Deputy Theresa Ahearn was in possession. The Deputy has some nine minutes remaining of the time allotted to her.
Private Members' Business. - Castlebar (Mayo) Third Level Education Facilities: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy E. Kenny on 22 March 1993:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to establish a Regional Technical College in Castlebar, County Mayo, and to make the necessary arrangements to commence the promised third level education courses in Castlebar from September 1993.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:—
Dáil Éireann, commending the Minister for Education for her commitment to investment in Higher Education in order to provide sufficient places for all able to benefit and to ensure that additional resources are used to widen access for all students to third level education in the interests of social justice and equity and economic development, notes that the Minister is urgently examining the needs of different regions, socio-economic groups and the overall educational needs of society with a view to developing an integrated plan in the context of third level education generally and in the context of the White Paper on Education.
—(Minister for Education.)
With your permission, Sir, I wish to share my time with Deputy John Bruton.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The headline today in the Irish Independent states“Minister sanctions Castlebar third level courses”, which is as misleading as the promises and rhetoric of the Labour Party before, during and after the general election. The reality, of course, is that the Minister's commitment is so conditional that it is as meaningless, useless and hopeless as the promises given during the election campaign by the then Deputy, Mr. Pádraig Flynn.
The provision of courses in Castlebar as outlined by the Minister depends on adequate demand, the availability of adequate resources and suitable accommodation. It is surely amazing that the Department of Education has not as yet assessed Castlebar in relation to the criteria she has laid down. The Minister's statement now confirms that no real assessment has been made by the present Government or the previous Government of the suitability of Castlebar as a centre for a third level college. As of now the Department does not know the demand for places in such a college, the resources available and if suitable accommodation is available. Sadly, I can logically conclude that the demand for a third level centre in my own county in Thurles has been as equally disregarded as the demand for one in Castlebar. It is also sad and disappointing that the Minister — new though she is — has resorted to the old and tired tricks of the trade: when nothing will be done call for a review of the entire system.
As there is nothing else to welcome, I welcome the Minister's commitment to meet the representatives of an action group from Tipperary for the rural and business institute in Thurles. I now forewarn the Minister of our determination in South Tipperary to succeed because of our firm belief in the substantial economic and social benefits which would result from such an institute. The Minister stated last evening: "The Government must give priority to projects which will generate sustainable employment and economic growth". If this is the Minister's adjudication guideline, I can assure her that the proposal as present by the Tipperary action group will qualify 100 per cent. We in Tipperary realise that it is not feasible to duplicate courses and that it is vital that future colleges should have a new emphasis to meet the emerging demands of the 21st century. For this reason our project is geared to the development of a new concept which will link mainstream education in a dynamic way with active rural and business development. Our focus is on the natural dominant force in the area, a rural based programme which is totally in tune with the needs of the area and which will enhance employment in and future development of the agricultural and food industries. This is a unique concept and I believe the proposal must be given very serious consideration.
The needs of people in business in rural areas suffers from wasteful neglect in the educational area. A Tipperary rural and business institute could provide a blueprint for the translation into reality of the EC document The Future Of Rural Society. I am glad Fine Gael tabled the motion calling on the Minister to include the institute in Tipperary in her programme for Structural Funds. I now ask the Minister not to wait for this motion to come before the House before assessing the worthiness of our case. We are not looking for “an ideal world”, to use the Minister's words, but I can assure her that in any real world where commonsense prevails no effort would be spared by any Minister to make our dream of a third level institute in both Thurles and Castlebar a reality.
On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I wish to support the case for a regional technical college in Castlebar. It was my privilege as Minister for Finance in 1986 to sanction the purchase of a site for this college. I regret that so little progress has been made since then and that the present Minister has been unable to adhere to the very clear commitment given to the people of Mayo by the then Minister, Mr. Pádraig Flynn, before the last general election when he made it quite clear that a regional technical college would be provided. He has now departed, but his party is still in Government and it would appear that it, in conjunction with the Minister, has been unable to fulfil the commitment given by the then Deputy Flynn.
There is a great sense of disappointment in Mayo. As Members will be aware, I am very closely connected on a family basis to the county and I am well aware of the sense of disappointment felt by people because the Government has been unable to fulfil this commitment. Let me stress that all the available statistics indicate there is an extremely large number of young people who will seek entry to third level education this year and in the years to come. There will be no problem filling the places in a regional technical college in Castlebar, if it is built, as my party intends it will be built.
The establishment of a regional technical college in Castlebar would have immense economic benefits. Apart from spending by students and staff it would also provide a seed bed for various new local enterprises in the west. The experience in other areas where there is a regional college, such as Dundalk, has been that they have been able to develop very good support for local businesses.
One problem, if not the biggest in the west, is the lack of employment, particularly the lack of indigenously generated employment by local firms. I believe that in addition to providing education, a regional technical college will provide technical back-up for local firms in Castlebar, Westport and right throughout the west to help them to develop employment in conjunction with education. It will keep people in the west by virtue of autonomous self-generating employment that will be generated in conjunction with the college. It is extremely important that this college be built as part of our commitment to the west. I urge the Minister to be much more specific than she has been up to now in her commitment to this project. The announcements she made last night are completely inadequate. During the debate last night the Progressive Democrats attempted to criticise the Fine Gael Party who took the decision to acquire the site. I would remind members of the Progressive Democrats, in case they have forgotten, that they were in Government until quite recently and it is regrettable that they did not do something about this matter when they had the opportunity. That is history, the position at present is that we must succeed — and I hope we will — in persuading the Minister and the Government to live up to the commitments that the principal party in that Government gave to the people of Mayo before the election, that they would build a regional technical college in Castlebar.
I wish to share my time with Deputies Moffatt, Ferris, Bree and Shortall.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Long before I came to this House I supported the proposal for a regional technical college in Mayo. I supported it as a member of Mayo County Council, as a member of the vocational education committee in Mayo and as chairman and member of Westport Urban District Council.
A regional technical college for Mayo was promised during the general election of 1980 and that pledge has been renewed at each subsequent general election. Indeed, last November speakers from all political parties pledged their commitment and renewed their support for a third level facility for Mayo. At one stage the acquisition of a site for the college was announced, though the detail of this was always unclear. Agreement was reached on the courses to be provided and on the number of pupils to be catered for.
While the building of Mayo regional technical college has been deferred, major expansion is taking place at most other regional technical colleges throughout the country although some people seem to believe that the idea of a regional technical college for Mayo should be forgotten. The arguments in its favour are now more compelling and urgent than ever, especially in view of the recent job losses and the present high rate of emigration.
There are many compelling arguments — educational, industrial, economic, sporting and cultural — for locating a third level college in Mayo.
