Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Mar 1991

Vol. 406 No. 2

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Authority Dwellings Amenities.

Michael Noonan

Question:

5 Mr. Noonan (Limerick East) asked the Minister for the Environment if, in respect of the 6,500 local authority dwellings still without bathrooms, he will outline (a) the average cost of providing a bathroom extension, (b) the provision in this year's estimates for bathroom extensions and (c) the number of bathrooms expected to be provided this year; if he will give an estimate of the number of private dwellings still without a bathroom; the grants available to assist with the provision of bathrooms; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Flynn

Local authorities are responsible for the management, maintenance and improvement of their rented dwellings including the provision of bathrooms. While responsibility for the provision of bathrooms remains with authorities, I am making a special allocation of £2 million this year to assist them to tackle the backlog of work. This provision is intended to supplement the expenditure of the housing authorities and to focus attention and effort on progressively eliminating this serious deficiency in their housing stock. It will be in addition to the allocation of £16 million under the remedial works scheme under which bathrooms will also be provided as part of larger refurbishment works to substandard dwellings.

The cost of providing bathroom or shower facilities, as appropriate, will vary from dwelling to dwelling depending on circumstances. While it is, therefore, difficult to establish average costs, I understand that the cost can range upwards from some £1,000 per dwelling depending on the nature and extent of the work required. As local authorities will continue to provide bathrooms from their own resources and as applications for the special funding are only now being received in my Department, it is not possible to state, at this stage, the number of bathrooms which will be provided this year.

Details of amenities, including bathrooms, in the housing stock were last comprehensively ascertained in the 1981 Census of Population which disclosed that some 159,000 permanent housing units did not have the use of a fixed bath or shower. In the intervening years, this number would have been substantially reduced through the provision of bathroom facilities, whether grant aided or not, and the elimination of older substandard dwellings from the housing stock. The 1991 census will provide up to date definitive information on the position.

Grants are not now generally available for the provision of bathroom facilities in private dwellings. However, grants to assist in the provision of bathrooms may be available to eligible persons under the schemes of disabled persons' grants and special housing aid for the elderly.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Would the Minister not agree that the local authorities accept the figure of £5,500 to £6,000 as the average cost for a bathroom extension? This figure is also accepted by the health authorities. Would the Minister accept that at the rate of £2 million expenditure per year, it would take 20 years to provide bathrooms in all local authority dwellings? Will the Minister agree that the situation is worse in the private sector and that we will enter the 21st century with tens of thousands of our citizens living in houses without the basic amenity of a bathroom?

Mr. Flynn

I am advised that one could provide a public sector inner city flat with that facility for about £1,000 but in a house it might cost up to £3,000 and the provision of a whole bathroom extension could cost between £6,000 and £6,500.

Mr. Farrelly

Three per county.

Mr. Flynn

Averaging it out, obviously it will take some time to deal with the whole list but it must be remembered that this has been going on under the maintenance of local authority housing. A lot of that has been done over the years. The £2 million in the sub-programme of the remedial scheme which I know is supported by all sides of the House is just a help to speed up that process.

Mr. Farrelly

Six per county.

Mr. Flynn

That is not so. This has been ongoing within local authorities in their refurbishment programmes and £2 million is an addition. Out of the £16 million for remedial works, about 75 estates are being catered for. Unfortunately we have to spend that money on low cost buildings of 20 to 30 years ago. If we had that money to go in another direction it would make a difference to many other initiatives one could contemplate. I like to think that the House supports the remedial works scheme a £16 million, which includes bathrooms if deemed necessary, plus the £2 million sub-programme.

In the private sector the figures in the 1981 census were substantial but since that time we had the improvements grants and about 10 per cent of all housing stock qualified under those schemes which cost nearly £200 million. It can be assumed that quite a number of units of accommodation that did not have the basic facility would have qualified and have it under the house improvement scheme. We will have to await the 1991 census to know the result of that.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Is the Minister aware——

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. A number of Deputies are offering. I want very much to facilitate them but they must be brief.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Is the Minister not aware that many parents are trying to rear teenage children without the basic facility of a bathroom in the house and that this is causing great problems and embarrassment for the teenagers? Would the Minister not agree that this programme should receive greater priority so that we can share the objective that no dwelling house in this country will be without a bathroom at the start of the next century?

