Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs on Wednesday, 28 April, 1993:
(1) That a Select Committee of Dáil Éireann consisting of 25 members of Dáil Éireann, excluding theex officio members of the Committee referred to in paragraph (7), be appointed to be joined with a Select Committee of Seanad Éireann to form the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs.
(2) That the Joint Committee shall have power to appoint sub-Committees and to delegate any matter comprehended by paragraphs (4), (8), (9) and (10) to a sub-Committee.
(3) That the Select Committee of Dáil Éireann shall consider the Estimates for Public Services submitted to Dáil Éireann in respect of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation and report thereon to Dáil Éireann and the Select Committee shall have power to appoint a sub-Committee for this purpose.
(4) That a Bill initiated by the Minister for Foreign Affairs or a Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs having passed its Second Stage may on motion made in Dáil Éireann by a Member of the Government or a Minister of State be referred, with the concurrence of Seanad Éireann, to the Joint Committee.
(5) That the report of the Joint Committee upon every Bill originating in Dáil Éireann which is referred to it shall be set down for Report Stage in Dáil Éireann.
(6) That in the case of a Bill originating in Seanad Éireann, the motion of referral in Dáil Éireann shall constitute a Second Reading of the Bill and the debate thereon shall be confined to the general principle of the Bill and where the Third Stage has been dealt with in the Joint Committee, the Bill shall on its receipt in Dáil Éireann after being passed by Seanad Éireann be set down for Report Stage, the First, Second and Third Stages being waived.
(7) That the Minister for Foreign Affairs shall be anex officio member of a Committee or sub-Committee which is considering—
(i) a Bill referred to it, or
(ii) Estimates for Public Services,
and may nominate a Minister or Minister of State to be suchex officio member in his stead.
(8) That the Joint Committee shall consider the impact on equality of policy and legislation in respect of the Department of Foreign Affairs and report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.
(9) That the Joint Committee shall consider such aspects of Ireland's international relations, including its cooperation with developing countries, and such matters arising from Ireland's membership of the European Communities and its adherence to the Treaty on European Union as the Joint Committee may select and report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.
(10) That the Joint Committee shall, in particular, consider:
(i) such programmes and guidelines prepared by the Commission of the European Communities as a basis for possible legislative action and such drafts of regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions of the Council of Ministers proposed by the Commission,
(ii) such acts of the institutions of those Communities,
(iii) such regulations under the European Communities Acts, 1972 to 1993, and
(iv) such other instruments made under statute and necessitated by the obligations of membership of those Communities
as the Committee may select and shall report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.
(11) That any consideration by the Joint Committee, the Select Committee or a sub-Committee of security issues relating to Northern Ireland shall be in private session.
(12) That Dáil Éireann may refer reports relevant to the Department of Foreign Affairs to the Joint Committee for discussion, observations and recommendations, and the Joint Committee shall report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.
(13) That the Joint Committee shall make an annual report to both Houses of the Oireachtas which shall detail:
(i) the work carried out by the Committee,
(ii) the work in progress by the Committee,
(iii) the attendance and voting records at meetings of the Committee,
(iv) its future work programme, and
(v) such other matters as the Committee deems appropriate.
(14) That the Select Committee, the Joint Committee and each sub-Committee shall have power to send for persons, but information need not be provided to a Committee or a sub-Committee if a Member of the Government certifies in writing that such information is confidential or that its disclosure would be prejudicial to the State's international relations.
(15) That the Select Committee and the Joint Committee shall have power, subject to the consent of the Minister for Finance, to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist them for the purpose of particular enquiries.
(16) That in the absence from a particular meeting of the Select Committee, of the Joint Committee or of a sub-Committee of a member who is a Member of Dáil Éireann, another Member of Dáil Éireann nominated by the Party or group within the meaning of Standing Order 89 to which the absent Member belongs may take part in the proceedings and vote in his or her stead; and that Members of Dáil Eireann, not being members of the Joint Committee, may attend meetings and take part in the proceedings of the Joint Committee and of its sub-Committees without having a right to vote.