In regard to the educational argument, one of the weakest arguments of all, it is appropriate to refer to the recent Clancy report on higher education which has shown clearly that Mayo has one of the highest levels of participation in third level education. Mayo parents value education so much that they have made enormous sacrifices over the years to send their children to third level colleges outside Connacht. Securing a regional technical college for Mayo would increase the chances of Mayo students getting courses that they want and their prospects of access to third level education would be greatly improved. An regional technical college would provide motivation for pupils still at school, an improved adult education service and educational back-up which, in turn, would attract new industry to the country. The Clancy report shows clearly that when students live close to a third level college they attend it in preference to travelling to colleges outside the area.
Industry is interested in locating close to a centre which will provide the proper qualified staff to help them to be profitable. Very often regional technical colleges design courses in conjunction with industry to cater for a particular demand. One has only to look at the growth of the neighbouring towns with regional technical colleges, Sligo, Galway and Athlone. Despite the disadvantage of not having a regional technical college in Mayo, the county has been fortunate in attracting Allergan Pharmaceuticals, Hollaster International, Asahi and Baxter Laboratories in Castlebar. The county would be much more successful with the ideal workforce available throughout the country if it had an regional technical college to support its claim for further industrial development.
All regional technical colleges now offer assistance to local industry in the vital field of research and development. The lack of such assistance in Mayo is another disadvantage in attracting new industry to the county, but by providing a regional technical college in the county the prospects for Mayo students finding gainful employment in their home county would be greatly improved.
Perhaps the strongest argument of all for a regional technical college in Mayo is the economic one. At present, almost £2.5 million per annum is paid out by way of grants to students attending third level colleges and courses outside of Mayo. Can a poor county like Mayo afford to export such moneys to much wealthier counties? It is estimated that the regional technical college in Tralee is worth a minimum of £7 million to the local economy annually.
Much is said about the population imbalance in this country where almost a third of the population is in the greater Dublin area and two-thirds in the rest of the country. This lopsided population has posed as many problems for the east coast as the under population has posed for the west coast and I would submit that the location of a regional technical college in Mayo would be a valuable component in restoring the correct balance. By restoring the balance of population equitably throughout the country we would solve many of the social and other problems that currently exist.
The sporting and cultural argument has also been advanced. One has merely to reflect on the presence of roughly 1,000 intelligent and vibrant young people plus their lecturers in a county like Mayo. They would provide a marvellous source of life and vibrancy in an area which is presently stripped of young people. Many of these young people returning daily to their communities is just what the county needs. Sport, cultural activities, drama and the arts would all benefit from this. The county would cease to be a county of the very old and very young. It can be stated clearly and strongly that Mayo is a poor area within a disadvantaged area.
Emigration is rampant in the county. It is almost as bad now as it was in famine times. All the retail and service businesses are struggling and continuing emigration will result in more closures and redundancies. Tourism is undoubtedly an important job-creating industry in the county but its seasonality is a major drawback for a county like Mayo.
If Mayo is to survive it has to be decided by Government that it is worth saving and a provision of a regional technical college is one of the single most cost effective ways of revitalising the county. The case for a regional technical college in Mayo has long since been proven. The Government decided in the mid-eighties to proceed with the project and that decision has never been reversed. If it had not been for enforced cutbacks in public spending during the period from 1987 to 1989 the Castlebar or Mayo regional technical college, as it is now more properly called, would be a reality.
Over the years there has been much emphasis in every paper on education — be it green, white or whatever — on equality of educational opportunity. While this phrase is normally viewed in social terms it can equally apply in a geographical context and does so in the case of Mayo students. There is no doubt that with the continued absence of a regional technical college in the county some of Mayo's youth will be unable to pursue third level education.
"Education for a Changing World, 1992" forecast that there would be an additional 30,000 places required in third level by the year 2001. Facilitating a small fraction of these students in Mayo would greatly enhance the educational, economic, social and sporting life within the county. It would be a catalyst for the creation of self-sustained economic growth and prevent the death of an entire county through constant loss of its people.
In order to survive, an area like Mayo needs investment to fuel economic growth and job creation. To a great extent economic growth depends on having a highly qualified workforce in the area. Mayo regional technical college Action Group and Mayo Vocational Education Committee believe that a regional technical college would be the most cost-effective way of giving the county an urgently needed economic boost.
Contrary to a view expressed from some quarters, there is no division of purpose between the Mayo regional technical college Action Group and Mayo Vocational Education Committee. Both bodies work together in common cause to bring a third level facility to Mayo and in their efforts have the support of local authorities in the county, community councils, chambers of commerce and so on.
The link between industrial development and the regional colleges is particularly obvious from an examination of any of the existing centres in which colleges are based. The benefits to a region can be seen clearly in a town like Athlone where half the plastics industry in Ireland is located as a result of the plastics faculty in Athlone regional technical college. The fact that these advantages do not extend into the region of Connacht are also obvious. The point must be taken that industry follows the college. The present uneven distribution of industry within the region can only be changed by the provision of a college within Mayo.
Education is one of the areas targeted for assistance from EC Structural Funds. The cost of building and equipping the new regional technical college in Tallaght has been largely funded from this source. Mayo's regional technical college was included in the submission for such funds by the working groups for the region and the hope would be that our Mayo EC Commissioner for Social Affairs, Mr. Flynn, with considerable funding available to him, both through the EC Structural Funds and other sources would be prepared, willing and anxious to supply the necessary financial resources to have a third level college located in his native county, if the will of native Government is such as to permit it.
The purpose of these funds is to develop in particular the peripheral regions of Europe. Can anybody in this House say to me that there is any region in Europe more peripheral than County Mayo? The people of Mayo are asking that a small fraction of Ireland's share be directed to the county for the development of a regional technical college. What could such a facility do? As I have stated earlier, it could help to attract badly needed industry to the area. It would contribute to the decentralisation of third level education. It would attract a corps of highly trained people to the area who would contribute to the social, economic and cultural development of the county. It would help reverse the impact of unemployment and would also help reverse the consequences of emigration and migration. It would contribute to the reversal of the inequality that exists. I do not have to spell that out here in any great detail.
There are many social reasons why we need a regional technical college in Mayo. The county is in decline. Demographic projections suggest that by the early decades of the next century the county will be further depleted of its population and that the age and structure of those remaining will ensure that the county continues in decline. There is no doubt that demographics merely indicate trends and they must not be seen as an inevitable prediction of the future. Energetic, positive action at this stage can reverse this trend and, in order to avoid significant marginalisation a transfer of resources must take place. It is in this context that the case for a regional technical college must be seen. A modern regional technical college can stimulate the economy of Mayo. If the State decides to build a regional technical college to educate the children in our area then our county will survive because of the spin-off effects.
Our argument is based on a vision of the future which sees tomorrow's Mayo as a place where the age structure is properly balanced, a place which is thriving, productive and self-generating. People can raise families away from the destructive and degenerating urban sprawl so visible on many parts of the east coast and do so in a place where they belong. The argument is based on a rejection of the thoughts of those who accept the decay which will allow Mayo to turn into a demographic desert, peopled by lonely old people whose families have left, with holiday cottages of those who appreciate quaint dereliction of what was once bold and proud and strong. It is a matter of social choice of the future that we choose whether it is to be jiving at the crossroads or handbag snatching at the traffic lights. This is not purely an emotive wish.
