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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Nov 1990

Vol. 403 No. 3

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Tallaght (Dublin) Hospital.

Pat Rabbitte

Question:

4 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Health if he will outline in relation to the Tallaght Hospital, Dublin 24: (1) the expected timetable for construction, (2) the expected date of opening and whether all facilities will become available on that date, (3) the steps he has taken to ensure that the building contractor employs a reasonable proportion of local trade union workers on site and (4) whether he has agreed with the Board of the Adelaide Hospital, Dublin 8, on the carrying out of all the legal procedures now available there at the Tallaght Hospital.

Ivan Yates

Question:

73 Mr. Yates asked the Minister for Health the up-to-date position in relation to the construction of the new Tallaght Hospital, Dublin 24, with particular reference to the issuing of tender forms to the chosen contractors; if adequate finance has been made available for the construction programme as originally planned; and if he will set out the timetable for the construction of this hospital.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 73 together.

The Tallaght Hospital project is at a very advanced stage in the planning process and the Tallaght Hospital Board have recently submitted a list of selected tenderers for approval by my Department. This list is currently being considered in the Department.

The question of allocating funds to enable a start to be made on the project will be considered in the context of the capital funds available to my Department in 1991. The construction period for the project is estimated at four years. The expected date of opening and the extent to which the new facilities will be available on that date will depend on several factors which are difficult to predict at this stage. On average, however, equiping and commissioning of a hospital project of this size would take 18 months after the completion of the building work.

The specifications for the contract for this building project will include a "local labour" clause as follows:

Persons engaged upon the works should in so far as is practicable and without affecting the efficiency of the work be recruited from the local offices of the National Manpower Service to the extent that the total labour requirement of the contract exceeds the contractor's core workforce.

In relation to the medical procedures which will be available at the hospital, I have already given an assurance on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government in statements made to the Seanad and in this House and elsewhere that 40 places will be reserved for training nurses from the Adelaide tradition and that all medical procedures now available at the Adelaide will also be available at Tallaght.

Do I understand from the Minister's reply that, if tenders have not yet been accepted, the construction period is four years and the opening would not be likely to take place until 18 months later, the scheduled date we have been working on for the opening of the hospital in Tallaght is likely to be delayed? Has he had recent meetings with the board of the Adelaide Hospital? Has he agreed with them the management procedures for the Tallaght Hospital, and specifically the medical procedures referred to in the question? Are they satisfied with the agreement?

Tenders are being studied in my Department and the Deputy is correct in saying that no tender has been selected to date. Regarding the management of Tallaght Hospital, the Deputy will also be aware that I met representatives of the board of each of the three hospitals which are moving to Tallaght. They agreed to meet with an independent chairman and to come back to me with agreed proposals from the management of Tallaght Hospital.

Do I take it that, despite the assurance he gave me on an Adjournment debate on 31 May that he would be meeting the board of the Tallaght Hospital "in the near future", no meeting has in fact, taken place since then? Do I take it also that there is no agreement with the board of the Adelaide Hospital concerning assurances to them that the particular ethos of that hospital and its tradition would be continued at Tallaght?

I have had a number of meetings with representatives of the boards of the Adelaide Hospital, the Meath Hospital and the National Children's Hospital. I assured the Seanad, when I spoke there, and also Deputy Rabbitte here and the representatives of the board of the Adelaide Hospital that, so far as I was concerned, the ethos and the procedures practised in the Adelaide Hospital would be maintained in Tallaght. I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that, with the best will in the world, the three hospitals must agree among themselves about the particular character and ethos of the hospital in Tallaght. I gave a guarantee to the Adelaide Hospital that the procedures then in place would continue and that the management of the hospital would continue the traditions and ethos of the Adelaide Hospital in association with the culture of the other two hospitals.

Deputy Rabbitte rose.

Order, I am calling Deputy Yates whose question No. 73 refers.

