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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1990

Vol. 398 No. 8

Finance Bill, 1990: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 49:
In page 17, subsection (2), line 27, after "effect." to insert "Persons whose basis of assessment has been changed by the provisions of this section, may claim a personal tax free allowance of £800 and PRSI allowance of £286, where they pay the full rate of PRSI applicable to Case I or II of Schedule D taxpayers.".
—(Deputy Noonan,Limerick East.)

Before the debate adjourned I said that I doubted that the Minister would be able to accede to Deputy Noonan's amendment due to the cost involved but there is an irrefutable case to be answered in the future. I would advise the Department and the Minister to approach this problem next year by increasing the tax free allowance or alternatively, levelling out the pay increase by abolishing the PRSI and the PAYE allowances, which is not really a runner because it would be impossible to do this due to the political fall-out. People would not accept having their allowances drastically cut but it is an alternative in levelling the playing pitch. But it would be impossible to defend any future legal or constitutional action against it. Irrespective of the legal merits or otherwise it would be unjustifiable now that the self-employed are going to be assessed on a current year basis not to give them the same allowances as everybody else. The IFA, in particular, have been making a strong case to members of all political parties in this House to pressurise the Minister on the matter. Long before it was the accepted wisdom in my own party I always made the point that farmers and the self-employed and, indeed, all taxpayers should be taxed on the same basis.

There was a lot of nonsense as well as some good ideas expressed about farmer taxation. There will always be a problem until one system is devised for everybody. There is a great deal wrong with the direct taxation system of assessing people on accounts. Deputy Noonan will remember that I have always said that every self-employed person should be taxed on the same basis and if the system is found to be bad it would be the same for all sections of the population. The difficulty arises in that there are different rules for farmers. Now that there is almost a level playing pitch there is no longer a case to be made for giving PAYE or PRSI allowances to PAYE taxpayers only and the Minister for Finance will have to concede that in the future. I recognise that the cost of the proposal for this year would be in the order of £50 million or £60 million and that that has not been provided for in the budget. As I said earlier today, income tax revenues, particularly from the self-employed, may be down this year, and therefore I concede that it would not be possible for the Minister to readjust the position now. That is why I think Deputy Noonan's amendment will fall but there is an irrefutable case for change in this area which will have to be conceded in the very near future.

It is rather unfortunate that in the previous legislation before the House an amendment which addressed this problem fell but I will not discuss it retrospectively. This amendment approaches the problem in a similar way but also deals with other categories which, in equity, is probably correct. I would have to have regard to the Minister's response as to whether we can afford to implement this proposal. Let us put the argument as it was originally put to all of us, to the Government side as well as to those in Opposition, for the family farm and those working on the farm. When the ICMSA campaign for farm tax failed or was rejected by the Minister on the basis that it was a fair tax, particularly for those farmers in smaller income categories, the Labour Party in particular, as well as other Opposition parties, immediately envisaged the anomaly that has now arisen whereby family farms do not get the same tax free allowances as other families with two working spouses. Those people can benefit by over £2,000 more than family farms. We are anxious to try to address that anomaly and we hope the Minister will be progressive in his attitude to the case we have made. He might say this amendment goes too far in that it includes all Schedule D taxpayers but we hope that between now and Report Stage the Minister will consider the anomaly that has arisen. Farmers are now taxed on a current year basis of assessment whereas heretofore they were retrospectively assessed. As has been rightly said, it was in that context that the £800 allowance was introduced for PAYE workers. Never at any time in making this case did the ICMSA suggest that there should be any loss to the PAYE sector because they share our view that that sector is overtaxed.

We hope the Minister will address the anomaly whereby family farms do not get this tax allowance and also the anomaly whereby a farmer's son who works on the farm is not treated in the same way as other PAYE workers in that he cannot claim the £800 tax free allowance, in spite of the fact that he would be included on a tax deduction card in the same way as any other employee. If he did the same work for his neighbour across the road and received the same wages, he would qualify for the £800 allowance. This discriminates against the family farm and the concept of the family which the Constitution defends so strongly. All of us who have made cases here about equality in taxation feel that families should be given preference under all tax codes and in regard to all benefits.

I said on Second Stage, in support of my colleague, Deputy Taylor, that there is a belief that incentives should be given to small family farm units so that people will remain on the land where they are happy to work. If these incentives are not given, the people will leave the farms, thereby adding to the problem of unemployment and emigration. We should legislate in every way possible to keep these people on their farms. This amendment addresses the matter to some extent but it is quite wide and I am anxious to hear the Minister's response to it. I would ask him to take on board our suggestion that he introduce an amendment on Report Stage to deal with the case made by the ICMSA. It could be addressed by Government and would get widespread support from all the Fianna Fáil Deputies who, I am sure, have also lobbied the Minister. We do not want to put down markers for the sake of putting them down. We want to address the problems and the anomalies and I hope the Minister will respond positively in this regard.

This is a very important amendment. I cannot fathom how a House of Parliament can accept that a certain section of the community should find themselves worse off than any other taxpayer. This is a very important amendment in so far as the agricultural community is concerned and I was glad to hear Deputy McCreevy's comments on this matter. It is on the floor of this House that we should correct an anomaly in the tax system which is clearly working against the best interests of a certain group of people. I am referring to the farmers and, indeed, the self-employed.

I want to refer to a number of matters in so far as this amendment is concerned.

The Government saw fit to change the tax system to a current year basis of assessment, but that was not done overnight. It is something the Minister and the Department hatched out over a number of years and there is nothing wrong with it, but we must remember that we also have to take note of the problems that certain industries will come up against when such changes are made. The Minister has turned his back on the biggest industry in the country. Sufficient notice has not been taken of the system by which family farms earn their income. As I understand it, on a current year basis of assessment, tax is paid in two instalments. During the first half of the year the self-employed and the farmers have to pay what is believed to be their fair share of tax, calculated on their perceived income for that year.