A decision to locate a regional technical college in Mayo based on our needs and on our present participation rates is entirely justifiable. The expansion must be catered for. That this expansion is seen within the context of a social policy is vital. The economic case cannot be over-stressed. A region in order to survive needs investment, economic growth and job creation. Economic growth depends to a great extent on having a highly qualified workforce. The predictions for the decline in Mayo's population are frightening. If this scenario is allowed to develop two problems will result: Mayo will loose its youth to large towns and cities in the east and abroad and the flight from Mayo will add to the population of an already over-crowded Dublin as evidenced in the recent census report.
A regional technical college in Mayo would be of direct benefit to the local economy through an injection from salaries, student spending and building projects. This would have a multiplier effect resulting in the survival and expansion of the retail and accommodation industries. The direct effects of a regional technical college for the county will be an increase in investment in the whole county. The benefits to a region can be seen in Athlone where the plastics faculty in the local regional technical college has resulted in virtually the entire plastics industry in Ireland being located in the midlands.
There is a great wish for this facility in Mayo and every development agency from the county council down, the three urban authorities, all community councils, chambers of commerce, tourism bodies and development agencies are four square behind the campaign to have a regional technical college situated in the county. This is not a request we made today or yesterday. It is in fact all of 15 years, some would say even 20 years, since the idea was first mooted. It is high time that the many promises made at various general elections, most recently last November, were honoured.
The former Minister for Justice, who gave a commitment on behalf of the then Government and who is now in Brussels in charge of major sources of funding, is no less committed today to the development of a regional technical college in his native county than he was. The commitment given by the Tánaiste on behalf of his party last November to the development of a third level facility in the county is no less sincere now than it was then. I have every confidence that the Minister for Education in our partnership Government, Deputy Bhreathnach, will be anxious to ensure that the commitment given by Commissioner Flynn, and endorsed by our party leader, Deputy Spring, is honoured and that she will be to the fore in delivering a long overdue third-level facility to Mayo which needs it so badly and has campaigned for it for so long. The time has now come for action.
I would like to refer briefly to the Minister's speech last night in which she referred, in what I would describe as Civil Service speak, to the decisions on investment which must be made. I suggest to her that Mayo regional technical college falls within each of the six categories she mentioned. It should get precedence over some of the other centres, particularly from the point of view of tourism, marine development and regional development. More important, the siting of a regional technical college in the county would ensure that the population does not decline. I compliment Councillor Paddy McGuinness, and his committee, who campaigned for so long for a regional technical college. I was pleased today to introduce Councillor McGuinness to the Taoiseach.
The Minister last night made a commitment to set up first year national certificate programmes on an outreach basis, but further clarification is necessary in that regard. The commitment given in the last general election was for fully fledged diploma and certificate courses for two or three years. First year courses are not sufficient. I hope the Minister will consider this matter further and ensure that the promise made will be honoured. Otherwise we will be back here again making this request. The campaign for a regional technical college in Mayo has gone on for 20 years and it will continue for another 20 years if necessary.
In the last general election Commissioner Flynn committed his party to the provision of full-time courses in Mayo but not to a fully fledged regional technical college now and that made much sense. In the first year the college could cater for 100, 200 or 300 students and the following year the figure could be increased to 600. In that way the town could gradually develop to accommodate these students. If a fully fledged regional technical college was developed in Castlebar now it would do extreme damage to the town which does not have the sporting and recreational facilities that would be demanded by 1,000 energetic people. The only facility available to them would be the pubs, and clearly the people of Mayo would not accept such an arrangement. Let us build on solid foundations.
The people of Mayo were asked to liaise with the Minister's officials in deciding on the type of courses needed. There should be six courses, two technical and four academic. I suggest that in their deliberations, Mayo Vocational Education Committee consider matters such as industrial technology, marine and tourism. Mayo is now being given a chance to build from small beginnings. If we simply provide such courses as are available in other regional technical colleges we will not achieve our desired goal of a fully fledged regional technical college. We must provide courses which are geared towards the type of industry that will survive into the next century. That is my advice to the committee that has done such trojan work. I hope that committee survives until there is a fully fledged regional techical college in the county.
I thank the Minister for the way she approached the problem of third level institutions. The TUI has identified the need for colleges in areas such as Castlebar, Thurles, Dún Laoghaire and Blanchardstown. In her opening remarks on this motion the Minister acknowledged that it is her responsibility not just to make promises but to make choices based on the facts and figures available. I am aware, as are my colleagues, Deputies Therese Ahearn and Michael Lowry, of the work being done in our constituency to identify our special needs.
We all agree that third level institutions are needed in the areas identified, but the Minister is faced with a dilemma in that difficult choices have to be made on the basis of the amount of Structural Funds available to us and the amount provided by the Exchequer for these services. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Fitzgerald, on her argument in Brussels for this money. All of us have a responsibility to the electorate who, during election campaigns identify their needs.
A small regional technical college which would accommodate 800 or 900 students would cost about £15 million. If we put that in the context of the calls of Deputy Higgins for a primary school building programme, the total budget for that is about £25 billion. Let us look at it in the context of the continuing competing demands being made on the Minister, who has at least said that we will do this in a planned way. Let us work together on this. We do not need a resolution from the Opposition. The Minister, who is a teacher, has a commitment to education. The programme for Government specifies that we have a commitment to making third level education available to as many students as possible, not just in Castlebar or Thurles but in strategic parts of the country where there is a proven need. If we balance what we are trying to do tonight we will remove this issue from the political coal-face of the by-election and we will be constructive in the way we want to run our business. If not, we will exceed the spending limits which Fine Gael are so worried about in the context of the Maastricht Agreement.
Last evening the Minister for Education told the House that total public expenditure on education in 1993 amounted to £1.8 billion, representing approximately 90 per cent by Government spending and about 6 per cent of GDP. This represents an unprecedented increase in the allocation of available resources to education. Of this expenditure, third level education accounts for about 22 per cent of the education budget. Until 30 years ago third level education was dominated by the university sector, which as recently as 1969 accounted for 78 per cent of total higher education enrolments. By 1985 this percentage had declined to less than 50 per cent, due to the establishment in the seventies of nine regional technical colleges and the expansion of the existing technical colleges in Dublin and Limerick. The regional technical colleges were designed primarily with a strong vocational education emphasis and established under the umbrella of the vocational education system. Indeed, we are building on the strengths of the vocational education system.
During the 1980s the demand for access to higher education increased dramatically and the regional technical colleges responded by increasing student numbers from 6,500 in 1980 to over 22,000 today. Many new programmes developed during this period were specifically designed to meet regional or national industrial skills shortages. One of the reasons for the ongoing success of the regional technical colleges is that they are in a position to respond quickly to local, regional and national needs.