Mr. Flynn

I share the sentiments expressed by the Deputy and that is the aim.

Mr. Farrelly

Two million pounds is not enough.

Mr. Gilmore

Would the Minister also agree that many of the dwellings concerned are occupied by elderly people, who at the present rate of progress, may not be around to see the installation of the bathroom, and does the Minister feel that there is a need to speed up the process? Is it intended to use the £2 million to provide bathrooms or showers as an interim measure in dwellings which are already listed for the remedial works schemes, but where the work under remedial works schemes may not take place for a number of years?

Mr. Flynn

I believe that the houses of a large number of elderly people lack these facilities and it was this which prompted us to continue providing special help to the health boards. Very good work is being done in all health board areas in providing these essential facilities. This work complements the refurbishing work currently being done in 75 estates under the remedial works scheme at a cost of £16 million. We should never forget that the local authorities have programmes to provide these facilities in their own estates. I isolated this £2 million as an added incentive to help these along and speed up the process so that, as Deputy Mitchell said, we can rid ourselves of that difficulty in as short a time as possible.

Mr. J. Mitchell

This century?

Mr. Leonard

Would the Minister now encourage the health boards who administer the housing aid for the elderly scheme to put the emphasis on providing bathrooms?

Mr. Flynn

May I take it that the Deputy is recommending that I suggest to them that they concentrate on providing basic sanitary facilities?

Mr. Leonard

Yes.

Mr. Flynn

I will be happy to do that, but I should point out to the Deputy that usually applications to the health boards under the special aid for the elderly scheme have to do with essential repairs.

Mr. Belton

It is the only place they can turn to for grants.

Mr. Flynn

Grants totalling £200 million were made available and covered one-tenth of the housing stock.

Mr. Belton

Employment was created for small builders.

Mr. Flynn

I would have to say that if this money had been better directed by a previous Minister——

Mr. Belton

In County Mayo.

Mr. Flynn

——we might not now face the difficulties we are facing.

Mr. Howlin

Would the Minister not agree that the remedial works he is talking about, which are costing £16 million, include everything from basic dry lining to re-roofing, that it is a bit disingenuous to say that a major portion of these funds will be spent on bathrooms and that the figure of £16 million is therefore grossly inadequate? Would he further not agree that the extra £2 million to be made available to the local authorities is only a drop in the ocean, that the housing aid for the elderly scheme is grossly underfunded and that it is virtually impossible to get it now?

An Ceann Comhairle

Brevity, please.

Mr. Howlin

Since the Minister abolished the private grant the private home owner cannot avail of any grant in providing these basic facilities, in particular for the elderly in rural isolated areas. Would the Minister agree——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Howlin——

Mr. Howlin

——that he has no comprehensive scheme to provide these essential facilities?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, I will call——

Mr. Howlin

Will you allow the Minister to respond?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy, do not try to shout the Chair down as that will not work. I am seeking to bring this matter to finality and will call Deputy Allen, Deputy Finucane——

Mr. Howlin

Will you allow the Minister to respond?

An Ceann Comhairle

——and Deputy Gregory.

Mr. Howlin

Are we not to be heard?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will be heard when he rises.

Mr. Howlin

Members have rights in this House too.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am seeking to deal with questions in a very fair and impartial way.

Mr. Howlin

We have seen how you have dealt with Members today.

Mr. Finucane

Put him out.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would not hesitate and he knows it.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy should reflect on the figure which I gave in reply to a previous question raised by Deputy Mitchell. It is very relevant because it points the finger in a certain way. One would have to reflect for quite some time before one could see the wisdom in some of the things that Deputy Mitchell said. It is not a question of £16 million, topped up by £2 million, for the new sub-programme, but rather a question of nearly £80 million——

Mr. J. Mitchell

The Minister is spreading it now.

Mr. Flynn

——of which £60 million will be spent on maintenance, £16 million on remedial works, along with the £2 million——

Mr. J. Mitchell

That is for the bathrooms.

Mr. Flynn

——it includes it — together with special aid for the health boards. Therefore we are talking about a figure of £80 million to be spent by the local authorities on their housing stock.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Why are there no bathrooms?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on Deputy Gregory.