As the Minister is aware, most farmers, so far as their expenses are concerned, do not actually have an income as such for the first six or eight months of the year, for example, people who grow beet and those who rear cattle. They do not get their hands on a pound of "lolly" until the end of the year and at that stage they have actually paid their two instalments. Taken against that background there are many farming families who will pay tax on an income on which they will not lay a hand for a few months after paying the tax. The Minister is aware of that system because he comes from a farming constituency. When this section was drafted, however long ago, sufficient notice was not taken of the tax take and how it was to come from the agricultural community on a self-assessment and current year basis.

Sufficient notice has never been taken — indeed, the responsibility falls on all of us in this House that we do not say it often enough, and this is an opportunity to do so — of the contribution that families, and particularly spouses of one description or another, make. I am not aware of any successful farmer, whether big or small, who succeeds in the world of farming unless it is a joint effort on behalf of both the husband and the wife.

I do not believe one can obtain all the farmer of the year awards without the contribution of a spouse; one must take the good with the bad. You can be assured that if they want to earn a reasonable living on the land, because of the very low incomes by and large, in agriculture, if there is not a combined effort on behalf of both spouses that farm will fail. Anybody outside this House looking at the Finance Bill would say that Dáil Éireann has something against every farming family in the country. That is not good enough. This is an opportunity for the Minister to say — I do not accept some of the previous statements I have heard from the Minister for Finance and other Government Ministers on this issue — that it is too expensive to change. Nothing is too expensive to change if the system is wrong. That is the point. If the system is wrong it is up to us and the Minister to change it.

When the planners were in action and when it was decided to collect the tax on a current year basis it should have been made known at that time that it would put enormous pressure on farming families and that it would be inequitable, as now seems to be the case.

I take with a grain of salt all the pious platitudes which I hear from the Opposition benches that it is important that this should be changed as it is unfair. There is no point in having a parliament or a Finance Bill if everybody believes that something should be changed and still we do nothing about it. I hope the Minister will spell out exactly what this would cost. It is not now that he should be costing it, it should have been done when the idea was conceived of taking tax on a current year basis. I understand that the Commission on Taxation have also suggested that farmers and the self-employed generally should be on the same level playing pitch as everybody else. It will not be enough for the Minister for Finance of the day to say: "It is too costly, we cannot touch it". There is no point in throwing the ball to this side of the House and saying: "It is a pious platitude on behalf of the Opposition and when one is in opposition one can say such things". I acknowledge that, but what I am saying is that a monumental mistake was made when the idea of payment of this tax on a current year basis was hatched. The Minister should have known extremely well what would happen. It is incumbent on the Minister and on the Government to ensure that this anomaly is removed as quickly as possible. It is not enough to tell the House that because it will cost so much we cannot change it. No other sector of the community would accept that kind of treatment. I have no doubt from the tremendous lobbying, certainly in my constituency, by both farming organisations, the ICMSA, the IFA, and by every other person I have met, that it is important that their views be brought to the floor of this House.

There is no way that a sector as large as the agriculture sector and the people who make up that industry can be treated as second class citizens. If this amendment is not passed a huge section of our people will be relegated to second class citizens. That is something which I hope the Minister would not want to happen, I certainly do not want it.

I want to place on record that I also support this amendment. I, too, was formally contacted by both farming organisations, and particularly by the ICMSA. There is an unanswerable case here. It is probably fair to say that every politician who reaches the rank of Minister for Finance or, indeed, any ministerial office, would wish to leave behind at least one item of legislation by which he or she can be remembered to his or her credit. I have absolutely no doubt that Deputy Reynolds, in his capacity as Minister for Finance, would want to have the same credit left behind before he aspires to higher things.

That will put him on his way.

In this House we preside over the drafting of legislation. Occassionally laws are sent to the Supreme Court to test their constitutionality when they leave this House. In those cases we are not sure whether they are constitutional. In this case it is very clear that there is discrimination and an anomaly which should be addressed on the floor of this House before the Bill leaves it. The only people who can apply themselves to rectifying this problem are the people who have brought about the anomaly in the first place. The change to bring about the same method of taxation for PAYE workers and farmers will result in blatant discrimination against the farming community; husband and wife family team and the family farm. If that happens this Government will preside over something which we know is unjust and which will have the consequence, before the end of this decade, of the disappearance of at least 40,000 farms of under 30 acres throughout the country. That will have a social impact of enormous consequences. I would like to think that the figures and statistics which have been supplied by the farming organisations which stand up are being addressed by various members of the Government parties — even though it is a temporary little arrangement. Once they have accepted that fundamental principle the Minister for Finance, in his benign office, should see to it that this discriminatory anomaly is dealt with.

There never was any shortage of money in the Fianna Fáil Party. There never was a shortage of money to deal with the problems when they were on this side of the House. Indeed, these benches were always awash with crocodile tears of what should be done. A sum of £5 million was floating around the west before the European elections to sort out all the problems. I am sure the magic wand can be waved again. The Minister for Energy, Deputy Molloy, thanks to the good Lord, has saved the country £300 million out of the holy mountain.

Unfortunately, we do not all have holy wells.

That is stroke politics by an ex-Fianna Fáil Minister. He did not even tell his own party——

The Deputy is straying very far from the subject matter of this debate. I must dissuade Members from making Second Reading speeches.

The Deputy needs a sprinkling of Holy Water.

I shall have to insist on the Deputy confining his remarks henceforth to the subject matter of this amendment.

I am approaching the point rapidly because I am sure the Minister, Deputy Reynolds, is going to give a very evasive reply to this clear statistic.

He would not do that.

I would like to think the contributions from Members of the Opposition and the Government parties would be addressed by the Minister, Deputy Reynolds, and that the farmers and their wives — husband and wife teams on the small farms — will be able to say the Minister from the midlands delivered in this case and they can remember him with thanks for sorting out an anomaly before it left the floor of the House.

And erect a headstone and say he was a decent fellow.

I support this amendment and I will explain why I did not put down this amendment myself. It was not that I did not think of it, but simply that I approached it from a different point of view. I had an amendment down which was ruled out of order; it was to abolish PAYE and PRSI allowances altogether for everybody whether employed or unemployed——

(Interruptions.)

