat. I am putting the question——

Mr. Spring

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am about to put the question.

Mr. Spring

I wish to make a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am on my feet about to put the Order of Business to a vote of the House and I need not accept the point of order at this stage.

Mr. Spring

That will leave me in a dilemma.

An Ceann Comhairle

However, I will be gracious and accept it.

Mr. Spring

I thank you, Sir. I take it that in ordering the business for today it is now impossible for the Government to bring in a resolution confirming an Ombudsman for 1 January. If we agree to this now the business will be set for tomorrow. As agreed between the Whips, an Adjournment debate will take place tomorrow and no other resolution will be discussed.

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy appreciates, this is not a matter for the Chair. I am putting the question. Are the proposals for dealing with items Nos. 4 and 3 agreed?

Mr. McCartan

Why will the Taoiseach not say——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sit down, Deputy. You will not interrupt me in the performance of my duties.

Mr. McCartan

I want to raise an entirely different matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy McCartan does not resume his seat immediately he will have to leave the House.

Mr. McCartan

I want to refer to the Appropriations Bill——

An Ceann Comhairle

Leave the House, Deputy McCartan. I have instructed the Deputy to leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. McCartan

I am in my place.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan has continually disobeyed the Chair and disrupted him in putting a question to the House. I have asked the Deputy to leave the House and I insist upon that now.

Mr. J. Mitchell

This is ridiculous.

Mr. McCartan

I had indicated that there were two matters I wanted to deal with.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should leave the House.

Deputy McCartan withdrew from the Chamber.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must ask if the proposals for dealing with Nos. 4 and 3 are agreed.

Question, "That the proposals for dealing with Nos. 4 and 3 be agreed", put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 54.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessey; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 8 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with tomorrow's sitting agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dukes

Have the Government any intention of making an arrangement to explain in the House, either today or tomorrow, their reaction to the very serious criticisms levelled at them by the European Court of Auditors?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a matter which does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Dukes

I am asking if the Government will consider making time available, either today or tomorrow, to explain their position on the matter.

The Taoiseach

I will be happy to make time available to Deputy Dukes to reply in so far as the criticism mainly arose during his term of office as Minister for Finance.

Mr. Dukes

Explain it.

Mr. Rabbitte

Seeing that no other opportunity is going to present itself before the House rises, I seek clarification on a matter on which I believe this House was misled on Tuesday concerning the status of medical card holders.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is clearly not for the Order of Business. There are many ways and means open to the Deputy to pursue that matter. He must avail of that opportunity; he may not proceed with it now.

Mr. Rabbitte

I will have no other opportunity before the House rises.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, but it is not in order now.

Mr. Rabbitte

There will be no other opportunity before the House rises——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy had ample opportunity.

Mr. Rabbitte

The situation is——

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy persists, I will have to ask——

Mr. Howlin

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, allow me to deal with one matter of disorder first.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am not seeking to be disorderly.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is continuing the disorder.

Mr. Rabbitte

This could be a matter of life and death and there will be no other opportunity——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, but I am asking you to resume your seat.

Mr. Howlin

May I support the request? It is quite clear that the House was misled this week. It is a matter of great urgency——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is proceeding to deal with a matter I have ruled out of order.

Mr. Howlin

There will be no other opportunity for Members of this House to address this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Howlin, please resume your seat.

Mr. Taylor

I seek leave to raise on the Adjournment the accusations levelled against the Government by the European Court of Auditors.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

On the Order of Business, can the Taoiseach tell us if he will be in a position before tomorrow to bring legislation before this House to amend the 1987 Fisheries Act to solve the rod licence dispute? Could he now tell the House what progress has been made?

An Ceann Comhairle

If that legislation is not promised it is not in order to raise it now. I must formally ask if the legislation was promised in the House.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

It was promised; it has been repeatedly promised. It was promised that legislation would come before the House before Christmas.

The Taoiseach

It was not promised for before Christmas.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

It was repeatedly promised.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan. Deputy Taylor-Quinn must resume her seat.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Taylor-Quinn, please resume your seat.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the very serious breach by the Bank of Ireland of the Postal and Telecommunications Act, 1983.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Moynihan

I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the continued delay in finalising arrangements for the operation of the Swansea-Cork ferry in the light of the damage that has been done to Cork-Kerry tourism by the delay.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

Mr. Allen

Will the Minister for Health give an assurance that adequate flu vaccine will be made available for elderly medical card holders?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order now.

Mr. Allen

I am asking for permission to raise it on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, that is a different matter. I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Allen

I seek permission to raise it on the Adjournment. It would be a Christmas present for anyone who wants it.

Mr. Deenihan

I wish to raise on the Adjournment once again and withdrawal of funding from the Irish Amateur Boxing Association for the staging of the World Cup in 1991.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of the Deputy's interest in that matter and I will communicate with him. A number of Deputies are offering.

Mr. Durkan

I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of written Question No. 101 on yesterday's Order Paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Garland

On the Order of Business and in connection with promised legislation, seeing that legislation has not been introduced this session to put in place the EC Directive on Environment Impact Assessments, when does the Taoiseach propose to deal with this matter in the House?

The Taoiseach

I dealt with that yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I gather it was dealt with yesterday.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Minister for Health say if it is proposed to give Opposition spokespersons details of the allocation to health boards for 1990?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Howlin

I did not hear the Taoiseach's reply but I understand that the Minister has given an instruction that the information is not to be given. Is that a fact?