Is the Minister aware of the serious public dissatisfaction in the Tallaght area because of the continued delays in the construction of this hospital? Furthermore, can he confirm to the House that in the talks he referred to between the three hospitals, the management group, that he put four options to them for the future structure of this hospital and that those talks are proceeding on that basis? I understand the talks are running into some difficulty. What timetable does he envisage for the conclusion of those talks, and if there is no agreement, what will he do?

The timescale for the talks, I would say, is the end of the year.

This year?

Yes. It is a hypothetical question whether the talks fail. The representatives of the three hospitals are very anxious to reach a consensus. It is important, as the Deputy will appreciate, that the management of the hospital is acceptable to the three hospitals. I reiterate that both myself and the Taoiseach when he met the Church leaders made it clear that we were very anxious that the Adelaide Hospital would be satisfied with the new arrangements for the management of Tallaght Hospital. The three hospitals agreed to appoint representatives who are meeting with an independent chairperson and to come back to me within a reasonable time, say, before the end of the year, with whatever arrangements they wish to put in place.

Do I take it from what the Minister has said if they do not reach agreement by the period of the timetable that he will impose his own solution?

I did not say anything that would lead the Deputy to believe that. He cannot take that from what I said because when I establish small groups to work in this fashion I do not start off by addressing myself to what might happen if they fail.

I notice the Minister's reaffirmation of the assurances he has given to the Adelaide Hospital concerning the maintenance of the legal and medical procedures that that hospital has for so many years carried out in the city, but why has the Minister not reached agreement? Why does the board of the Adelaide Hospital continue to be dissatisfied with the tenor of the discussions with the Minister? Why has agreement not been reached with the board of the Adelaide Hospital at this late stage to assure them that the traditional ethos will be incorporated into the Tallaght Hospital?

The Adelaide Hospital have been given all the guarantees that their ethos will be protected and will be preserved in the Tallaght Hospital. I am not so sure about the question of disagreement with the Minister. I met them on a number of occasions. They agreed to participate in discussions with the representative of the Meath Hospital Board and the National Children's Hospital Board. I understand those meetings are on-going with an independent chairperson, so that I am not directly involved in those meetings. I cannot see how the Deputy is of the view that they are in disagreement with me. The Deputy will appreciate that the three hospitals must be accommodated in Tallaght and must be satisfied with the board of management. It would be a recipe for disaster if you were to say to one hospital: "Go and take over the management of the hospital and what odds about the other two?" The Deputy will agree with me on that issue. Our aim is to reach consensus. There is no reason why every hospital should not be satisfied, while ensuring the position of the Adelaide in the new hospital in Tallaght.

The next question, please. A brief question from Deputy Flood. The Deputy will appreciate the Chair has devoted a lot of time to this question.

With reference to part two of Question No. 4, does the Minister agree there is need in the Tallaght Hospital for a genetic counselling service and, if so, will he inform the board of that fact? Secondly, would the Minister agree, before any management structure is finally put in place for the Tallaght Hospital, that the traditions and ethos of the three hospitals — the Adelaide, the Meath and the National Children's Hospital — will be incorported in and be given expression in that management?

The purpose of the meeting of the representatives of the boards of the three hospitals is to try to arrive at a consensus that will protect the culture and ethos of the three hospitals in Tallaght. When it comes to the practical implications, there are not really any procedures in the Adelaide Hospital that are not available in many other hospitals throughout the State.

They are not practised and the Minister knows that.

Deputy, tell me one that is not practised.

There are one or two cases.

They are practised, and I answered a question in this House on that issue. In every health board area the practices are available to patients who need them. At the end of the day the nature of medical treatment and medical procedures performed is a matter between the consultant and the patient. I accept there are a small number of hospitals——

Where a committee intervenes.

——who have their own particular ethics but in the State hospitals the procedures that are available in the Adelaide are available in St. James's and other hospitals as well.

Let us proceed to another question, Question No. 5, in the name of Deputy Owen.

May I ask a brief question? Would you permit one sentence?

Deputy Rabbitte, I am sorry. The Deputy has had a good innings on this question and he should appreciate it.

The Protestant community has not had a good innings on it.

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