I propose to call on the Deputies I have selected in the following order: An Leas-Cheann Comhairle, Deputy Tunney, and Deputy Hogan. Each Deputy is entitled to two minutes in respect of each matter and each statement will be followed immediately by a two minute reply from the Minister of Justice.
Adjournment Debate. - Justice Matters.
I thank the Chair for the opportunity to address this lamentable problem but before doing so I offer my congratulations to the new Minister for Justice. I do not congratulate him because it is conventional or timely but because I have genuine faith in him in bringing to that Department the expertise, consideration and success he demonstrated elsewhere.
I am gravely concerned, almost revolted, by the growing incidence of the most unwelcome and unnatural crime of incest with its devastating consequences for the victim, the family and for society. The obvious failure of the existing legal structures and its practitioners to grapple with the menace and protect the rights of the victims is alarming as is their failure to reflect the will and wishes of all right minded, normal citizens. Almost weekly now, we have evidence of this inadequacy and, at times, of court decisions which appear indifferent to the crime, in so far as technical and puerile points of law take precedence over natural justice, commonsense and reason. My real concern is for the unfortunate victims and for true justice.
There is also the subsidiary and important point of respect for and faith in our courts. How can I or any fairminded, reasonable citizen accept a situation where a father accused of incest by his daughter and who did not deny that the girl was his daughter walked away in innocence from judge and jury because his wife was not present to satisfy the legal nicety and nonsense deemed necessary to prove his guilt? What will happen if the mother is dead or unavailable? Does that mean that henceforth the unfortunate daughter or child victim cannot have justice against an accused father because of this idiotic and nonsensical precedent?
In my opinion in this and in other matters law reform is urgently needed. I think there should be an input from people who are not themselves legal practitioners with, one might say, vested interests. We must take a new approach to the whole system and perhaps introduce a European or Scottish style system where the accused will not get the protection which heretofore has been his right under our system. I look forward to hearing the response from our new Minister who is a reformer — I would not want him to be a revolutionary — and I hope he will reform the present laws so that justice will not only be done but be seen to be done.
First, I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for his kind words at the start of his contribution.
In so far as this particular case is concerned, there is concern inside and outside this House about the level of child abuse. I am glad that the Deputy has brought up the matter as it gives me the opportunity to say a few words this week and I hope to have the opportunity to say a great deal next week on another related matter.
The Deputy has referred to a particular case so I should make it clear formally — though I know that Deputies are aware of this — that I have no official responsibility for the initiation or conduct of prosecutions. What I take responsibility for is seeing that in so far as possible the law, and especially the law of evidence, does not hinder bringing persons guilty of incest to justice. As regards the general law, the Law Reform Commission in their report on child sexual abuse recommended that there should be no change in the present law on incest. As regards the law of evidence, the Criminal Evidence Bill, 1992, which is now coming before the House, makes a number of important amendments in that law following other recommendations of the commission in the same report. I am happy that we will be debating that Bill next week because it is genuinely reforming legislation.
Turning to the actual case that gave rise to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's question, the difficulty lay, I understand, in proving a relationship between the accused and the alleged incest victim. There are two further provisions in the Criminal Evidence Bill that we will be dealing with next week and these will deal with that particular difficulty. As the law stands, a birth certificate is admissible only as evidence of the birth and not of the family relationships. Under section 5 of the Bill to be introduced next week such a certificate will be admissible as evidence of any fact stated therein and, secondly, the Bill makes it clear that the spouse of an accused person is compellable to give evidence for the prosecution in the case of a sexual offence committed against a child.
I have asked the Whips to agree to give priority to the examination of this measure and Second Stage will be taken in the House next week. I am sure there will be full co-operation from all sides of the House in having this important Bill placed on the Statute Book at an early date. It is non-political legislation and I hope it will be treated as such.
I thank you, Sir for giving me the opportunity to ask the Minister about the maintenance of courthouses. I take the opportunity to congratulate him on his appointment as Minister for Justice.
In 1990 the then Minister for Justice stated that the maintenance and provision of courthouses should become the responsibility of the Department of Justice and be taken out of the remit of the Department of the Environment who fund the maintenance and provision of courthouses through the local authorities. In fact, it is worth nothing that Kilkenny County Council provided a sum of £80,000 in the estimates for 1992 for the upkeep and maintenance of courthouses. I can assure the Minister that they are a collection of ramshackle buildings throughout the county where justice is seen to be done. I can enumerate the locations but I am sure the Minister is quite well aware of them.
In view of the fact that the Government announced in 1990 that this would come under the remit of the Department of Justice, I would be grateful if the Minister would sanction this measure as soon as possible and that it be done without any loss in the rate support grant to the local authorities. I look forward to the Minister's reply.
May I express my thanks to Deputy Hogan for his kind words of congratulations on my being——
——elevated——
If you insist, Deputy, to the Department of Justice.
With the exception of most of the Dublin area, the provision and maintenance of courthouse accommodation is the responsibility of local authorities under the Courthouses (Provision and Maintenance) Act, 1935. This arrangement has not worked satisfactorily in recent years because of the reluctance of local authorities to spend money on the courthouses. For this reason, and also because it was considered that courthouses ought to be a central rather than a local responsibility, Government approval in principle was sought and obtained in March 1990 to transfer this financial responsibility to the Exchequer. The intention is that the State will bear the full cost of approved courthouse capital projects and recoup local authorities at least part of the running costs of the courthouses that they provide. Unfortunately the very difficult financial situation and the continuing need to contain public expenditure has meant that it has been possible to implement the Government decision only to a very limited extent.
To date the available funds have been sufficient to enable only a small number of capital projects to be approved and it has not been possible to recoup any part of local authority expenditure on courthouse running costs. Regrettably, there can be no change in that position for the current year. Local authorities are accordingly expected to continue to make provision for courthouse running costs and essential repairs as heretofore. On the plus side, however, the Minister for Finance took a decision to write off outstanding Local Loans Fund charges with effect from 1 January 1991. This means that any local authority which in the past and up to the end of 1990 borrowed money from the Local Loans Fund to pay for the renovation of a courthouse now has nothing more to pay back.
I will be keeping the matter under consideration and under review and it is my intention to implement the Government's decision in full as soon as the financial situation permits. I am satisfied that in due course new arrangements will lead to a significant improvement in the standard of courthouse accommodation.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 28 February 1992.