(17) That Members of the European Parliament elected from constituencies in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) may attend meetings of the Joint Committee and of its sub-Committees; and that other Members of the European Parliament may, at the invitation of the Joint Committee or of a sub-Committee, attend particular meetings. Members of the European Parliament attending on such occasions may take part in proceedings without having a right to vote or to table amendments to Bills referred to the Committee under paragraph (4).
(18) That the Select Committee, the Joint Committee and each sub-Committee previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairperson, who shall have only one vote.
(19) That all questions in the Select Committee, the Joint Committee and each sub-Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes, the question shall be decided in the negative.
(20) That every report which the Select Committee or the Joint Committee proposes to make shall, on adoption by the Committee, be laid before Dáil Éireann or, in the case of a report by the Joint Committee, both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith, together with any document relating thereto which the Committee proposes to publish, whereupon the Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report and the said document, or documents, as the case may be.
(21) That notwithstanding paragraph (20) where the Joint Committee has completed Committee Stage of a Bill, it shall be empowered to print and publish the said Bill as amended, where appropriate.
(22) That the quorum of the Joint Committee shall be 8, of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least one shall be a member of Seanad Éireann, the quorum of the Select Committee shall be 6 and the quorum of each sub-Committee shall be a number to be decided by the sub-Committee when such sub-Committee is appointed.
(23) That no document received by the Clerk to the Select Committee, the Joint Committee or a sub-Committee shall be withheld, withdrawn or altered without the knowledge and approval of such Committee."
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
In paragraph (5) after "House", to add the following:
and in order to ensure that the Report Stage debate is a fully informed one, both Houses will make arrangements for the full computerisation and timely indexation of the report of the Committee's proceedings".
—(Deputy J. Bruton).
Speaking out on human rights issues whether in Bosnia, Tibet, Kampuchea or East Timor, to mention but four areas of such concern, is as important for Ireland today as pushing for the dismantling of apartheid was in Frank Aiken's heyday. Moreover, the Single Act does not prevent us from this course of action. Although the Act encourages the adoption of common positions, there is nothing to prevent Ireland from taking its own positions, or taking a lead on particular issues, at the United Nations. The Tánaiste touched on this point and I hope the committee can use our unique position to take a lead. This is why the premises which underline our foreign policy are as important as the details and as such, they will, I hope, be discussed in the proposed committee. I hope that the Committee will be able to clarify where Ireland's position rests within the EPC, to clarify its relationship to the agreed community position, and to clarify whether or not such an agreed position has entailed an abandonment, or modification, of existing policy.
Our participation in the CSCE should also be worthy of the committee's special attention. In terms of how this country has been traditionally perceived, the importance of the Helsinki process cannot be overstated, even in the aftermath of the cold war. Unlike other human rights fora, the process combines human rights issues with other East-West issues such as security and trade. It establishes a reference-point, or a yard-stick, by which human rights and humanitarian provisions can be measured and judged. In this connection, I wonder why this process was not used in relation to the present situation in the former Yugoslavia. Maybe it is a question of commitment. In any case, within this CSCE framework, there is a natural role for Ireland, just as there was when UNIFIL was being established and developed through its early years.
This is all the more important in view of the recent conferences on the human dimension, and the need that is felt to ensure that the agreements of the followup meetings, especially the most recent at Vienna, should be fully and completely implemented.
Such a role is not inconsistent with developing bilateral relations with our two NATO neighbours, Britain and the United States. Given that the CSCE has recently established a parliamentary tier within is framework, it is appropriate not only that the proposed committee examine its work but also perhaps that the members of the Irish delegation report to the committee on its deliberations and decisions.
The Tánaiste touched on a new world order. It was difficult to see where we would get a new world order. Everybody is looking to someone else in this area. Ireland could take an initiative. We are in a unique position to take an initiative on a world order within the UN and within the Community. We cannot absolve ourselves from our responsibilities because of our status as a small country. Considering our history and our record in the UN since the foundation of the State, we have a unique position, a lot of credibility and a lot of respect. We should use that to try to highlight issues which have not been highlighted in recent years.