An Ceann Comhairle

I called Deputy Sheehan.

Mr. Allen

Even health board members cannot get it. It is a disgrace.

Mr. Sheehan

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the serious situation that has arisen from the failure of the Government to formulate and forward to Brussels the completed list for the extension of disadvantaged areas in this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. Boylan

On the last opportunity available to me this session and in the interests of preserving the livelihood of small farmers in my constituency, will the Government say what action they are taking or are they aware of the——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the Deputy wished to raise a legitimate matter on the Adjournment.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Sherlock.

Mr. Boylan

It is an important issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order. Deputy Boylan, I must ask you to resume your seat.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am asking you a second time to resume your seat. I will not ask you a third time. You will force me to ask you to leave the House.

Mr. Boylan

Can I raise the matter on the Adjournment?

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to give my approval, having regard to the Deputy's performance.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Sherlock

I ask the Taoiseach what is the Government's intention with regard to the Turf Development Bill, 1988, which has reached Committee Stage?

The Taoiseach

Next session.

Mr. Ryan

On the Order of Business, I wonder if the Taoiseach would confirm the media reports that the Government are prepared to facilitate and recognise the establishment of a Permanent Defence Forces representative association.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise now.

Mr. Howlin

In the light of the Taoiseach's silence, I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the instruction of the Minister for Health to his officials not to disclose to Members of this House the allocations to health boards for 1990.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Flanagan

I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the widespread use of radar detectors by motorists throughout the country.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. McCormack

Will the Minister for the Marine, who is present this morning, say if he has yet fixed a date for a meeting with the anglers interests to solve the rod licence dispute?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise now.

Mr. McCormack

It arises because it is essential——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCormack will resume his seat. That was ruled out of order yesterday.

Mr. McCormack

I know, but it might be in order today seeing that the Minister is here now. He was not here yesterday.

Mr. Wilson

He was selling fish yesterday.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Please Deputy McCormack, resume your seat. Is Deputy Ryan offering?

Mr. Ryan

I want to know if I can raise the matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a luxury we cannot afford. I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. McCormack

I take the silence to mean that a date has not been fixed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I see Deputy Garland offering again.

Mr. Garland

I wish to raise on the Adjournment——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Garland

——the cut in the budget for Government publications and stationery which will affect freedom of information, which is a basic right.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will be in touch with the Deputy.

Mr. Cosgrave

In the original development plan for Howth harbour which to date has cost £13 million, a fish auction hall was planned. To date this auction hall has not been provided, so, with the permission of the Chair I wish to raise it on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy. I am sorry to leave out Deputy Davern who has been offering. I apologise to him.

Mr. Davern

I knew you were blinkered.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Davern

Unfortunately, since I raised the matter yesterday morning about the national hunt prize money, the position has not changed. This matter is very urgent now that we are into the season. I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of the Deputy's interest and I will communicate with him.

Mr. McGrath

I wish to raise again on the Adjournment the subject matter of an article in the Westmeath Topic concerning illegal moneylending.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy. Deputy Finucane has been offering for some time.

Mr. Finucane

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the urgent situation in relation to amenity grants from national lottery funding and the implications of the date put by the Minister for the Environment — 15 January — on submissions. I would also like to state——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please Deputy, let there be no elaboration now. I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Sheehan

Will the Taoiseach give an assurance to the House that all headage payments will be paid to the farmers in the disadvantaged areas——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please Deputy Sheehan——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Is Deputy Rabbitte offering again?

Mr. Sheehan

Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that the payments will be made before Christmas?

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

Hear, hear.

Mr. Sheehan

The Minister for Agriculture and Food should ensure that the farmers have their grants for the Christmas period.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Sheehan, please desist.

The Taoiseach

I dearly wish there would be an outbreak of the Christmas spirit in this House.

Mr. Sheehan

How can they be paid when——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, please.

Mr. Rabbitte

I seek permission to raise on the Adjournment the confusion that obtains throughout the country concerning whether medical card holders are liable to a £5 charge——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy concerning the subject matter he has referred to, and he need not elaborate now.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will they have to pay for the vaccine at the local chemists?

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand the subject matter of your question, and I will communicate with you.

Mr. Rabbitte

I would like to add the point about the chemists.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mervyn Taylor is offering again.

Mr. Taylor

I wish to raise again on the Adjournment the matter of the Tallaght Two, Meleady and Grogan, the possibility of a judicial public inquiry and the failure to publish the Garda report.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Spring

In relation to promised legislation, before the dissolution of the last Dáil this House debated the Shannon Estuarial Authority Bill which passed Second Stage. Will that Bill be resumed on the Order Paper?

The Taoiseach

No legislation has been promised in this House by this Government.

Mr. Spring

That is what I thought.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

In view of the continued hardship arising from the rod licence dispute, I would like to raise this matter on the Adjournment——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

——seeing that the Taoiseach has not put legislation before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us proceed to the Order of Business proper.

Mr. Quinn

Perhaps the Chair might advise me and others on procedure. Do I take it from the replies we have had from the Taoiseach and from the Chair's rulings that unless legislation is specifically promised inside this House, it is not deemed to be promised at all, no matter where else it might be promised?

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a very strict ruling of the Chair in respect of that matter——

Mr. Quinn

——and that therefore the public would be well advised——

An Ceann Comhairle

——but I will be very happy to communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

——to ignore any promise to introduce legislation made by the Government outside of the House? Is that a correct interpretation?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding now to deal with the Order of Business proper.

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