——the good news is coming — and to bring back earned income relief. That is going a long way back. For some reason about 15 years ago some benighted Minister for Finance gave that a knock on the head. That was a very good relief. Unfortunately, my amendment went out with the shower before the recess.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): A thundery one.

The Minister should consider that. A long way back our tax code differentiated between earned income whether from employment or self-employment on the one hand, and unearned income, dividends, rents and so on, on the other. This seemed a fair, logical and equitable distinction but it went by the board. If that were put back, earned income relief would be applicable to employers, farmers and the self-employed. In the absence of something like that I will support Deputy Noonan's amendment.

This Government and the previous Government have been consistently anti-self-employment, anti-farmer. We had the first example of that in the Finance Act, 1987, when they brought in withholding tax on professional fees, a very blunt instrument to deal with professional people who were discriminated against because they were seen to earn excessive fees. If they were earning excessive fees, there was a way to deal with that. The way to deal with it was not to use unfair sections in the Finance Act, 1987, to penalise them. I had an amendment down on that which was also lost.

I commend this amendment and I hope Deputy Noonan will insist on the amendment being put to a vote.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I will follow your advice, Sir, about not making a Second Stage speech. When I made my Second Stage speech I mentioned equality in taxation. We have inequality at the moment. If we bring everybody into the tax net on the same basis, that they are paying on the year of earning, we must treat them all in the same way. I do not want to repeat what has been said, but the Minister cannot have it two ways. He cannot have them paying tax on the current year and at the same time treat them differently. In his reply on Second Stage he went on to — I will not say “waffle” because that would be unfair to him——

It is something you eat.

(Carlow-Kilkenny):——but he went on to explain that they were not really up to date but were 90 per cent. They are either paying on the current year or not, and if they are paying they should get the same treatment as PAYE workers.

I also have been lobbied, by the ICMSA in particular, on this question and I have some sympathy with the points raised. However, I look forward to hearing the Minister's response. There are some perceptions abroad on this question, and in the absence of any other body raising them I want to advert to the broader question. I have some regard for the ICMSA. That organisation has a more acceptable track record on the question of taxation than some others and in their heartland at least, they largely represent farmers who are productive, which, with all due respect to Deputy Connaughton, I would not say about all farmers. As Deputy Ferris said, there is much to be said for the idea, regrettably now defunct, of a land tax, which was an inducement to production. It is a pity it died.

Many people have to live on the same land.

Looking at the equity of what is proposed here, I feel a little like Deputy Noonan earlier today. He recognised the impeccable logic of the arguments from these benches but felt that when the resources will be made available the issues raised can be tackled. Deputy Noonan performed effortlessly all day when we were dealing with questions of tax, the PAYE worker and all the rest. I am extremely impressed at the back up who have come in at this late hour to assist him. Far from what Deputy Connaughton says about the farming lobby being neglected and disgracefully treated by Dáil Éireann, I think the farming lobby are exceptionally well represented. I am not complaining about that. If the lobby can convince me of the equity of the argument, I am disposed to supporting Deputy Noonan's amendment, but it is not correct to refer to the origins of this allowance, as Deputy McCreevy did, as being due to the hullabaloo of 1980. The hullabaloo of 1980 came from three quarters of a million people who were largely the only people paying income tax and the only people paying it on a current year basis. The concession of the PAYE allowance was as much to buy off that head of steam as it was to deal with the discrepancy between the current years and the previous year's assessments. Manifestly the PAYE sector were disproportionately bearing the burden of taxation and were being unfairly treated. There is no argument about that. The PAYE allowance was some concession to that. It was not just a hullabaloo, it was a fundamental issue of equity. The perception at the time was that most farmers were paying no tax and the remainder of the farming community were paying only what they had to.

I accept that the situation has changed, although the figures the Minister gave in his Second Stage summary are worth drawing attention to again. Of all tax, 88.8 per cent is paid by PAYE workers and 1.9 per cent by farmers, or, to take the Minister's breakdown on average, he told us this morning that the average PAYE worker was contributing £3,080 and the average farmer was contributing £714. You can prove anything with figures, and this is a question of perception.

I represent an urban constituency and the perception among PAYE workers in it is that they do not have any routes open to them to escape liability under the PAYE system. The tax is deducted from their pay and that is it. The perception is that there are mechanisms open to the farming community that are not open to the PAYE sector.

The Minister referred to the fact that farmers can average their income over three years, to the fact that there is a certain element of stock relief. There is the perception that generally speaking in terms of declaring income there is some latitude open to the farming community while the same does not apply to those in the PAYE sector. It is important that that view is highlighted in the House. The PAYE sector are still bearing 88.8 per cent of the tax burden and the only argument among Members is when we can give some relief to those people. All Members admit that they bear an unfair and excessive burden. How much relief can we give? It is a question of choice.

I do not wish to be sarcastic about the Fine Gael muster on this issue; they represent their constituents and are perfectly entitled to put their point of view but I should like to refer to the debate that took place this morning with Deputies Noonan, Taylor and myself in which we were trying to convince the Minister to use tax reform to take people out of the poverty trap. We were trying to establish threshholds below which tax would not apply. We were making the point that up to 18 per cent of the people caught in the poverty trap are taxed under the PAYE system and liable for PRSI. We were trying to establish a threshhold of £100 per week which one could earn before being liable for tax.

There are thousands of small farmers who do not earn £100 per week.

I will deal with that issue later. The point I am anxious to make is that there are thousands of people in the poverty trap who are on low wages, who pay tax under the PAYE system and are liable for PRSI. There was not the manifest support for that——

The Deputy should return to the amendment before the House.

I will, but I respectfully submit that one cannot discuss the tax code in isolation.

The Chair has allowed a lot of latitude.