The new Regional Technical Colleges Act, which came into force on 1 January this year, has been welcomed by many academics; but, like the great majority of people who participate in the vocational education system, I believe the new legislation, which by and large removes local democratic control, will in time damage the future development of the colleges.
In its programme the partnership Government regards education as the key to our future prosperity, to equity and to equal opportunities for all our citizens. It anticipates that under the new Structural Funds extra resources will be available to assist with the cost of third level education. On that basis it is the Government's intention to ensure that these additional resources are used to widen access to third level education in the interests of social justice and equity. The promotion of social justice and equity will include continuing improvements to the higher education grants scheme to ensure that no student is deprived of access to third level education because of financial circumstances. This is a fundamental issue.
The Government is to be commended for its commitment to investment in higher education in order to provide sufficient places for all to benefit and to ensure that additional resources are used to widen access to third level education in the interests of social justice and equity.
All the studies of our higher education system to date indicate the continued existence of marked social inequities. In the second national survey of participation in higher education, compiled by Mr. Patrick Clancy for the Higher Education Authority and published in 1988, it is pointed out that more than 55 per cent of new entrants to higher education come from five social groups — the higher professionals, lower professionals, employers and managers, salaried employees and intermediate non-manual workers — although these groups constitute only 30 per cent of the relevant target population. Other non-manual, skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled manual workers were seriously under represented. From the last figures available we can clearly identify the problems of access. In 1986, when the children of higher professionals composed 4 per cent of the national population under 15, 12 per cent of new entrants to higher education were sons and daughters of higher professionals. At the same time the children of unskilled manual workers composed 8.2 per cent of the national population under 15, yet only 1.3 per cent of new entrants to higher education were sons and daughters of unskilled manual workers. This type of social inequality in participation levels was greatest at university level. Students from the higher professional groups were most highly represented at university level while students from working class and PAYE backgrounds had the lowest representation in the sector. The disparities between social groups were most pronounced within their professional faculties.
Only five minutes of the time available now remain.
For example, in 1986 of the total of 398 students entering medicine in our universities 115 were the children of higher professionals and only two came from the semi-skilled or unskilled manual worker background. The figures are similar in dentistry, the law and so on. The reality in higher education today, particularly in the university sector, is that the sons and daughters of medical practitioners, dental practitioners, engineers, surveyors, architects, chemists, accountants and surgeons have much more opportunity to succeed than have the sons and daughters of busdrivers, postmen, storekeepers, cooks, waiters and so on and indeed than those coming from an agricultural background and from the unemployed.
The Partnership Government is pledged to bring about the fundamental changes required to end this type of social inequality and injustice by ensuring that scarce resources are used to ensure that students will not be deprived of access to third level education due to financial circumstances. Access to higher education is a fundamental issue and whether the college is in Sligo, Galway, Dublin, Castlebar or elsewhere is a secondary issue if the system does not allow access to the children of the great majority of PAYE workers, small farmers and the unemployed.
I welcome the Government pledge to remove the inequalities in the system and I welcome the Minister's announcement that she has asked her Department to begin the necessary work of arranging for the provision of the first year of a number of national certificate programmes on an outreach basis in Castlebar. I welcome the news that the courses may commence this September, subject to availability of accommodation and agreement with interested parties.
As a former member of the board of management of Sligo Regional Technical College, I am aware that Sligo regional technical college in 1989 offered to run the first year of a national certificate in mechanical engineering course in Castlebar. The course for 24 students would have cost approximately £30,000. For some unknown reason the offer was not taken up. I place on record the fact that the management and staff of Sligo regional technical college are more than willing to assist in whatever way they can in providing necessary courses in Castlebar and Mayo. Two hundred and seventy students from Mayo are at present studying in Sligo regional technical college. Indeed, the Sligo regional technical college always considered the area stretching from Westport to Castlebar, from Strokestown to Cavan, as part of its catchment area. It has a special interest in the development of third level education in this region. I welcome the Minister's announcement.
Deputy Roisín Shortall has less than three minutes left.
When listening to the debate last night and earlier tonight I could not help feeling that it is a sorry sight to see the many Opposition Deputies who have stooped to a level where education is being used as a political football. This is being done for short term gain. Many of the Fine Gael Deputies have reached a new low in using this issue in a vain attempt to gain some political kudos when it would seem that what they are really interested in is whipping up a controversy in a run-up to a by-election. It is unfair and disingenuous of Fine Gael Members to call in such a blind fashion for a regional technical college in Castlebar.
(Interruptions.)
Your leader gave a firm commitment on this.
Could I have order, a Cheann Comhairle, please?
The Deputy has less than three minutes at her disposal. Let her utilise it without interruption.
I am sure the Chair will allow me the extra half minute at the end of my time.
I cannot allow injury time, Deputy.
Before any green light can be given for building such a college a full study must be carried out to assess third level needs nationally. To accede to demands from interest groups to build a regional technical college in Castlebar without due consideration would be extremely unwise. It would be tantamount to giving in to stroke politics, and we have had enough stroke politics in this country.
U-turn.
Sons and daughters.
Deputy Molloy's contribution last night in cataloguing the letters from successive TDs in successive election campaigns is sufficient to prove the point that this issue has been turned into a political football. We can do without that in this country at present. The Labour Party in Government will ensure that a rational approach is taken to the development of education.
If one looks at the amount of Government expenditure which is given to education, it speaks volumes for the commitment of this Government to education. This year alone total expenditure on education amounts to £1.8 billion. This represents almost one-fifth of Government expenditure and approximately 6 per cent of gross domestic product. It is estimated that a regional technical college in Castlebar would cost in the region of £15 million. This constitutes a significant investment by any standards. Such a decision cannot be taken willy-nilly, regardless of the strength of any particular pressure group.
Advisers and programme managers.
Before the Minister for Education could sanction the development of such a building there are a number of factors which must be taken into account. First, it must be clear that there is a definite need for a regional technical college on a regional basis. At present a number of colleges, including University College Galway, Galway regional technical college, Sligo regional technical college and Letterkenny regional technical college provide third level education in this region. The Minister is correct in saying that she must look at the viability of establishing new centres as against the expansion of existing institutions.
The Minister intends to examine the needs of different regions, socio-economic groups and the overall needs of society with a view to developing an integrated plan in third level education generally and in the context of the White Paper on Education. For my part, as a public representative and as a teacher, I fully support the Minister in her stated approach to her education brief. It is a rational and fair approach based on priorities and it is the only acceptable approach given the serious funding restrictions which we now face.
I propose to share my time with Deputy Quill.
Agreed.
Democratic Left support this motion concerning the provision of a regional technical college for Castlebar. We do so bearing in mind that the promised regional technical college in Castlebar is one of four regional technical colleges which have been promised many times for Castlebar, Thurles, Dún Laoghaire and Blanchardstown. Sites have been purchased in some cases and the plans go back a long time. There is nothing new about this promise. It did not come about as a result of a by-election. It has been promised for at least a dozen years.