Mr. Allen

That is three from that side.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies will be called if they will only be patient.

Mr. Gregory

I hardly think that the Opposition Deputies can claim that the Independents get special treatment in this House.

Mr. Farrelly

You did for a time.

Mr. Gregory

Would the Minister accept that in Dublin city alone there are 600 corporation houses which do not have bathroom facilities and that 300 of these are occupied by large families who urgently need these facilities? Furthermore, is he aware that it will cost £2.5 million to provide these facilities in those 300 houses which is more——

An Ceann Comhairle

I did appeal for brevity.

Mr. Gregory

I have been waiting for quite a long time.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have remained unduly long on this question.

Mr. Gregory

May I ask the Minister if he accepts that the sum is greater than the entire allocation——

An Ceann Comhairle

I think the Deputy has made his point effectively.

Mr. Gregory

May I finish my question, please? You allowed Deputies in six or seven times on earlier questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has sought desperately to make some progress at Question Time today but has been frustrated in the matter.

Mr. Gregory

May I ask the Minister if he accepts that the cost of providing bathrooms in the houses in Dublin city is greater than the entire allocation made available for the whole country and represents less than one-fifth of the £17 million squandered in glamourising one Government building in Dublin?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gregory is just ignoring the pleading of the Chair in the matter.

Mr. Gregory

Finally, may I ask the Minister if he would not agree that the Government have a shameful sense of priorities in that they have left thousands of people living in dreadful Dickensian conditions while spending £17 million in glamourising one public building?

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to please desist. I am afraid that I will be compelled to go on to another question if this continues.

Mr. Flynn

I would have to answer the Deputy and will do so in this way. This is the first Minister for the Environment who has shown any genuine concern——

Mr. J. Mitchell

That is rubbish.

Mr. Flynn

——and provided money to correct the mistakes made in the past.

Mr. Allen

The Minister withdrew the grants.

Mr. Howlin

Of his own Government.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Allen

The Minister abolished the grants.

Mr. J. Mitchell

For Fianna Fáil's low cost housing of the early seventies.

Mr. Allen

It is dangerous when they start to believe their own propaganda.

Mr. Flynn

When Deputy Mitchell's Government were in place——

Mr. J. Mitchell

We started the refurbishment programme.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy certainly started the remedial works programme and provided some funding.

Mr. Howlin

It was a disaster.

Mr. Flynn

They provided some £2 million for this work. I have consistently suggested to the House that we should provide as much as possible——

Mr. Kavanagh

The Minister did not even believe it himself.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy was a member of that Government and I want to say to him——

Mr. Howlin

You insult your predecessors.

Mr. Flynn

If the Deputy does not wish to hear any replies, fine; but I have to say to him that since becoming Minister for the Environment I have increased the amount of money allocated each year for remedial work schemes and the figure now stands at £16 million.

Mr. Allen

We built only one house in Cork.

Mr. Flynn

I am now establishing a further sub-programme and allocating a sum of £2 million. What I want to say to Deputy Gregory is that a number of units of accommodation in the city require these facilities, but that is the purpose of the Minister's new sub-programme. They will not all be given these facilities overnight but the Deputy will recognise that a very big proportion of the money available to the Minister will be used in carrying out remedial works and in providing in the city the bathroom facilities to which he refers.

An Ceann Comhairle

A final question from Deputy Allen.

Mr. Allen

We have heard the Minister's announcement about the sum of £2 million, but can he tell us when he will inform the local authorities of their individual allocations so that they can carry out their works programme? They had heard nothing up to last Monday.

An Ceann Comhairle

Question No. 6, please.

Mr. Allen

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is asking a separate question altogether. On the bathrooms or on the grants generally?

Mr. J. Mitchell

About the bathrooms.

Mr. Allen

When will the local authorities be told?

Mr. Flynn

While it is a separate question, I am happy to say to the Deputy that it is my intention to make the housing allocations for 1991 in the very immediate future. It is my intention to announce them inside the next 14 days.

Mr. Allen

I was referring to the allocation for bathrooms.

An Ceann Comhairle

Question No. 6.