I accept that. We have only a certain amount of resources to spread around and choices have to be made as to who should benefit. As Deputy Noonan is likely to point out, if some farmers are evading or avoiding tax liability it does not mean that those who are paying should be punished. I accept the logic of that argument. I also accept that if farmers are paying PRSI at roughly the same rate as those in the PAYE sector it ought to be taken into account and that the same relief should apply. However, I retain my position on the question of giving the same PAYE concession until I am satisfied that we are treating like with like. The situation is comparable notwithstanding the fact that the system is being changed to a current accounting basis.

I accept the argument put forward by Deputy Ferris in favour of the family farm with a relatively small acreage where all shoulders must be put to the wheel to make a living. There is a logic in that argument. However, in fairness to the people I represent, I must state that there is a perception that there is still open to the farming community a method of limiting their tax liability that is not available to the PAYE sector.

I should like to support Deputy Noonan's amendment which I consider to be significant. I was interested to hear what Deputy Rabbitte had to say about the amendment. I appreciate what he has said about the PAYE sector, a case that has already been put by Deputy Noonan but, being a native of the west of Ireland he should appreciate the problems faced by small farmers there. Many small farmers are in difficulties and the granting of the PAYE allowance to them would be significant. The Minister should bear in mind that we are into a new ball game in that assessment will be on the current year rather than retrospectively. Farmers will not have the retrospective advantage that they had heretofore. On those grounds there is a need to give farmers the same concession that applies to the PAYE sector.

It would be unwise of the Minister not to accept our amendment, or at least to indicate that he will introduce a similar amendment on Report Stage. If he does not accept our amendment it is likely that the issue will be challenged in the courts. If the courts decide that this is unconstitutional I would not like to be the Minister for Finance. I suggest to the Minister that he bear that in mind. We are talking about natural justice, equity and fair play. How can the Minister justify discriminating against one section of the community? It is not sufficient to tell us that it will cost the Exchequer a lot of money to implement the terms of our amendment. The Minister should bear in mind that many people, small farmers in particular, are finding it difficult to survive on their holdings and retain a son or daughter to work with them. The Minister has an opportunity to keep more people on the land and he should make use of it. The Minister should consider the social implications of the amendment. If he is not prepared to accept our amendment tonight, he should give an indication of his intention to introduce a similar amendment on Report Stage.

I should like to place on record my support for Deputy Noonan's amendment. I referred to this point in the course of my Second Stage contribution. A Finance Bill should be an opportunity for a Minister for Finance to move towards greater equity in our taxation system. While I welcome the introduction of the current year assessment for farmers and the self-employed, it is my view that positive aspects of this have been ruined by the fact that the Minister did not balance it by extending the PAYE and PRSI allowances to those people. The reason the PAYE allowance was first introduced was to compensate for the fact that they were the only section being dealt with on a current year assessment.

In bringing farmers and the self-employed into current year assessment the Minister was obliged, in the interests of equity and fair play, to extend the PAYE and PRSI allowances to them. We have heard a lot about people in the PAYE sector being in the poverty trap but several thousand farmers are in the poverty trap. They have to pay income tax but they will not have the benefit of the PAYE and PRSI allowances. The Minister should bear that in mind. Farming organisations are justified in believing that they are being discriminated against in the Bill. Farmers are being treated unjustly and unfairly.

In the interests of equity and fair play, the Minister should extend the allowances to the farming community and the self-employed. I do not see how the Minister can justify discriminating against one section of the community. If our taxation system is to be progressive it must be based on fairness and equality. Farmers and the self-employed are discriminated against in this section of the Bill and I hope that the Minister will rectify this on Report Stage.

Some people have not done their sums correctly if they imply that I have gone out of my way to penalise farmers compared to other sections of the community. The farmers, from the point of view of taxation, will be no worse off by the introduction of this——

Convince me.

The Deputy wants to introduce a PAYE-PRSI allowance for farmers. However, I will explain to the House so the Deputies will understand exactly what I am talking about. This was not cobbled together in a hurry. Deputy Dukes in 1983 was the first to announce the introduction of a current year assessment. I do not know what happened in the meantime. Perhaps, as Deputy Mitchell said earlier, that Government could not get the Department of Finance to fall in with their wishes.

The purpose of the amendment is to extend the PAYE-PRSI allowance, where the full self-employed contribution is paid, to those taxpayers now on a current year basis of assessment. I would like to make it clear that the PAYE allowance is — and always has been — viewed as an allowance for employed taxpayers, those who pay weekly, fortnightly or monthly, and who, generally speaking, discharge their entire tax liability within the year of assessment. The primary reason for the introduction of the allowance was to improve the tax progression for PAYE taxpayers. Notwithstanding the change to a current year basis, it is my view that this consideration is still valid.

The figures for the average tax payments made by the PAYE sector, farmers and other Schedule D sectors in 1980 — the year in which the PAYE allowance was introduced — indicate that the income tax system still bears more heavily on PAYE taxpayers than other sectors. I already referred to the figures in the debate tonight and I will repeat them. In 1980 the average PAYE taxpayer paid about £1,130 and in 1989-90 that figure rose to £3,080. In 1980 farmers paid an average of £597 per head and in 1989-90 the figure rose to £714. In 1980 the other Schedule D people paid £889, a figure which rose to £2,786 in 1989-90. It is quite clear that you cannot differentiate between one area of self-employed and another although some people seem to think I should do so. Somebody raised the question about its constitutionality. The best legal advice has been taken in this regard and the Government have no worries in that regard.

The major beneficiaries of the extension of the PAYE allowance proposed in the amendment are self-employed taxpayers. However, as I stated during the Second Stage debate in the Dáil, notwithstanding the change to a current year basis for the self-employed and certain other taxpayers, important differences will still remain between the income tax regime for PAYE and self-employed taxpayers. It is worthwhile to identify at this stage the main differences.

The self-employed will in general still not be taxed on a current year basis, unlike taxpayers on PAYE. They will be taxed on the profits of their accounts ending in the current tax year. Those who have accounting periods ending early in the tax year will effectively remain on a preceding year tax basis. The tax payment arrangements will continue to be different. Persons on PAYE will satisfy their full tax liability for the year by the end of the tax year.