I welcome Deputy McDowell's suggestion that an institute of international affairs be established. I see the committee as being a catalyst for other things, an institute of the kind the Deputy mentioned would be a good start. The Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs referred to Northern Ireland. We need to constantly discuss the Northern Ireland issue and to challenge our own views. I agree that the security issue will have to be held in private, for obvious reasons. It would be crazy to discuss many of the security issues in the public arena. I welcome the setting up of the Foreign Affairs Committee, which is long overdue. Not alone will the Members of the Dáil and Seanad be better informed, the country as a whole will benefit. Civil servants and members of the Government will benefit when there is a more open framework within which we can discuss our stand on problems around the world and we, as a small country, with a unique history in international affairs can take initiatives and discuss policies.
I too welcome the opportunity to speak on the Foreign Affairs Committee. During the past number of years, including my time in the Seanad, I have expressed an interest in establishing such a committee. Since 1989 I have asked a number of questions of various Ministers for Foreign Affairs as to when this committee would be established. This committee affords us an opportunity to discuss foreign affairs and issues related to it in a meaningful way because foreign affairs has been the cinderella in terms of debate in this House.
There are many foreign affairs issues in which Ireland plays a major part i.e. relations with the Third World, Third World development and development co-operation. If my memory serves me correctly, at least two years have elapsed since there was any debate worth talking about — even then it was not a lengthy one — on our relationships with developing countries. It arose when we discussed our allocation to the IDA. Now that we have a Foreign Affairs Committee we will have a formal structure in which foreign affairs issues can be discussed. A number of Members in the House are interested in foreign affairs issues. Indeed, the Minister in his contribution acknowledged that a number of Members are specialists in certain areas of foreign affairs but they have never had the opportunity, given the present structures and the fact that foreign affairs has been ignored in our debates, to express any new ideas in that area. I am delighted to have been nominated by my party to be a member of the new committee.
Various issues have been raised today in relation to the role of the United Nations and I would like the committee to address its role. There are difficulties about United Nations' mandates in various parts of the world including Bosnia, Slovenia and other countries. I went to Angola last October as an election observer. The United Nations was involved in Angola in bringing about the ceasefire between the various factions which had been fighting each other for 17 years. They were successful in brokering a ceasefire and in bringing the parties together. The United Nations carried out a full register of electors in Angola, a country which did not have a census of population for ten years prior to 1975 when the Portuguese left. One can imagine the difficult task that posed in a huge country and it did a very good job. All kinds of experts were sent in and at least 95 per cent of people eligible to vote were deemed to have been registered. By and large they assisted in setting up an independent electoral commission and saw it implemented. Ultimately these are the people who organised the elections.
Hundreds of people like myself were invited from all over the world through the United Nations and other interested bodies as observers and to travel all over the country for two days during the election. I am satisfied that the elections were free and fair. However, the losers did not accept the result in Angola and as happens in many countries they were armed. Unfortunately the United Nations was not able to enforce the part of the agreement concerning disarming the various factions, although that was part of its mandate. Afterwards an appalling civil war broke out and in the city of Huambo at least 12,000 civilians were killed. Some people say it was one of the bloodiest battles ever fought in the continent of Africa.
When the elections were over and civil war again broke out in that country the United Nations had to pack up and go because its mandate did not allow it to do anything about trying to stop the fighting between the various factions or ensuring the installation of a president and a proper parliamentary democracy.
There is no point in the United Nations operating throughout the world and this country sending our peacekeeping forces, the Garda and observers to Angola and every country where there is trouble if they can go only 80 per cent of the way and if they cannot ensure that when a civil war breaks out the military articles cannot be put in to effect. People can debate forever the morality of military interventions and so on but military intervention, with the sanction of the international community through the United Nations, to get between two warring factions in countries such as Bosnia, the former Yugoslavia, Angola or others, is moral, In our Foreign Affairs Committee we should discuss a stronger role for the United Nations. I may have discussed the case of Angola at too great a length to illustrate my point.