I was alarmed by the Minister's contribution last night. I will leave it to colleagues representing the Mayo and adjoining constituencies to evaluate the promise she made regarding the provision of national certificate courses on an out-reach basis from next year. When I hear that she intends to review third level provision generally before making any decision in relation to new institutions, I see red lights. "Review" is a code for either changing policy or doing nothing. There is no need for a review. If the officials in the Department of Education and the higher education authorities have to carry out any more reviews on the provision of higher education they will become dizzy, in view of the reviewing that has been carried out up to now and in the past.
We have had all the reviews and reports that we want; the facts are there. The Minister's contribution has projected that 100,000 third level places will be needed here by the end of this decade. At present there are 70,000 places, in other words, there is a need for an additional 30,000 places and that only takes account of the second level students coming on-stream. It takes no account of the need to provide places for second chance education or the possible impact, if any, of the extension of the higher education grants scheme to mature students and the possible increased demand there. We will need 30,000 places by the end of this decade and in 1993, after a dozen or more years of promises of new institutions, the Minister is talking about a review of policy. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean the Government and the Minister are changing their minds in regard to the long-standing policy, not by any interest or pressure group but by the Department, to provide regional technical colleges in those four locations? Is it now intended to renege on that? Is there now a new plan and set of priorities in regard to the provision of new institutions? We need to know if that is the case.
The four locations, Dún Laoghaire, Thurles, Blanchardstown and Castlebar have all been promised regional colleges and the people in those areas need to know if they will be provided. If 30,000 extra places are to be provided by the end of this decade, it is not a review of policy that is needed but action on behalf of the Government to provide those colleges. The existing 70,000 places are clearly inadequate. The present conditions in third level colleges in which students must work are inadequate. For example, the ratio of students to library places in one of our most esteemed institutions, Trinity College, is nine students for every library place and 14 students for every computer terminal. The ratio gets worse as one goes through the educational institutions the regional technical colleges and so on. Students are squashed into confined spaces and classrooms, classes are held in inappropriate buildings and in rooms that were never intended to be classrooms.
Fee paying students are getting bad value for money. Since 1978 fees have increased by twice the rate of inflation and students are crowded into institutions which are not capable of providing the service they deserve. The problem is reflected in the demand for places. It was reported last week that the number of applicants for CAO places this year will be twice the number of available places. That is now affecting the points system and has led to the crazy position that the points required to qualify for courses in third level education have exceeded the basic requirements for the course itself. They are operating not as a system of matriculation, as they were probably intended to be, but as a system of rationing limited places.
The Minister today received a report on curriculum change. There is no point in talking generally about curriculum change at second level while there is inadequate provision at third level and the competition for places there is such that it is impacting severely and adversely on second level. Unless additional spaces are provided at third level there will continue to be problems with regard to the curriculum and education at second level. The various objectives set by this Government in the education area cannot be met unless additional places are provided. With regard to the much lauded objective of greater equity in education, how may we provide for greater equity in education when there are insufficient places in the existing system in the first instance? The Clancy report has been mentioned on a number of occasions. One of the matters referred to in that report concerning who goes to college was that there is a direct correlation between participation in education and the existence of a third level institution in the county or the area where students live. Consequently, if there are areas, or parts of Dublin, which do not have a third level institution the chances are that the level of participation will be greatly reduced. The Dublin area, for example, has also been the subject of many reports.
It is clear there is a serious under provision of third level places in the greater Dublin area and that is something many people outside Dublin find difficult to understand. They point to UCD, Trinity College, the Colleges of Education but, of course, those colleges are serving more of a national than local need. In my constituency there is the bizzare situation of young people having to travel to Waterford, Carlow, Athlone and so on to get into third level colleges.
The Minister will agree that the promised regional technical college for Dún Laoghaire is long overdue. I recall the Minister soldiering side by side with me when, following the closure of Carysfort College, we argued that the college, instead of being sold to private interests, should be used to provide the planned regional technical college for that area. Unfortunately, that was not done but the need remains. A site was purchased in 1980 for the provision of a regional technical college, coincidentally during the tenure of office of the last Deputy from the Dún Laoghaire constituency to hold the Education portfolio. I hope that in the tenure of this Minister we will see more than the site and that the college will be provided.
The demand for the regional colleges in Dún Laoghaire, Thurles, Blanchardstown and Castlebar is not an expression of localism. It is very wrong of people to suggest that; it is a plan which was not invented by the people from those areas but one that evolved from the Department of Education. This plan was based on reports during the seventies, projecting the needs for third level education. Those plans should be implemented. We do not need more promises from the Minister about further reviews concerning the third level education provision but rather action. In particular, we need a commitment from the Minister this evening that she will clear up what is behind this review. I hope this review will not mean a retreat from the long standing commitment to provide regional technical colleges in Castlebar, Thurles, Blanchardstown and Dún Laoghaire if the 30,000 extra places needed are to be provided by the end of this decade.
I thank the Deputy for sharing his time with me. The Progressive Democrats fully support this motion and the campaign for the provision of a regional technical college in Castlebar. It is a matter of public record that the Progressive Democrats Leader, Deputy O'Malley, has given the project his full endorsement and support. It is also a matter of public record that my party colleague, Deputy Molloy, has vigorously pursued the matter with successive Ministers for Education. Ample evidence of his efforts were read into the record of this House in the course of his excellent contribution to the debate last evening.
In the time available to me I seek to make two brief points. The first is that the presence of a regional technical college in a given area is rapidly becoming the major engine for economic growth in that area. This is a proven fact. I suggest members look at the wave of energy and enterprise that has hit the town of Tralee since the establishment of a regional technical college in that town. The facts are that that college is worth £7 million annually to the local economy directly and a great deal more indirectly. In addition, we should consider what has happened in my own city of Cork. There the growth of so many new industries in the harbour region is related directly to the proximity of the regional technical college. The pharmaceutical and health care industries have created 3,500 well paid permanent jobs in the past ten years. The location of those industries in that region is due directly to the fact that there is a regional technical college in the area. The direct links that have built up between those industries and the faculties of chemical engineering and related faculties in the regional technical college in Cork help both the industry and education to feed and foster one another in the most vibrant and productive way possible, underpinning not alone the educational development and needs of the area but also its economic well being.
I have taken those two examples to prove a point, that the presence of a regional technical college in an area is a major catalyst for growth and development. This fact is further borne out by the findings of the IDA. In their up-to-date findings the IDA state that when attracting job creating industries to an area what matters nowadays is the availability of a well educated and well motivated young workforce with facilities for further research and back-up in the immediate area. The days of grants and subsidies as incentives to prospective investors are now gone and we have to face up to that. What counts now is the availability of relevant technological skills, marketing skills, business planning and language skills. They are the skills that derive from a regional technical college located in the area. The Culliton report also bears this out. I do not have time to quote from the Culliton report which is the blueprint for industrial development and job creation here for the remainder of this century. The key provision of Cullition is that of more technological education here, in other words, more provision for the kind of education provided in regional technical colleges.