By contrast, under the new arrangements, self-employed taxpayers need only pay at the end of the tax year either 90 per cent of their current liability or the full amount of their liability for the previous year. The balance will not be due until close to the end of the following tax year.

Farmers have further advantages, including the right to stock relief, which is not available to the PAYE sector. A case could be made for other categories of income now being placed on a current year basis, mainly investment and rental income. Regarding investment income, over the years the income tax code has felt it appropriate to distinguish between the taxation regimes applicable to earned and unearned incomes. Moreover, the tax allowance does not apply to investment income already chargeable on a current year basis. With regard to the recipients of rental income, it should be noted that these taxpayers enjoy the same liberal expenses regime as self-employed taxpayers who are taxed under Case I or II of Schedule D.

I know that most people who spoke do not want to hear the cost of the extension of the PAYE allowance. This allowance could not be confined to the self-employed; it would have to be granted to proprietary directors who, although on PAYE, are not entitled to the allowance. In these circumstances the full year cost to the Exchequer would be almost £85 million. The overall effect would be a major reduction in the tax burden of the self-employed and farmers. In this regard, it was useful to draw the attention of the Deputies — as I did earlier today — to the various percentages paid by different categories.

With regard to the PRSI allowance, the switch to a current year basis does not affect the PRSI rate levied on the self-employer, the employee element of which is well below that paid by the full rate PAYE workers. The employee element in the self-employed contribution rate is 1.8 per cent for 1990-91 which compares to the employee main rate of 5.5 per cent to which the PRSI allowance relates. I should point out in this context that other groups, such as public servants, who do not pay the full employee rate, do not qualify for the PRSI allowance. When we talk about one category we must also look at others. The cost of granting the PRSI allowance in a full year would be approximately £33 million.

I discussed this current year basis with various bodies including the Institute of Taxation and accountants with farming organisations have made representations to me. I also met members of the ICMSA in my own county and we are certainly not unaware of the arguments being made. The treatment of the farming community in this year's budget cannot be ignored. Last year there was a decent increase in the refund of VAT — up to 2 per cent — and this year it is up to 2.3 per cent. There was a problem in restocking in relation to disease eradication and there was a clawback of stock relief which I extended to two years. I have always been pragamatic in my dealings with the farming community but it must be noted that they can avail of stock relief and averaging their income. If we want to talk about equity, are the self-employed prepared to give up their liberal regime in relation to writing off expenses, stock relief and averaging of accounts? That is the only way we will achieve equity. Deputy Connaughton may shake his head but that is the reality.

The Minister has the wrong end of the stick.

I deal with all groups in the tax code. There was a reference to land tax which is a dormant feature. I do not want to keep repeating that the system of taxation in relation to farmers has changed so many times. It takes a long time for any system to settle down and for the Revenue Commissioners to come to grips with it. This Government decided they would operate on the basis of accounts for a period of five years and examine that position thereafter. This means that, if one makes a profit, one pays and, if one does not make a profit, then one does not pay.

One of the major problems I saw with regard to the land tax was that the fundamental principle of any taxation must be the liability to pay which should be taken into account. Ability to pay vis-à-vis the land tax, was not taken into account. One can argue that there are certain attendant benefits but a fundamental principle of any taxation system should be ability to pay. With regard to the land tax there could be one farmer, married with four or five children, with heavy commitments, having borrowed a lot of money, a progressive farmer doing up his place; let us say he has 80 acres and is engaged in intensive dairy farming. Then there may be another fellow engaged in intensive farming in another part of the country, without any borrowings, with, say 80 acres. Therefore, at £10 an acre we charge each £800. The fellow engaged in intensive dairying, if he is sufficiently good, could be making any figure one can think of.

He would not be making much this year.

We know that certain areas of agriculture are yielding reduced profits this year. Let us take the year 1989 as an example. I do not know what the whole year will turn up but this will not be as good a year as last year; I accept that. That farmer could be earning a net £30,000 or £40,000 and I am not going over the top in so saying.

On a 60 acre farm?

Are Deputies suggesting to me that £800 per annum is all the tax he should contribute to the Exchequer? I do not accept that as being a fair share of taxation. I am a rural person myself. I have said to the various farming organisations, as I met them, that I do not accept that as being a fair share of taxation. There may be a system in between that will derive better production from the land. This Government have decided that farmers pay on their accounts as they make money over a five-year period and the position will be reviewed thereafter. Whether Deputies like to think about it or not, it amounts to approximately £130 million return in a year. But Deputies must face up to all the other areas. Deputies should not contend that there are not discrepancies obtaining or that there are not things enjoyed by one section of the community that cannot be enjoyed by another.

Deputy Garland referred to the earned income relief abolished in 1974. At least Deputy Garland tabled a whole dose of amendments, pluses and minuses, many of which were out of order. Anyway I will tell him what is the bottom line: the reinstatement of his earned income relief would cost in the region of £475 million in a full year. Therefore, with all the pluses and minuses he is about £389.95 million short in offsetting one against the other.

(Interruptions.)

At least one would have to say he took courage in both hands and tabled those amendments. That is the reality.

Deputy Taylor says it has to do with the green £.

Perhaps it has. Deputy Rabbitte comes from Mayo; he understands the rural community just as I do. Anyway it was abolished in 1974. Introduced at that time was a uniform system of personal taxation and the abolition of surtax. There were a whole lot of changes effected at that time.

I think I have dealt with all the problems raised. I might give the House another example of comparisons to be added to the already long list they have been endeavouring to make all day. It boils down to a question of how much money is there to go around, what choices one makes, what are one's priorities and what equity one attaches to them. As far as I am concerned, as Minister for Finance I approach it with a fair and open mind. I have done that in relation to taxation in my two budgets. If anybody expected me to solve all the inequities obtaining in the system of taxation in two budgets they had another guess coming to them. It is just not possible and any reasonable, common sense person will have realised it is just not possible. I began on the basis of getting to the low paid, low-income earners first. When I hear Deputies representing certain parts of the country standing up over there saying: "we know, we want the small farmers fairly treated". I should say we all know what is the average income of the small farmer around the country. We know the figure produced by the various farming organisations.