This morning some Deputies raised the issue of neutrality. Certainly we could have a realistic look at our neutrality and what it means. I was interested to hear Deputy Michael McDowell quote what Mr. Eamon de Valera, Mr. Lemass and Mr. Sean MacBride said and how in the late sixties we looked on Irish neutrality as something quite different. It is interesting to note what Mr. Lynch and Mr. Lemass said in the early days when we applied for membership of the European Community. In the mid-sixties we said that Irish neutrality would be tradeable. I have always been intrigued by the meaning of neutrality. About what were we neutral? I am old enough to remember and I have always had an interest in the geopolitics of the sixties, the Cold War politics. There was a great movement at that time, the non-aligned or neutral movement. Many major countries with whom we empathised were members, including India, the former Yugoslavia under Tito and Indonesia under Sukarno. Was Ireland a member of this non-aligned movement when it was a great political force in the world in the sixties and seventies? We would not have been found dead in any of their councils. We did not send any delegates to their famous conferences that were held in those years, but we had this neutrality which had more to do with our relationship with Great Britain than with conflicts between the great powers.
I look forward to a proper cross-party analysis at our committee of our neutrality in the modern world, of what neutrality is supposed to mean to us in the integrated Europe of which we are part and of what neutrality might have to do with the imperative that will be placed on us in relation to European security. I am one of those who believe that if we are part of a European Community we certainly must take responsibility for the security of that union.
I welcome the establishment of this Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. It will improve the efficiency of the Dáil by increasing the throughput of legislation and allow for the processing of legislation in a more orderly fashion.
This new Committee has wide-ranging terms of reference and will make a major contribution not alone to the working of this House but to our international relations, to our partnership in the European Community and, hopefully, to affairs in Northern Ireland. The original terms of reference provided that political and security issues relating to Northern Ireland should not be considered by the Joint Committee. When I spoke in the debate on 18 February I said that those terms of reference were too finite and I asked the Minister of State, Deputy Dempsey, who is in charge of Dáil reform, to have another look at this. It would be appropriate in certain circumstances to discuss issues pertaining to Northern Ireland. It would also be appropriate to meet the British-Irish Parliamentary group from time to time. I also suggested provision in another committee that we were discussing on that day, the Finance Committee, for private sessions where necessary. I am pleased that the Minister has improved on the terms of reference of this Committee and I compliment him on that. We will now be in a position to discuss in public political issues pertaining to Northern Ireland. Security issues will be discussed in private session because it is important to recognise the sensitivity of the very tragic and difficult situation that exists in the Northern part of our country and take it into account.
We are all aware of the many trouble spots around the world, the most topical at the moment being the former Yugoslavia. There are many other areas where there is not peace and justice. In Ireland we are very much committed to disarmament and the establishment of human rights all around the world. There are many economic problems in the developing world which we can make a major contribution to solving. It is important that we recognise the contribution we make in many trouble spots around the world through our involvement with the peacekeeping forces in the UN. The Irish army have distinguished themselves over the last 40 years and have brought great credit to this country. That is something we should never forget. We should also recognise the contribution of so many Irish people who have worked in the developing world throughout this century in places like Africa and Indonesia. We should recognise their contribution and the support that has been given to them by people in this country.
This committee gives us an opportunity to reach consensus in this House. The more often we reach consensus the better, particularly in regard to foreign affairs. While the terms of reference of this committee are very wide, nowhere is that seen more than in our membership of the European Community. There are many issues in the European Community that are of direct relevance to us including the ratification and implementation of the Maastricht Treaty on European Union, the committee on the regions, the enlargement negotiations, with application for membership by the EFTA states, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and Austria. This is of fundamental importance to the Community. Also important is our relationship with the other countries in Europe, with central and eastern European countries, and our support for reforms in Russia. The free movement of persons around Europe under the Maastricht Treaty is important, as is the tragic situation that exists in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia.
This morning the Tánaiste referred to the economic aspects of foreign policy. This is very important. Nowhere is it more important than in the context of our membership of the European Community whereby many of our day to day activities are the result of European legislation to which we are a party as members. It is important that we give serious consideration to the implementation of the various regulations and legislation that comes from Europe. It is also important to look at the implications of implementing legislation here that may not be implemented in other states. We must look at what impact that might have on the economy. The maintenance and creation of jobs is very important to us. It is important that there be uniformity in the implementation of regulations so that people in the Border towns are not put at a disadvantage vis-à-vis their counterparts on the other side of the Border, particularly since the inception of the Single European Market.