If it is the intention of this Government to address regional development in its fullest sense then it can no longer refuse to locate a full regional technical college in Castlebar to serve the Mayo region. Those who seek to argue that the area is adequately served by regional technical colleges in Galway or elsewhere miss the key point which is that Mayo is a region in its own right and has a right to develop to its full potential. It has a right to make every effort to keep its young people at home working for their own people in their own county, fully exploring and exploiting the potential of their county and working for the local economy in a national context. The Mayo regional technical college action committee rightly see the provision of a regional technical college as a central tool to enable that to happen. Their efforts, and what they are trying to do, would be fully supported and endorsed by all up-to-date research.
For too long they have seen their county bled by emigration, they have seen many of their brightest and best people work abroad, like the Wild Geese of old, fighting in everybody's battle except their own. I met those people during the course of holidays working in New York, Boston, London, Manchester, Birmingham and Dublin building up the economies of other countries far flung around the world. Is it any wonder that contemporary people in Mayo would want to halt this process of emigration and retain the next generation of young people to work at home for their own people, their own county, their own province and their own country? They should be supported in their efforts.
My second point relates to those who say there is sufficient provision in a centre such as Galway. I found out today that at present 356 students from Mayo are studying in Galway Regional Technical College. Provision ought to be made for these students at home. The fact is that the colleges in Galway are already full, not to mention the growth in the demand for third level places clearly outlined here by Deputy Gilmore, another Galway man.
He could be in Government with the Deputy yet.
The point I am making is that Galway is not in a position to respond to the demand. Rather than providing for an extension to the regional technical college in Galway, I appeal to the Minister to consider setting up a separate regional technical college in Mayo to cater for the existing and emerging needs of the area. She could look to the Structural Funds for the capital funding for such a project. By doing this she would not only be meeting the educational needs of the area but she would also be doing something of immensely greater value: she would be providing a tool for the revitalisation of that corner of the west of Ireland and all of the west in general. She would also be doing what the Government said it would do when it was formed, that is, putting in place instruments of job creation which would enable our young people to work at home and build up their country. I appeal to the Minister to go back to the drawing board, reconsider her decision and not put any stumbling blocks in the way of providing a regional college for Castlebar without any further delay.
I am pleased to have the opportunity of supporting this Fine Gael motion which calls for the siting of a regional technical college in Castlebar. The case for such a college has been well researched, well documented and very well presented by my colleagues. They have set out in detail the demographic, social and economic reasons an regional technical college should be located in Castlebar. Most important of all, they have highlighted the educational necessity for such an establishment. The case has been well made, logically, economically and educationally; the case stands on its merits.
My reason for supporting the case for a regional technical college in Castlebar stems from much more than the simple expedient of supporting a motion put forward by my party. My support is founded on a desire which I have voiced in this House on a number of occasions in the past and which has been the subject of much concern also in my constituency of North Tipperary. That desire has been, and will continue to be, to see that the Government honours a commitment of many years standing, a commitment which the Fine Gael Party worked extremely hard to fulfil while in office and brought to the very brink of fruition, only to have the hopes and expectations of all the people of Tipperary and Mayo dashed in the cruelest manner possible by a Fianna Fáil administration which left the educational needs of many regions of the country in tatters.
I am not speaking of some airy-fairy notions built on hastily thought-out ideas or resulting from ill-conceived plans. The needs of Mayo and Tipperary in this instance run parallel to each other. Both counties have been isolated from mainstream third level education by reasons of neglect, a neglect based on reasons of penny-pinching and short-sighted Government policy which failed utterly to take cognisance of the trends taking place in latter day Ireland. Promises wer made and broken and commitments were reneged on. Senior Ministers from Tipperary and Mayo massaged, used and abused the electorate systematically at election times and then, when they were re-elected to Government, failed to exercise their ministerial clout in favour of the very people who had delivered to them the status of high office together with the attendant mercs and perks.
For over a decade now I have pursued the ideal of a third level institution in Thurles on behalf of the people of Tipperary. When first mooted the idea had the universal support of all sections of the community — educational, commercial, industrial, administrative, cultural and social. When the Fine Gael Party came into Government its faith in the concept and plans put forward at local level was such that approval was given for the preparation of plans and for the purchase of a site. That purchase was duly completed and the project seemed set fair for a successful conclusion. Just when hopes were at their highest, Fianna Fáil was returned to Government and in true blinkered fashion the cold store for plans and ambitions was reopened. If this were a story by a seanachaí, this would be the point where I would say "and things rested so".
We have persevered in the face of adversity. The people of Tipperary and Mayo are noted for their tenacity and refusal to accept defeat. From those twin virtues there has sprung what I believe to be one of the most revolutionary ideas to be propounded on the Irish education scene in our lifetime. I am speaking of the progression of the original plan in to the concept of the Tipperary Rural and Business Development Institute. What this has done is to broaden and enlarge the regional college ethos into a development plan which caters not just for young students coming directly from the secondary school stream, but for those of all ages who wish to avail of the opportunity to broaden their academic and vocational skills, having been out of the education system for a period.
The proposals contained in the Tipperary Rural and Business Development Institute project are innovative and imaginative, forward looking and progressive, but at the same time entirely conscious of the need to refurbish and strengthen our traditional core values among rural and community based groups. There are, in summary, three basic elements contined in the plan. The first and probably the principal element would be to provide access to third level education for those wishing to progress in this direction, in tandem with this would be certificate and diploma programmes for those wishing to improve their education levels, along with degree level programmes to be provided in co-operation with UCC and other degree-awarding institutions. There would be specific training programmes for locally based service operators which would be provided on campus, in outcentres or inhouse. An adult and continuing education programme would be developed as a national model, while a technology centre would make courses available through distance learning. A proportion of these programmes would be self-financing, consolidating the current Tipperary rural and business development programme.
The second basic element of the proposal envisages a research, programme development and strategic planning unit which would support and staff community-oriented work at local level in the catchment area.
The third element in the proposal concerns the mainstream programmes, improving access to third level education in the catchment area, thereby according with the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and the programme for Government generally and in particular with the needs of the lower socio-economic group. It would have a significant contribution to make towards relieving the national demands for third level places without putting any additional strains on the infrastructures already in place.
