Vol. 429 No. 7
8 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if, in respect of each law centre, he will give details of the current waiting time for a new client to obtain legal advice, or legal aid; the centres that are currently closed to new clients; the proposals, if any, to recruit additional solicitors to be appointed to existing law centres; and the proposals, if any, to open new law centres and to expand the civil legal aid schemes.
31 Miss Flaherty asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the action, if any, he intends to take to appoint women members to the Legal Aid Board.
33 Miss Harney asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if he has examined the possibility of extending the civil legal aid scheme to tribunals such as social welfare appeals tribunals and employment appeals tribunals; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
40 Mr. Barry asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to a report in the January/March newsletter on behalf of the free legal advice centres which states that Ireland spends only 80 pence per person per year on legal aid compared to £3 in France, £4 in Northern Ireland and £4.80 in the Netherlands; if, in the light of this survey, he will give his views on whether our free legal aid system needs to be revamped; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
46 Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the average waiting time for consultations at each of the Free Legal Aid Centres in Dublin; the plans, if any, there are for the provision of additional resources to reduce waiting lists; when it is intended to put the free legal aid system on a proper statutory basis; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
99 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to the fact that there are waiting lists of up to ten months for civil legal aid and advice; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Priority Questions Nos. 8, 31, 33, 40, 46 and 99 together.
That is very unsatisfactory.
In answering an earlier question on this topic, I referred to the Programme for a Partnership Government 1993-1997 which provided that the present scheme of civil legal aid and advice will be placed on a statutory footing and additional funding provided to facilitate an expansion of the scheme. The programme also undertakes to examine the possibility of extending legal aid to tribunals. It is my intention that these commitments will be honoured.
I am aware that the demand for services under the scheme far exceeds its capacity in terms of meeting the demands which are placed upon it and I am concerned to ensure that, within the constraints imposed by current budgetary circumstances, the scheme will be developed to the greatest possible extent.
The present scheme endeavours to ensure that priority is given to the most pressing cases, for example, child abduction, child care and cases involving domestic violence. However, in some areas, it is not possible to provide a priority service for all applicants who fall within these categories.
One consequence of the priority system is that it leads to long waiting lists for all other applicants. The current waiting times for an initial appointment with solicitors in relation to applications that are not given priority are as follows: Clondalkin (from Aston House), five months; Finglas, seven months; Gardiner Street, 12 months; Ormond Quay, five months; Tallaght, 12 months; Athlone, 12 months; Castlebar, six months; Cork North, nine months; Cork South, eight months; Dundalk, three months; Galway, three months; Letterkenny, nine months; Limerick, eight months; Sligo, six months; Tralee, three months; and Waterford, six months.
I am aware of the report contained in the January/March 1993 edition of FLAC News that expenditure on civil legal aid in Ireland is significantly lower than the corresponding figures of expenditure in certain other European countries. I am also aware of the study by the free legal advice centres on which that report was based. While not wishing to appear to be attempting to justify the status quo or to suggest that the levels of expenditure on civil legal aid in Ireland are in any respect satisfactory, it is relevant to the comparison that the legal aid systems in those countries selected by FLAC for comparison purposes have been in existence in some form or other for much longer than our own. According to the study, the French system has its origins in a scheme which was introduced as far back as 1851, while the Northern Ireland scheme, which is of much more recent origin, commenced in 1965. On the other hand, the first law centres in this State did not open their doors to the public until August, 1980. It was unfortunate that shortly afterwards, in response to a difficult budgetary situation, constraints on public expenditure were introduced which have continued in some form or other up to this day. These constraints, which were of general application, severely hampered the development of the fledgling legal aid scheme. Because of this the service has not expanded as speedily as was originally intended, or as we would wish. I have made the provision of additional funding to facilitate the expansion of the scheme of civil legal aid and advice a priority.
For 1993, the board's allocation is not sufficient to allow for the recruitment of additional solicitors or for the opening of new law centres. However, I have succeeded in having the original allocation for 1993 increased by £100,000. It is my intention that these additional funds will be used in order to reduce the length of the waiting lists at the various law centres by availing of the services of private solicitors. I am conscious that this is only a small beginning but, as I have said on a previous occasion, I will continue to devote my best endeavours to achieve a significant and lasting improvement in the scheme.
The Legal Aid Board has its full complement of 12 members and a chairperson, whose terms of office are due to expire in 1995. It is a cause of regret to me that none of those serving is a woman.
Will the Minister agree that the information he has read out to the House is an appalling indictment of the legal aid service? Will he agree that the waiting lists are now worse than at any time since the service was established and have substantially deteriorated since this Government was formed? Will the Minister indicate the areas within which there is not even a priority service, which results in women who are the victims of violence being abandoned by the Government's legal aid system?
I agree that the level of service does not meet present requirements. I have given a commitment to try to secure substantial improvements in the service in accordance with the budgetary constraints that may arise from time to time. The Legal Aid Board services priority and emergency cases and I have no information to the effect that that emergency status is not available in any of the special emergency categories. I have had meetings with members of the Legal Aid Board and the Law Society and I will be meeting members of the Bar Council in the near future. I have a number of proposals which I will be putting forward with a view to getting better value for the money expended. However, we must have regard to budgetary constraints and £3 million, approximately, is being spent on the civil legal aid service at present. That is not adequate to meet the present needs, but I have given a commitment to put the scheme on a statutory basis and to secure substantial improvements.
Does the Minister recall when he was on this side of the House railing at the former Minister for Justice, Padraig Flynn, about the inadequacies of the system and complaining about the six-month waiting list at the new Tallaght centre? Will he agree that it is outrageous that within his own constituency there is a year long waiting list in the Tallaght centre? Will the Minister indicate how and when he intends to spend the £100,000 which he has secured for use by private solicitors in providing legal aid? Will he indicate also when legislation will be introduced in that regard?
Will the Minister agree that the majority of those who seek this service are women and that it is unacceptable that there is not one woman member on the Legal Aid Board? Will he agree that as this is not a statutory service and that as the numbers on the board and its members are determined by his Department there is nothing preventing him from appointing a number of women to the board until such time as it completes its term in 1995? That would be a real example of gender proofing.
I am concerned that three Priority Questions remain to be disposed of and time is passing.
As the Deputy rightly said, it would be open to me to increase the numbers on the board and to appoint women to it, I am considering that matter. The problem is that this would reduce the very limited and all too restricted fund available to the Legal Aid Board to provide and deliver the services. If more money was expended on members of the board there would be proportionately less money available to expend on the delivery of the legal services, the important part of the operation. Nonetheless, I can tell the Deputy and the House that when we reach the position where the scheme is put on a statutory basis—as far as I am concerned this will be as soon as possible — the present board will cease to be in office and a completely new board will be appointed on a statutory basis. I assure the Deputy and the House that when that point is reached the new board appointed by me will fully meet the gender criteria already agreed by the Government in respect of all State boards.
I complained about the lack of resources and the waiting times for civil legal aid, not only when Pádraig Flynn was Minister for Justice but also when the Labour Party and Fine Gael were in power together and Fianna Fáil was in Government with the Progressive Democrats. The resources are inadequate, and that has been the position since the service was set up.
The situation was never as bad as it is now.
As I have indicated to the House already, it is my intention, in terms of the Estimates for the forthcoming year, to try to ensure that the maximum moneys possible are provided from budgetary funds, within budgetary constraints, to secure expansion of the civil legal aid scheme. I am committed to doing this.