I agree with the Tánaiste that there is no need for a separate European affairs committee at this stage. I appreciate the points he made about duplication and the difficulties of trying to have two separate committees working side by side. The world has become a much smaller place and it would be almost impossible to deal with European affairs in isolation from affairs in the rest of the world. The GATT and its implications for Europe and for Ireland is one question which is of great importance to us.
I welcome the provision for the attendance of MEPs, including MEPs from Northern Ireland. I hope they will avail of the opportunity to attend committee meetings because there are many areas of activity in Europe where the interests of the people of Northern Ireland are closer to the interests of the people here than they are to the people in Great Britain, who presently negotiate on their behalf. For example, agriculture is one area where this would apply.
The International Fund for Ireland is not mentioned specifically in the terms of reference and this is understandable. However, while speaking on foreign affairs I would not like the occasion to pass without commending all those responsible for the administration of the International Fund for Ireland and the tremendous contribution it has made to economic development on both sides of the Border.
I welcome the establishment of this committee. I believe it will help to develop consensus in this House which will be of benefit to us in our deliberations, particularly concerning international relations and the Department of Foreign Affairs generally.
Like the other speakers who have participated in this debate I too welcome the establishment of this Foreign Affairs Committee. It reminds me a little of Val Doonican, who was singing for 20 years or so around the clubs of England and who suddenly became an overnight success after 20 years. The Foreign Affairs Committee is now being set up following not quite 20 years — I am not a Member of this House that long — but certainly following ten or 11 years of aspirational desire for this committee. I thank the Tánaiste and I am sure he is pleased that it falls to him as Minister to introduce the terms of reference for a Foreign Affairs Committee. The Labour Party, along with Fine Gael and other Opposition parties, have consistently requested this committee and indicated the need for it. I agree that people were requesting a Foreign Affairs Committee even when we were in Government in the early eighties. I was disappointed that we did not set up the Foreign Affairs Committee at that time. In fact, the need and impetus for this committee has grown in recent years, particularly with the enormous changes that have taken place internationally. It has been a matter of some embarrassment and amusement to members of parliament from other European countries, but especially to me and the Tánaiste and others, whom we have met during the course of our work over the past number of years, when they discover that we do not have a Foreign Affairs Committee in this House. The lack of such a Foreign Affairs Committee meant that whoever visited this country with information to impart to us, with expertise to share with us and knowledge about their own country and about troubled spots in the world, had no forum at which they could address Members of Parliament here. People such as myself, Deputy Connor and others who were known to have an interest in foreign issues had to be requested to get together an informal group of TDs and Senators to meet with these people. Very often these people were Ministers of State from other countries or senior officials from organisations such as UNICEF and various UN and other world fora. It was embarrassing, to say the least.
Like Deputy O'Hanlon, I welcome the change in the terms of reference to ensure that this committee, now that it is set up, will be as effective, as open and as transparent as it possibly can. I thank the Tánaiste for conceding to a number of suggestions put forward by Fine Gael. I particularly want to thank him for agreeing to the removal of a word from section 11 of the terms of reference which says that:
Any consideration by the Joint Committee, the Select Committee or a sub-Committee of security issues relating to Northern Ireland shall be in private session.
I fully agree with that. It is important that we do not put anybody's life at risk or highlight any security issue that might cause loss of life or limb. The original terms of reference included the word "political". As a member of the Anglo-Irish Parliamentary body, I know from our discussions that nothing can be discussed in relation to Northern Ireland without somebody describing it as political. I was concerned that if the word "political" was included in the terms of reference, various issues which needed to be aired in public might not be. For example, a simple issue such as cross-Border interconnectors for electricity or gas, any issue of that type, would not be discussed becaue of the fear they might be blown up. Even the most mundane practical issues could be labelled political and we might be forbidden to discuss them in public.