There is an excellent case for the establishment of third level institutions in Tipperary and Mayo. However, it is with a sense of profound regret and sadness that I say that this Government, like its predecessor, is not committed to providing colleges in either Thurles or Castlebar. The Minister in her contribution last night conveniently ignored the fact that the Labour Party gave a categoric assurance during the last general election that a third level college would be its priority for Tipperary and would be established as a matter of urgency. I am therefore alarmed by her statement, and I quote: "I believe that a review of the third level provision generally is required before any decisions could be made with regard to new institutions." This statement effectively means that all previous commitments and promises count for nothing and have been dismissed. We are now back to square one, back to the drawing board. I see this review mechanism as a deliberate cynical ploy, a foot-dragging, stalling exercise. It is an insult to our intelligence to propose a review committee after 15 years because of the exceptional volume of data, statistics and information already available to the Department of Education. Tipperary and Mayo have absolutely no chance of third level institutions unless the projects are included for funding under the Structural Funds. The Government will finalise the detail of its submission for the 1994 round of structural aid in the coming months. I am fearful that Thurles and Castlebar will not be included in this programme and that the Government will attempt to fob us off with the excuse that a further meaningless and futile review exercise was not completed in time to allow for their inclusion.
I wish to say in conclusion that I was amazed at Deputy Shortall's intemperate and ill-considered outburst. She has obviously not read Labour Party election literature for Tipperary. I would advise her that the Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, Deputy Ryan and Deputy Ferris made this college a political issue during the election, for short term gain. They were adamant that we had a legitimate case and that there should be no further delay. They were adamant that after 15 years the project was researched to death. They were adamant that there would be no obstacles and that money would not be a problem. Above all, they were adamant that with Labour in Government we would get our colleges in Thurles and Castlebar. Now is the time to deliver.
I wish to give two minutes of my time to my colleague, Deputy Moffatt.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The saga of Mayo Regional Technical College is well documented and it was clearly articulated last night in this Chamber. It is well chronicled outside this House. I do not propose to hold up the proceedings of the House by giving a chronological history of the course of this saga. For me this is a matter of principle. Clearly a commitment had been given by all political parties in Government over the years. I regret, therefore, that the Regional Technical College Action Group found it necessary to come here again to secure a new commitment in regard to a matter which they understood had already been officially agreed. Their journey should not have been necessary.
I was pleased to hear the Minister state yesterday that courses can be put in train in Castlebar next September. She appeared to be taking account of the situation in Castlebar, bearing in mind what had already been promised. The Minister indicated that interested parties in Castlebar had been consulted regarding details of courses most appropriate to the location. Such consultation is fine but I trust that the whole responsibility for establishing those courses will not be placed on local interests alone. There is clear need to have the courses carefully vetted so that they can be developed and built upon while catering for the needs of the region. The courses should not be in competition with those offered in other places. The possibility must exist that these courses will lead to the development of a full third level institution at a later stage. Experts in the Minister's office and in the Department have a part to play and they should be seen to be actively engaged in establishing this initiative. The commitment given to Mayo Regional Technical College and to Castlebar should be honoured in full.
Claims are made for regional technical colleges in other areas but very few can match the validity of the Mayo claim. Many promises have been made in regard to Mayo. Sites were identified and some planning was done. Costings were also made. The size of the county justifies reference to it as a region. Mayo has the third highest level of third level participation. No county of its size is without a third level institution. There is the need to provide extra third level places in the years ahead. There is also the need to respond to the clearly expressed wishes and demands of the business and industrial sectors in the county. Other reasons have already been mentioned.
I congratulate Mr. McGuinness and the action group on their dedication and commitment to this project. Reference has already been made to pressure groups, but I would not regard this action group as a pressure group in the real sense, nor can it be claimed that granting their demand would be yielding to a pressure group rather than responding to need, with carefully researched and drawn up plans. The regional technical college was promised long before the action group came into existence.
By the man in Europe.
We all realise that forward planning must be carried out. The project had the goodwill of all political parties for many years. Because nothing was happening on the ground, the group came together to facilitate the coming into existence of a project which was promised so often that the people of Mayo came to see it as their right. The project had the goodwill of all political parties. Judging by the debate on this motion, that still seems to be the case. I would appeal to the Minister to honour the commitment given to Castlebar and to the regional technical college in Mayo and to bring the matter to a happy conclusion.
Has the Deputy forgotten that his party are in Government?
As it is now 8.15 p.m., I must in accordance with an order of the House call on Deputy Higgins.
On a point of order, I was going to inquire if there was anybody speaking for the Government. If all the parties are in favour of building this college, why is it not being built?
Deputy Kenny and I are very grateful to all the Opposition Parties for their unstinting support. I was somewhat amused listening to Deputy Hughes stating in a so-called "rational" defence of his erstwhile colleague, Mr. Flynn, that Castlebar would not be able to cope in regard to accommodation or recreation. Were Letterkenny, Sligo, Tralee or Athlone able to cope? Castlebar can more than cope.
I am extremely disappointed with the Minister's reply. Deputy Kenny and I argued cogently for 40 minutes yesterday that Castlebar should have a regional technical college. We dealt with the human aspects, the social aspects, the economic aspects and the education aspects. We outlined the history of the proposals and showed the clear progress made up to 1987 by Fine Gael and Labour, by which time agreement had been reached in principle, a fine site had been chosen and the courses agreed. It was all systems "go". From 1987 to 1992 all we had was promise after promise and commitment after commitment loudly heralded, particularly at election time but subsequently reneged on and smashed to smithereens by Fianna Fáil.
On 11 November 1992 we had a final promise and a clear commitment from Pádraig Flynn that six courses would start in Castlebar from September. These were to be four academic courses and two technical courses. Approximately 300 students were to be taken in and a college principal was to be appointed. Three weeks ago, the Minister for Education blew that proposal out of the water. In the meantime Mr. Flynn had turned his back on the 9,000 people who gave him a first preference vote and settled himself neatly into the luxury of his Brussels portfolio. Coincidentally, this portfolio involves total command and disbursement of European Social Fund grants. Grants for regional technical colleges, polytechnics and all the colleges of technology in this country and every other country in the Community will come from the ESF funds controlled by Pádraig Flynn, yet there is not a solitary shilling for his native Castlebar or Mayo. I was amused at the so-called defence by Deputy Hughes and I can only conclude that he was speaking with tongue in cheek.
Last night Deputy Kenny and I showed that Mayo is not a county but a region. We have lost 63,000 people since 1926. We have lost industry after industry, service infrastructure after service infrastructure, schools, post offices and small retail outlets. We proved to the Minister that the existing colleges and universities are bursting at the seams and that there will be campus chaos in September. Seven new colleagues at least are needed.
I take grave exception to being lectured by Deputy Shortall about the waste of £15 million on a human resource in Mayo. Four months ago the Labour Party were the great champions of ordinary people. What would James Connolly say? What we are saying is that we showed that Dublin has 12 publicly funded colleges and Mayo has none. We do not begrudge an extra one for Dublin, but give us ours. We showed that Limerick has four publicly funded colleges and Mayo has none. We showed that Cork has three publicly funded colleges and Mayo has none. There are regional technical colleges scattered around the provinces, and they are welcome to them, but Mayo has none.