(Interruptions.)

For a long time I read that his average income was approximately £5,500 to £6,000 per annum. Perhaps it is now £7,000 to £8,000. I asked my officials to ascertain the figure.

Where did the Minister get the figure of £30,000?

If Deputies will wait for a moment——

I think the farmers, whether they be big or small, are entitled to a less — I was going to say — ignorant presentation of their case.

That is what I am saying.

I object to that.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

I object to that statement, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

You will resume your seat, Deputy Connaughton. Deputy Connaughton is the main culprit. I was here earlier when spokespersons and contributors made their points in a fashion that was in accordance with the best standards of this House. Since I came in here Deputy Connaughton has indulged in a series of interruptions that cannot be regarded as of a very high standard.

I object strongly to the use of the term "ignorant". I object strongly to that.

The Deputy is entitled to object.

I want to place my objection on the record.

And the Deputy——

The Deputy is not entitled to that appellation.

Deputy Connor, some day, please God, you will be in this Chair and you can interpret the position as you think fit——

Well, it is very easy——

——and I am saying to you now that I will not take any interruptions from you, either. I will take no interruption on the matter of words from you either. Please allow the Minister to continue.

I am entitled to make a point, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

(Limerick East): On a point of order——

Deputy Noonan, on a point of order.

(Limerick East): On a point of order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, would you tell us under which Standing Order you are entitled to make qualitative comments on the contributions of Deputies?

I will do no such thing. I am not obliged to explain my use of words to you, or to anybody else. You indicate to me under which Standing Order I should not use the word "ignorant" and I will do it for you.

(Limerick East): Under which Standing Order are you entitled to insult Deputies when they make a contribution?

If the Deputy feels that a Deputy has been insulted well, then, let the Deputy so indicate and I will demonstrate to him the use of the word "ignorant"— based as it is in Latin, as the Deputy knows — means not knowing the correct procedure. Interruption derives from a Deputy not knowing that Standing Orders do not permit him to interrupt. That is the definition of "ignorant" which I use.

(Limerick East): A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you and I, the Minister for the Marine and others who had a classical education realise you were speaking in the narrow sense but the word also has a colloquial sense which is quite insulting. You used the word in the narrow sense——

"Igno-sco”— the Deputy should know what it means and the Deputy knows also what narrow means as against broad. That is the meaning.

Are you withdrawing the remark, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

(Interruptions.)

If Deputy Taylor-Quinn is inviting me to comment I will be asking her to resume her seat.

On a point of information, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you did impute in your remarks that Deputies on this side of the House were ignorant. Could we ask you to withdraw the word "ignorant"?

The Deputy in her time will have taken lessons in logic so that if one says to one Deputy that he is ignorant, it does not follow that all Deputies are.

(Interruptions.)

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I object to being called "ignorant" in this House.

Yes, I said that and the Deputy is entitled to object. I told him he is entitled to object.

I would expect better from you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

Of course you would.

——because normally you are very fair. But you are the first person in the Chair who ever said that to me in ten years in this House. I strongly object to it.

Let us settle it. I referred to the quality of interruption in the fashion I did. That is how I feel about it. I think I have explained to Deputy Noonan who accepts that, with some limits, the word was not out of order. The Minister, to continue.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, obviously you did insult Deputy Connaughton by your remarks. Would you please now withdraw them because the rest of us here feel, as does Deputy Connaughton, that he was deeply insulted? We are as well, because we are sitting on this side of the House.

Look, I would not deprive you, Deputy Cotter, of your sensitivities on any matter but you are not going to transfer yours to me. The Minister, without interruption.

This is unprecedented behaviour.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tuigeann tú cothrom na Féinne——

(Carlow-Kilkenny):——a rá go bhfuil brón ort gur ghlac sé an míniú sin as. I think he took a meaning out of it you may not have intended but, in fairness, we would all take the same meaning as he did.

Fanfaidh mé leis an Ghaeilge, Tuigeann tú an focal i nGaeilge "aineolach". Bhí mé ag cur síos ar an chaoi in a raibh an Teachta ag cur isteach. Ní raibh mé ag cur síos air féin. An tAire chun leanúint gan cur isteach.

I wish to support Deputy Connaughton. It seems that you implied that the presentation was ignorant. I hope you did not infer that the Deputy or any other Deputy in this House is in any way ignorant.

I never referred to any Deputy in this House in a personal fashion. I referred to his continuous interruptions as being lacking in the knowledge of the Standing Orders and that aptly describes them. When the Deputy sees the Official Report I am sure he will get the literary evidence that Deputy Kenny would like to have.

Do you understand the implications of that?

(Interruptions.)

The Minister to continue without interruption of any kind.

Let us return to the——

Would the Minister inform us what constitutes small farmer's income?

Have we some in Dublin 4 also? As the Deputy has raised the question of small farmer's income, I will deal with it. The latest figures to be published indicate — and I am open to correction on this point as we do not have the exact figures with us — that the income of a small farmer with a wife and family is in excess of £7,000. In drafting this Bill I had the same regard for small farmers as I had for those in receipt of low incomes and the small shop-keeper on the corner as they are at the lower end of the scale. I listened to this argument being made time and again in this House but no one did anything about it.

We have introduced exemption limits, including an allowance of £300 per child, with the result that a small farmer married with four or five children and an income of £7,200 will not have to pay tax. If his income is above this figure by a few hundred pounds he will pay tax at the marginal rate. I do not believe there are any small farmers in that bracket. The national statistics, which I have examined very carefully as I do not easily walk away from the need to look at every category, indicate that 29,000 farmers are paying tax. The small farmers I represent are not in the tax net because of the exemption limits.

They have to pay £500 to have their books audited.

Those farmers making money pay tax and those who are not, do not.

They have to pay their accountants.