It is important for the general public and the media — and I hope they will cover this committee widely — to listen to discussions and briefings on a wide range of issues which will break down further the barriers which exist between the two parts of this island. I am happy that that word has been removed from the terms of reference. There are many other elements of the terms of reference which I believe will help to make this a worthwhile committee.
I wish now to address some other issues which other Deputies have dealt with so that the Minister will be aware of how we want to see this committee work. It is essential that two standing commitees be set up immediately to deal with two major areas of foreign policy. The first concerns EC issues, so that we can deal with the statutory instruments from the EC in a subcommittee. This will mean that the main committee will not become bogged down with minor issues, such as whether or not one can put colorant E in homemade jam. Those issues are important, but they can be dealt with in a sub-committee where they can be examined in detail.
The other area which has been my main area of interest for a number of years is the overseas aid development issue. The only form of Foreign Affairs Committee in this House was the Overseas Aid Development Committee, of which Deputy Connor was a member. A number of members of the Tánaiste's party served on this Committee also and it is widely accepted as being one of the more successful committees. At the time it was set up there was no rush to become a member of this committee. However, by the time it was unfortunately disbanded many people wished they were a member of it because of the effective work it had carried out. There is a need for an ongoing working committee examining Ireland's overseas aid development issues, proposing changes to our programmes and using the additional moneys, which are welcome, in the best possible way.
With regard to section 14 of the terms of reference, if papers or information are requested and a member of Government decides — I assume that means any member of Government, not just the Minister for Foreign Affairs — that the information is confidential and would be prejudicial, could I appeal to the Minister to apply this only on the rarest of occasions. The hands of the committee should not be tied by being told that certain matters are prejudicial. I understand that one or two issues may arise in any one year that would be prejudicial and perhaps be of danger to people if they were to be discussed. But this section should be applied as seldom as possible.
Section 6 deals with the referral of Bills. This refers to Bills initiated by the Minister's Department. However, from time to time Bills will be initiated by other Ministers that are relevant to the Foreign Affairs Committee. For example, the Minister for Defence will introduce the Bill to allow Ireland participate in peacekeeping programmes around the world. This is a crucial issue to be discussed by the Foreign Affairs Committee. Perhaps the Minister could arrange for a Bill such as that to be discussed bilaterally, both in the committee dealing with defence issues and also in the Foreign Affairs Committee, because of the wider implications to our role in international fora, etc. I cannot at present give another example of a Bill, but there might be one on the marine, fisheries or other such issues that would have an effect on our relationships with other countries.
The Collins lot is ambitious.
I am pleased our MEPs will be able to participate in this committee. For too long we have not been able to avail of their expertise and wealth of knowledge. It will enable our MEPs to be more answerable to our people. I am not implying that they do not wish to be answerable but we do not make it easy for them.
I hope an examination will be made of the budget for this committee. People talk about travel and other expenses in relation to committees, but if members of the Committee on Public Accounts can travel to examine public accounts systems outside of Ireland in order to ensure that there are good standard public accounts systems here, there may be occasions when this committee may wish to send one or two of their members to examine certain issues or attend some major conferences, etc. I would like the committee to be able to work effectively and most Parliaments have seperate budgets in respect of their commitees.
I would urge the incoming chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, I gather it will be Deputy Lenihan, to consider the suggestion that invitation might be extended at an early date to ambassadors from the various countries represented here and those accredited to us in London to obtain a briefing on all the countries with which we have relations. That briefing need not be long but should inform members and highlight sensitive issues for discussion, for example defence, neutrality, how we deal with the United Nations etc. There are certain measures that can be taken in relation to those matters which I will discuss with the incoming Chairperson in the hope that we may have an effective and transparent committee and one which is a credit to this Parliament.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle
I now call Deputy Briscoe, who I regret has only three minutes.
I welcome the setting up of this committee. I am very happy to have been notified today that I am a member. I look forward to working with members of other parties on this committee to help contribute towards peace in this very troubled world.