We illustrated conclusively that regions which do not have higher education colleges simply cannot compete with other regions in terms of attracting industry from the outside. We have shown that if one wants to develop the regions and help them grow their own indigenous industries then there is a need to liaise with, feed off and interact with research and development facilities in technical colleges. We pledged, on the basis of the supposed new emphasis on regional development, that central to such development in a region such as Mayo is a regional technical college. Last, but by no means least, we underpinned our case with the clear statistic that Mayo has the third highest participation rate in the country.
We set out to make a case and we made our case. However, despite the elaborate detail and argument we presented, not a single argument we made was addressed by the Minister. Our motion was simply faced down by the vague, aspirational and bland amendment which will be voted on in this House in ten minutes' time.
Instead of responding to the points, the arguments and the statistics advanced we heard from Minister Bhreathnach a ten page statement ranging across the general canvas of third level facilities. It was arid, bureaucratic and unfeeling. It is only in page nine that we get to the nub of why we are here tonight and why the Gallery is packed tonight with Mayo people. The Minister said: "I have stated already that I believe that a review of the third level provision generally is required before any decision could be made with regard to new institutions". Deputy Gilmore's suspicions are right — effectively, Castlebar and Thurles have disappeared from the league table. Instead of a commitment to a precise number of third level courses all we get is a highly dubious, watery commitment to some out-reach courses "subject to viability including demand, resource availability and of course agreement with interested parties".
For a rapidly shrinking community of 110,000 people frantically clinging by their fingernails to survive, looking for hope, encouragement and support, this is simply not good enough. We want our regional technical college in Mayo. We are entitled to our regional technical college and we have been let down tonight. We have been turned down and we are angry. The people of Mayo are watching tonight's proceedings in this House both in this Chamber and outside and tonight's vote will be watched with interest. Tonight will not be forgotten.
This Fine Gael motion calling for the establishment of a regional technical college in Castlebar and for the commencement of courses in September 1993 has had the support of a number of parties in the House. I want to thank each of the speakers who took the time and had the concern to come in here and offer their support both for this and for other projects. As Deputies from Mayo, we are very grateful for that.
Some points must be answered and some points have arisen that are of interest. For instance, Deputy Bree pointed out that Sligo regional technical college were interested in having third level courses down as far as Castlebar and beyond. He is correct when he states that an outreach course was approved for Castlebar to be held in Davitt College, which is a large vocational school down there. However, it was impossible to hold that course in that college because it already has 750 pupils in a building that was designed for 500 and the rooms there are required even on Saturdays. Therefore, it is impossible to take up any offer made by Sligo regional technical college.
I am saddened and disappointed that the old ways of politics seem to be gone in the context of a man's word being his bond. Did the former Minister Flynn not meet with civil servants in Castlebar on 12 October, did he not meet with a member from the administration unit and from the planning unit and an other senior official and did he not subsequently formally announce to the regional technical college group that six courses would start in this year, that four of those would be academic, that two would be technological, that these would start with 200-250 students rising to 800 within three years and that this college would have a fulltime independent principal? Did the Minister make that announcement or did he not? Did he not go down on his two knees and ask the regional technical college action group to accept these proposals as Government proposals as distinct from merely proposals of a Deputy and a Minister from the county?
I welcome the fact that Minister Bhreathnach is going down to Mayo, and she will be royally and regally received. I would ask that she not alone visit Castlebar but take a trip down to the Céide Fields in north Mayo. I would suggest that she go around though the barony of Erris, set the milometer on her Mercedes and see how far it is back to Dublin. She should go down to any railway station or coach pick-up point any Sunday evening and look at the numbers that are exiting from our county on a daily and on a weekly basis.
I am grateful for the support given by Deputy Quill of the Progressive Democrats. A potential candidate for that party has already committed the Progressive Democrats to granting a fullscale regional technical college in Castlebar in their first term back in Government. I want to answer the charge made in this House last night by Deputy Molloy, a long time Member of this House, who said that the Progressive Democrats had promoted and vigorously supported this concept. Let me tell Deputy Molloy that I have received evidence in writing from the regional technical college action group which states quite clearly that the only support given by Deputy Molloy was in a hand written letter he wrote to them on 25 March 1989 in which he said he fully supported the campaign and was putting down some parliamentary questions for the next Dáil session to establish the up to date position and present Government commitment. He followed that on 30 November 1989, when he was in Government, by confirming that he had taken the matter up with the Minister for Education and that immediately he had any news he would contact the regional technical college action group again.
Deputy Molloy was a Minister at the same Cabinet table as Minister Flynn, but he was more interested in promoting his three local council candidates in the 1991 election than in promoting the regional technical college concept for Castlebar. There is yet on record no statement from former Minister Molloy where he gave his full support and consent to this. The Progressive Democrats were so bad that the regional technical college action group had to come to Dublin to meet personally with Deputy Mary Harney to explain to her the discrepancy between public statements by the Progressive Democrats and their statements on the record; that meeting took place in this House on 13 October. I would value Deputy Molloy's support rather than any vindictive backbiting, because what is required here is a cohesive and co-ordinated record.
The Deputy is not doing much to achieve that.
On 7 June 1985 the then Minister for Education, Deputy Gemma Hussey, said that the position was that she had authorised the commencement of planning and design work for the proposed college and that her Department would be writing to the vocational education committee in relation to the procedures involved. On 28 January 1987 the then Minister for Finance, Deputy John Bruton, said that he was also agreeable to the purchase of a site for the proposed Castlebar regional technical college and that as soon as an appropriate application was received his Department would sanction it. An official letter on file on 2 February 1987 from the late county manager in County Mayo, Mr. Michael O'Malley, stated that a site was available located between Travenol Laboratories and Davitt House on the main Castlebar/Claremorris road, that the site was approximately 18 acres in area and had a frontage to the main road of 650 feet with full services. Let me remind Minister Niamh Bhreathnach of the words of her Leader, the present Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, on 22 February 1990 when he said the Labour Party pledges its full support to the people of Mayo and considers the provision of proper third level facilities in Castlebar as the major priority.
The Minister in her capacity as chairwoman of the Labour Party told a very large crowd in the National Concert Hall, with emotion in her voice: "Our hour has come and we will look after our own." Enough has been written about looking after the Labour Party's own; it is now time to look after the other 80 per cent.
I make a final plea to Deputies Morley, Moffat and Hughes, who were elected to the Dáil by the people of our county to represent the students, the parents, the industries and the businesses, to in this instance disregard the ruling made by any party Whip and vote with the Fine Gael Party and the other parties supporting this motion. Those Deputies should stand by their county in its hours of need and vote with their heads as well as their hearts.
The Deputy is playing to the gallery.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 47.
Tá
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Bhamjee, Moosajee.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Costello, Joe.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffat, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick West).
- Ó Cuiv, Éamon.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Noonan, Michael.(Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Owen, Nora.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put, "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 44.
Tá
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Costello, Joe.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffat, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick West).
- Ó Cuiv, Éamon.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Cullen, Martin.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Question declared carried.