They do not have to pay accountants. I have filled up forms in my own office in five minutes. Each time that argument is made I ask the Deputy, who is spokesperson on agriculture on the other side of the House, to the ICMSA and the IFA to produce the evidence and point out where the system is in any way complicated and I will simplify it. They have indicated areas and I have simplified them and will continue to do so. No such complaints have been made in recent times and I wish to point out that they do not need to go to accountants——

I am saying they do not have to. Let us adopt a simplistic approach and I will do everything I can to help them. The reality is that 29,000 farmers are paying tax. It has been pointed out that farmers have to pay out £500 for a farmer's profile but I have just been informed that these have been simplified. Therefore if the Deputies have any more complaints to make, let us hear them.

The Minister is not living in the real world.

In this debate there have been calls for additional reliefs on the grounds of equity. I am disappointed that such claims are being tagged on to the proposal to tax the self-employed on a current year basis, which is a well balanced administrative adjustment in the taxation system which has been designed to make things easier for taxpayers and their advisers and to reduce the amount of contact needed with Revenue officials. The simple facts are if I had not brought forward these proposals it is estimated that the sector concerned would pay income tax in 1990 amounting to £279 million. Under these proposals it is estimated that the yield will be £290 million, which represents a modest increase of £11 million. In contrast, I have been asked during the course of this debate, in return for this modest increase of £11 million, to reduce the contribution of that sector by £260 million. Such a proposal can only be described as extraordinary and suggests, as I indicated at the outset, a distorted view of equity and a lack of understanding on what this system is all about. Taxation on a current year basis represents an administrative adjustment in the taxation system which has been designed to make things easier for all taxpayers. As I indicated at the outset, under this system farmers will not pay any more taxation.

(Limerick East): The latter stages of this debate and the Minister's reply have generated far more heat than light. I wish to press the amendment and would like you to put the question, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Before you put the question, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with the support of the House I hope we can make a slight adjustment which may save us an awful lot of trouble. I would like to inform the House that the reference to the Údarás na Gaeltachta Act, 1970, in amendment No. 41 in my name which was deemed to have been passed earlier, should have read Údarás na Gaeltachta Act, 1979. If the House is agreeable, the Bill as passed in Committee will show the correct reference.

This is noted and agreed.

I did not reply to Deputy McCreevy who asked me to look at a matter before next year's budget. I will certainly do that but every budget has to stand on its own.

I recognise this amendment is very broad and fails to address the problems facing family farms where at least two members of the family are required to contribute to the income of the family. An anomaly exists and I accept the arguments the Minister made. In many family farms the spouse is expected to contribute to the family income. Can this spouse not be treated in the same way as every other spouse? It is quite possible that she may jointly own the farm and I appeal to the Minister to look at this matter. I accept all the arguments he has made, which I admit are valid, but the other argument also stands and should not be clouded by employers in the private sector. I appeal once again to the Minister to eliminate this anomaly. No one expects miracles but I ask the Minister to appreciate that people are concerned about this matter.

Amendment put.
The Committee Divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 70.

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Garland, Roger.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kennelly, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin, Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy.
Amendment declared lost.

May I draw your attention, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to the fact that there were 23 amendments in this chapter and a considerable number of very important sections of the Finance Bill, 1990? There are now 15 minutes left of the time allocated and only one amendment has been dealt with. No section has been dealt with. I submit, Sir, that it is an unacceptable and intolerable situation that the House should be asked to deal with this business in that manner.

Deputy Taylor appreciates that we are carrying out the Order as agreed by the House. Naturally, Deputies may feel frustrated by it but we must carry out the order. We will now proceed with the business as ordered.

May I briefly concur with the views of Deputy Taylor in this matter?

This will be noted.

Sections 10 and 11 agreed to.
SECTION 12.

I move amendment No. 50:

In page 18, subsection (2) (a), line 25, to delete "1988" and substitute "1989".

Section 12 (2) established in paragraph (a) that the provisions of subsection (3) — the relieving provision which provides for averaging where the income for 1990 exceeds the income of 1989-90 by 50 per cent or more — can only apply where "the trade or profession was set up and commenced before the 6th day of April 1988". It has now been pointed out that denying relief where a trade or profession was set up during the year ended 5 April 1989 could be inequitable in certain circumstances.

In a case where commencement occurred during the year ended 5 April 1989, the "old" basis of assessment operated as follows in the year 1988-89 it was on the actual basis, in 1989-90 it was on the basis of the first 12 months and in 1990-91 it was on a preceding year.

The essential point is that the basis of assessment for the tax year 1990-91 was a 12 month accounting period ended in the preceding year just as with ongoing traders who can qualify for the transitional relief.

The transitional relief was introduced to provide for cases where the profits of a basis period which falls to be disregarded are exceeded by 50 per cent or more by the profits of the new basis period. This can occur in the tax year 1990-91 in cases where the trade or profession commenced during the year ended 5 April 1989. However transitional relief is not available to a taxpayer who commenced during that year although he would be taxed on the same basis period as others in 1990-91.

Accordingly, I have decided to bring forward the amendment to alter the reference in section 12 (2) (a) to "1988" to "1989" and thereby enable traders who commence in the year 1988-89 and who met the conditions to qualify for the relief.

I concur with Deputies Taylor and Rabbitte in their remarks about having to conclude and we will have to conclude Chapter II of the Finance Bill by 10.30 p.m.

——and Chapter III.

Chapter II is a major innovative step taken by the Minister for Finance and the Revenue Commissioners and it is a terrible pity that this entire section must be dealt with in the next ten minutes. There must be a better way of ordering the business of this House, either by a sub-committee or whatever. I know the Minister for Finance will be glad to get home but I am sure he is not satisfied with this either. This Chapter of the Finance Bill deals with the new arrangement changing the basis of assessment.