As I have so little time I will refer specifically to the time when I, as Lord Mayor, invited 60 young people to the Mansion House. They were attending an international co-operation peace group meeting hosted by an institution based in Limerick of which Brendan O'Regan is so much a part. Tom O'Donnell, a former Member of this House and a former MEP, is also very much a part of that institute. Of the 60 young people, 20 were from the then Soviet Union, 20 from the USA, 20 from this country — ten from the North and ten from the South. They spent two weeks together. They all looked similar. Nobody could have picked out who was Russian, American or Irish. Once again I saw the futility of war. I thought if the superpowers could set aside 1 per cent of the moneys they spend on armaments to charter aircraft to fly those young people to each other's countries to meet on their own stamping ground, it could have made a contribution to peace in the 21st century.
As the Tánaiste stated in his speech changes have taken place. We no longer have the East-West divide. We have seen the growth of nationalism in many of the former parts of the Soviet Union. In eastern Europe we have seen happenings that are horrendous to all decent thinking people. Questions in relation to enforcement of law have arisen and peace making as opposed to peacekeeping must be considered. The bottom line in becoming involved in any foreign conflict is whether we would like any of our children, our sons and daughters, to be involved in settling a dispute in a far off land. Unless we are satisfied that the peace of the world is involved and what we are doing is in the interest of making peace, we have to be careful that we do not get sucked into a great conflagration in which there are no winners. I am very supportive of those people who say the Serbs who are carrying out policies of genocide must be restrained and punished. The people of the world can no longer stand aside and ignore what is happening.
As the Deputy has such little time the Tánaiste has graciously offered some of his time. The Deputy now has a further two minutes.
I will not take advantage of the extra time but I thank the Tánaiste.
As the Deputy is representing two Deputies in Dublin South-Central he must speak at greater length.
I was always as good as any two Deputies in this House. I say that modestly and, as Deputies opposite would say, there is no one who has more to be modest about.
We are getting two for the price of one.
The Deputy's recount lasted long enough for ten Deputies.
It did, but I was not too happy about that.
The Tánaiste should know all about close counts.
I do not wish to waste the two minutes. We are concerned with peace. This country has a great record. It has never set out to conquer anyone. Any places Irish people have travelled to, whether as missionaries or soldiers of the United Nations, they have gone out to maintain peace and act as a buffer between people who hold opposite views. I hope this committee will operate in a balanced way, without prejudice, and that everyone who comes before it will get a fair hearing. I appreciate the Tánaiste's offer of extra time.
I thank the Deputies who have participated in this debate. Their contributions which were both serious and reflective underline the seriousness with which we are approaching the establishment of the Foreign Affairs Committee of this House. The tone of the contributions was constructive and will augur well for the future of the committee. As most Members have said, it is long overdue and has a very important role to play in the development of foreign policy. It also has a role in ensuring that the Government will be well informed of the views of all Members, particularly the committee members who will have a particular interest in the many complex issues involved in foreign affairs.
A number of speakers have outlined their views on the substantive issues of European union, neutrality, United Nations reform, development aid and the situation in the former Yugoslavia. I agree with the view that these should be the main priority issues to be discussed by the committee as a matter of urgency. Some interesting points were made on the various issues and I am in agreement with many of them. In regard to others there is room for some disagreement. Given the spectrum of issues covered I do not think that it would be appropriate at this stage to provide a substantive response in the context of this debate. There will be ample opportunity both at the committee and on the floor of this House for the issues to be debated and explored in a considered way.
When I, on behalf of the Labour Party many years ago, called for the establishment of a foreign affairs committee I have never had any doubt that this would be an extremely burdened committee in terms of work. There is an extraordinary workload for this committee. Perhaps the workload is heavier because it is a new committee. Our discussion today highlights many issues for the committee's urgent attention.
A valid point was made by a number of speakers that the committee should have resources to enable it to deal with its extended workload. I am sympathetic to the requirement in relation to resources but at the same time, as Deputies have acknowledged, there are definite budgetary constraints. This has been acknowledged by most Deputies and the resources issue is one which must be looked into in the context of the committees of this House. This did not arise today nor yesterday. There has been a general level of dissatisfaction in regard to resourcing the committees and I will be willing to participate in discussions either at party level or with the Whips to ensure that the committees are not hampered by lack of resources.
