Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Pensions. – Dáil Éireann (26th Dáil) – Thursday, 2 May 1991

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Pensions.

Seán Barrett

Question:

3 Mr. S. Barrett asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to the fact (1) that unsocial hours' earnings of members of the Garda Síochána, namely payment for working on Saturdays, Sundays, night duty and bank holidays, are treated as income in every way except for pension purposes and that PAYE and PRSI have to be paid on this income, (2) that the gardaí retire on pensions equal to only 40 per cent of their pay; if he has any plans to change the regulations in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Michael Bell

Question:

4 Mr. Bell asked the Minister for Justice the reason for the delay in conceding the claim made by the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors in 1986 for the inclusion of the unsocial hours allowance for the purpose of calculation and payment of Garda pensions; his views on whether their claim is just and fair having regard to the high level of crime and the pressure that the members of the force have to endure on a daily basis and because of the dangers to which they are exposed; when his Department will revise the pension regulation to include the provision of their pensions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Andrew Boylan

Question:

14 Mr. Boylan asked the Minister for Justice the reason members of the Garda Síochána are paid only 40 per cent of their basic pay for pension purposes; if, in view of the commendable work of the force, he will outline his views on whether pensions should be calculated on a higher percentage of basic pay; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Jim Higgins

Question:

24 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for Justice if he will consider calculating, for pension purposes, hours worked by members of the Garda force on Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays and also on night duty; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Roger T. Garland

Question:

46 Mr. Garland asked the Minister for Justice whether his attention has been drawn to the anomaly which exists in assessing pension rights for the Garda Síochána in that they are granted a pension of 40 per cent of their pay but that the moneys which they earn for working unsocial hours are excluded from the calculation even though these allowances are liable for income tax and PRSI; whether it is his intention to rectify this anomaly; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Michael Bell

Question:

68 Mr. Bell asked the Minister for Justice if he has any plans to revise payment of Garda pensions based on the gross level of earnings for a fixed period prior to retirement; if his attention has been drawn to an anomaly which exists with Garda pensions as against other sections of the public service where payments earned for working unsocial hours are not included for pension purposes, but are included for PAYE and PRSI; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Seán Barrett

Question:

69 Mr. S. Barrett asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to the fact that (a) unsocial hours earnings of members of the Garda Síochána are treated as income in every way except for pension purposes and that PAYE and PRSI has to be paid on this income and (b) the gardaí retire on pensions equal to only 40 per cent of their pay; if he has any plans to change the regulations in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Richard Bruton

Question:

70 Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Justice whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the unsocial hours earnings by gardaí are not included for pension purposes; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Burke

I propose to take Priority Questions Nos. 3 and 4 and Questions Nos. 14, 24, 46, 68, 69 and 70 together.

First, I would like to place on the record of the House the Government's appreciation of the excellent work being done by the Garda Síochána in the fight against crime.

As the Government Minister with immediate responsibility for the Garda Síochána, I am always conscious of the need to treat the members of the force fairly in all matters affecting their conditions of employment. The Garda associations have fought hard in the past for the establishment of the Garda conciliation and arbitration scheme. The scheme, which is similar to schemes operating elsewhere in the public service, provides for a conciliation council and an arbitration board both of which are designed to deal exclusively with pay and other specified conditions of service of members of all ranks of the Garda Síochána up to and including the rank of chief superintendent.

The scheme, I believe, works well as is evidenced by the fact that the Garda associations have secured significant benefits under it for their members. In the recent past, for example, those benefits included two special pay awards — totalling 16 per cent — which are over and above the general pay increases.

With regard to Question No. 14, I want to make it clear that gardaí retiring with 30 or more years' service receive a pension of 50 per cent of basic pay and pensionable payments. The 40 per cent figure cited relates to total earnings taking account of certain non-pensionable payments as well as payments for working unsocial hours.

The matter of the pensionability of payments for working unsocial hours is currently the subject of negotiations at the Garda Conciliation Council. Confidentiality of proceedings at the council is a feature of the scheme and it is a feature that must be respected by all parties to the scheme, including the Minister for Justice, if the scheme is to maintain the confidence which is so necessary if it is to operate effectively. In those circumstances, I am sure the House will appreciate that I have gone as far as I can in this reply without breaching that scheme.

Mr. S. Barrett

While the Minister is correct in saying there is a case before conciliation, will he not agree that it is a cop out? There is a claim before the conciliation board since 1986, but as the Government have refused to make any offer, the case cannot proceed. Will the Minister please make arrangements immediately to deal with that matter through the proper channels? Will he further agree that, given the fact that these special allowances are taxed in the ordinary way as income, it is only right and proper that they be made allowable for pension purposes?

Mr. Burke

Rather than a cop out, the situation is that it is before the conciliation and arbitration council. I am not prepared to break the confidentiality of that hard won conciliation and arbitration scheme that is there for the benefit of the gardaí, and I am not prepared to comment further on it at this stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

I now call Deputy Michael Bell whose Question No. 4 refers.

Mr. Bell

As one who was formerly secretary of a joint industrial council I know a little about that and I am very concerned, as I am sure the Minister is, at the length of time it has taken to process this claim. It has been on the table since 1982 in one form or another. Will the Minister agree that this would be unusual and unacceptable in any other form of employment, particularly where a trade union was involved? Will the Minister also agree that the pension of 50 per cent of basic pay mentioned would not be abnormal? In my experience the norm in industry, services and the public service, where the maximum pension would be 33.3 per cent of pre-retirement wages, would normally include all payments — bonuses, allowances etc.

Mr. Burke

The Deputy has raised a number of points that are more relevant to a debate within the conciliation and arbitration scheme and I am not prepared to comment on them.

An Ceann Comhairle

A very brief question, Deputy Bell. The time available for dealing with Priority Questions is exhausted.

Mr. Bell

Can I suggest that the Minister use his good offices to ask the council to bring this matter to a conclusion? It is not possible to deal with this by arbitration because the arbitration referred to by the Minister was part of the 1982 national wage agreement.

Mr. Burke

The Deputy referred to 1982 and an offer made at that time. As I have said, I cannot discuss the present claim before the conciliation council because that would have the effect of breaching the scheme. The position in regard to 1982 is that the official side made an offer to have unsocial hours and a number of other allowances, excluding the main rent and other expenses, made pensionable. The staff side indicated acceptance of the offer and said they would take the rent allowance aspect of the claim to arbitration. The official side could not agree to this and the entire claim went to arbitration. The arbitrator recommended that a number of allowances, including rent allowance, be made pensionable. He recommended, however, that unsocial hours allowances should not be made pensionable. The current economic climate is substantially different from the climate in 1982.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 2 May 1991