At the outset I would congratulate the people in the Revenue Commissioners who played a part in the drafting of this Bill. I, as an accountant, as well as other accountants, have heard many crazy ideas in regard to the changes in the basis of assessment. Perhaps it is a little technical for people who do not practice this business but for those of us in the business what we have heard is a little nightmarish. This provision is a great step forward and will make this a lot easier for practitioners, inspectors of taxes and so on, because it will allow the Revenue Commissioners to accept one single income tax return. The self-assessment system which was introduced some years ago was a progressive step but unfortunately for people with two incomes, perhaps a PAYE income and also income from a business, it meant that a file had to be opened by the practitioner when the P60 was returned and the Revenue Commissioners or the inspector of taxes also had to open a file. This was negativing the great leap forward in regard to the single basis of taxation.

There are various ways in which the current year basis of assessment could be operated. I have met people in the Revenue Commissioners and, having considered the matter, their proposal is very enlightening. It shows that all the people in the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners are not living, like some civil servants, in a separate world. As someone who has had negotiations with these people over the years, I am delighted with the change they have made here and I think it will work out very well.

There are certain provisions in Chapter II with which I do not agree. One of these is in section 12 which includes the transitional provisions that will apply in certain circumstances. From the tax year 1990-91 people will be assessed on a current year basis. Previously, a self-employed person taxed on a calendar year basis was taxed in the year 1990-91 on the basis of his profits for the year ended 31 December 1989 but under the new provision the current year will be regarded as the basis of assessment. I advised the Minister privately some weeks ago that it is unlikely that there will be a windfall from the self-employed this year as a result of some of the changes being made here, for various reasons which I will not go into now. The Revenue Commissioners envisage a very small increase in income tax from the self-employed — only £11 million, from £279 million to £290 million. One of the reasons relates to this changeover but I will not bore people with the details now.

There is an anomaly in section 12 and I would like the Minister to consider this matter before Report Stage. For example, if in the year ending 31 December 1989 a self-employed taxpayer made £10,000, previously that is the income he would be assessed on for the year 1990-91 but under the new provision he will be assessed on his income for the calendar year ending 31 December 1990. If he makes £14,000 in that year he will pay tax for the year 1990-91 on the £14,000 but under the transitional provisions the position would be different. For example, another person makes £10,000 in the year ending 31 December 1989 but in the calendar year ending 31 December 1990 he makes £15,000 which, under the new provision, he will be assessed on. I accept what the Revenue Commissioners are trying to do here but it seems very unfair that because the profits for the year 1990-91 are 50 per cent or more greater than the profits for the year 1989, he could be taxed on the basis of the average of the two years. Therefore, taxpayer B has the option of being taxed on £12,500 in the tax year 1991 whereas taxpayer A, whose profits over the two years are £24,000, will be taxed on £14,000 for the year 1991.

I recognise the purpose of this provision. I see one individual on the civil servant benches who worked in Schedule D districts and will know exactly what I am talking about. These transitional provisions are very fair and I agree with the principle behind them but anomalies such as I have mentioned will arise. I would ask the Minister and his officials to consider, before Report Stage, giving the taxpayer the option of paying tax on the average income at all times if he so wishes or, alternatively, doing away with the 50 per cent provision. The reason taxpayer A cannot be taxed on the average income is that he has not made 50 per cent more in the second year. This is an anomaly which should be corrected.

I will consider that matter between now and Report Stage with a view to bringing in some provision on a marginal relief basis to address the problem.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 51:

In page 19, subsection (4), line 1, to delete "section 17” and substitute “section 16”.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 12, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 13 to 15, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 16.

I move amendment No. 52:

In page 23, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following subsection:

"(4) (a) In this subsection—

`deficiency' means a deficiency computed in accordance with subsection (4) of section 81 of the Income Tax Act, 1967;

`excepted premises' means a premises other than a qualifying premises;

`qualifying expenditure' means expenditure which would, but for the provisions of this Chapter, qualify for relief under any of the specified sections;

`qualifying premises' means a premises or building in respect of which any of the specified sections apply;

`specified sections' means—

(i) sections 23 and 24 of the Finance Act, 1981,

(ii) sections 21 and 22 of the Finance Act, 1985, and

(iii) sections 43 and 44 of the Finance Act, 1986;

`surplus' means a surplus computed in accordance with subsection (4) of section 81 of the Income Tax Act, 1967.

(b) Where a person, who is within the charge to income tax, has incurred qualifying expenditure in the year 1989-90, the provisions of section 89 of the Income Tax Act, 1967, as they apply for the year 1989-90, shall have effect in relation to a deficiency in respect of rent from a qualifying premises as if the other provisions of this Chapter had not been enacted and no surplus from excepted premises arose in the year 1989-90:

Provided that where the person is chargeable under Case V for the year 1989-90 on the basis of the profits or gains arising in that year, the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply or have effect.".

(Limerick East): Could the Minister explain this amendment?

In a moment.

I would like to thank the Minister for considering my request on this section. Under section 14 people who had invested in section 23 property would not have received relief for expenditure incurred and therefore this amendment is most welcome and just. I would also like to refer to the housekeeper's allowance which was referred to earlier by Deputy Rabbitte. In keeping with the social philosophy of our party, I hope the Minister will consider introducing an amendment along this line on Report Stage.

There was some retrospection on that amendment.

For the benefit of the House, this amendment is about the section 23 relief which, as we know, relates to the construction of residential housing. In general, the current year basis will not affect the operation of the relief but in certain limited circumstances payments made during 1989-90 in expectation of the relief would not be relieved. Therefore, I have decided to remedy this by introducing this amendment. The effect will be to allow relief for the 1989-90 section 23 payments against the 1989-90 assessment. If the amount of the 1989-90 assessment is less then the deduction to be allowed, the balance will be available for set off against the year 1991 and subsequent years of assessment. Because it is a special relief it had to be dealt with in this manner.

Amendment agreed to.

It is now 10.30 p.m. and I must put the question: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance in Chapters II and III of Part I of the Bill and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill and in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in the said Chapters that the section, or as appropriate the section, as amended, is hereby agreed to."

The Committee divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 63.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Bruke, Raphael P.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.
Question declared carried.
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