Various viewpoints were expressed on fundamental issues regarding Northern Ireland, touching on the future of the North and the proper objectives of Government policy in that regard. Such issues need to be dealt with in a careful and considered manner and not in the course of the debate today. I note Deputy McDowell's acknowledgment of the thin line that exists between political and security issues in the context of Northern Ireland. This interlinking of the two aspects is one of the reasons I initially felt that both political and security issues should be discussed by the committee in private sessions. It is important that the committee should show sensitivity and good judgment in deciding the political issues appropriate for public discussion and security matters requiring private discussion. I hope there will be maximum flexibility in that regard and, as long as we all approach the matter constructively and with the right attitude, there should be no attempt to limit discussion on those issues. It is important that there should be as much discussion as possible among the parties on the many complex and pressing issues in regard to Northern Ireland.
I sympathise with Deputy Bruton's frustration at the delays in the production of indexed reports of Dáil proceedings and the intention behind his proposed amendment to paragraph (5). However, as he indicated, his amendment is relevant to all Dáil proceedings, not particularly to the Foreign Affairs Committee. That matter should be discussed between the Whips to come up with a satisfactory solution which would apply to the proceedings of the House and all its committees. We should have an overall solution rather than an ad hoc one for a particular Committee. This matter must be addressed by the Whips.
It is a function of the House and that is where we are at present.
I agree it is a function of the House and it must be addressed in regard to all committees. A particular committee should not be dealt with on an individual basis.
Deputy Bruton also proposed an amendment to paragraph 17 to give members of the Irish delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe the same rights of participation in the committee as Irish Members of the European Parliament. I draw the Deputy's attention to paragraph 16 which provides that any Member of Dáil Eireann may attend meetings of the joint committee and take part in proceedings without having a right to vote. Since all members of the Irish delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe are Members of this House, the existing motion already gives them the rights proposed in Deputy Bruton's amendment. In those circumstances, I ask the Deputy to withdraw his amendments.
Deputy Bruton's amendment gives me an opportunity to underline the importance of our participation in the Council of Europe, a point well made by the Deputy. That is a central element of our foreign policy. The Council embodies the common commitment of its members to democratic values and to the vital role of human rights in any democratic system. Its importance to the new democracies of Eastern Europe cannot be overstated.
It is imperative that this committee should avoid a quick fix or sound bite approach. In my opening statement, I underlined the complexity of many of the problems confronting us in the area of foreign policy. If those issues were black and white we would not require a foreign affairs committee. However, they are not, as Deputies who will be on that committee are well aware. The issues are extremely complex and that is why the establishment of this committee is long overdue. I assure the House that I will give every co-operation to this committee and I know that will apply also to the Minister of State who has had a long interest in foreign affairs and overseas development aid, as acknowledged by Deputy Owen. I look forward to working with that committee, in the interests of everybody in this House, and establishing a concrete basis for the development of foreign policy for this country.
To avoid putting this matter to a vote, will the Tánaiste agree that by accepting my amendment in regard to the Council of Europe he would give a symbolic reference to that council in the motion which would not create any difficulty in regard to the administration of the committee's terms of reference? It is true that members of the Council can attend meetings, but it is important that the Council of Europe is mentioned somewhere in the motion to indicate its relevance. It is in that context I put down the amendment rather than for operational purposes. In that context, will the Tánaiste accept the amendment?
In the spirit of generosity in which I intend to conduct my business in regard to this committee, I can probably concede on that amendment, but from a practical point of view, it does not make much difference. Like Deputy Bruton, I want to emphasise the importance of the Council of Europe and I will accept the amendment.
Thank you. I am willing to withdraw amendment No. 1, which relates to the reporting issue, on the basis that the Minister will accept amendment No. 2 regarding the Council of Europe.
We will get computerisation for all the committees soon.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 2:
In paragraph (17), to insert "and Members of the Irish delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe" after "(including Northern Ireland)" and after "European Parliament" where it thirdly occurs.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
