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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jun 1993

Vol. 432 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Protection of Occupiers of Land Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill proposes to update the outdated law on landowners' liability by protecting farmers and landlords from liability to entrants where there is no charge for entry to land. I am referring mainly to people who enter land without authorisation. Many farmers have been forced to protect themselves from liability by closing off access to their lands. This is most unfortunate and will have serious knock-on effects both on tourism revenue and employment in rural areas.

Various Ministers and Governments have made promises to deal with this issue over the years. Yet farmers and other land owners still remain seriously exposed to paying crippling costs for injuries sustained by people while on their lands. People have been injured after gaining unauthorised access to lands and this had led to litigation against the landowner. This is an unfortunate situation which must be addressed. I hope that good will come out of the debate on this Bill, the provisions of which are worthwhile and should be recognised.

If the Government and the party I represent are serious about developing the potential of tourism there is no doubt that a Bill like this which has merit must be taken on board and the Law Reform Commission will need to put forward the necessary recommendations quickly to put a Bill in place that will be in the best interests of rural areas.

Farming is very important in rural areas. However, farm machinery and other aspects of farming life pose risks. It is hard to prohibit children, whether from the city, town or neighbouring farm entering land or property because they like to see the animals and crops on the farm. For that reason we must recognise the problem. It is very serious when law abiding citizens are refused entry to a farm holding. I come from a rural area and I am opposed to depriving others from entering my land because this is a right we enjoyed down through the years. We have a right to walk and enjoy the natural beauty of our countryside. It is part of our heritage and one of our many attractions too numerous to mention. If the problem is not addressed, however, it will create a greater divide between urban and rural people. Many townspeople drive out to the country on a Sunday afternoon and it is not reasonable to prohibit them from entering property.

Field sports are also very important — indeed, a coursing Bill will be introduced shortly in this House. We have open coursing meetings and many people come in a group to hunt and shoot. In many cases while the members of the group may have cover others accompanying them to participate in the sport may not, which leads to problems. The clubs have informed the farmers that they have indemnified themselves for a large sum of money but the odd person who is not a member of a club participates and this creates a problem. I understand also that it is becoming prohibitive to get insurance cover to indemnify the club or organisation against the problems that can arise. When I spoke the last evening I mentioned that many farmers and property owners have insurance cover to the tune of £2 million but I understand that is not sufficient.

I wish this Bill success. I hope the better parts of the Bill will be incorporated in the new legislation when it is introduced and I look forward to seeing it at an early date.

Ba mhaith liom a chur in iúl ar dtús go bhfuil sé i gceist agam mo chuid ama a roinnt idir mé féin agus an Teachta Clohessy agus deich nóiméad a thabhairt do Fhine Gael ag an deireadh.

An bhfuil sé sin aontaithe? Aontaithe.

The whole question of farmers and other occupiers having a liability for accidents to people who may come on to their land uninvited has been under discussion now for far too long and cries out for immediate action to deal with the situation once and for all.

The Progressive Democrats Party recognised the urgent need for action in this matter when we proposed its inclusion in the Programme for Government 1989-1993. Unfortunately, the Minister responsible failed to bring forward the necessary legislation on public liability and it remained as an unfulfilled commitment when the life of that Government was brought to an abrupt end by the outrageous and unfounded allegations by the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds last October.

With the increase in the number of claims against farmers by people who were in effect trespassing on their land, the situation became intolerable and has resulted in farmers in many areas now erecting signs forbidding people to cross their lands. This is indeed an unfortunate development as it has been traditional over the centuries that farmers welcomed people on to their lands who wished to enjoy walking in the beautiful country side, or hunting, shooting and fishing.

The Progressive Democrats Party fully supports the Fine Gael Bill which we believe would be very effective in achieving the desired objective of protecting all land owners from any claims that might arise. There is no doubt that the law in this area is outdated and archaic in giving illegal trespassers and others the right to claim compensation for any injuries that might befall them while they are on a farmer's holding even though, as in most cases, the farmers would not even know such a person was on their property, not to mind the fact that they would be there without his permission.

The current position is indefensible, it defies logic, it may not have mattered in the past when the courts took a different view but now that the courts have decided that a real liability rests with the farmer in certain circumstances, it is clear that immediate action will have to be taken to alleviate the situation. Every day lost in amending the law in this area leaves tens of thousands of farmers open to serious liability way beyond their personal capacity to meet the type and size of claims that might be taken against them. Instant legislation can be produced by the parliamentary draftsman and approved by Cabinets in certain circumstances when it is desirable to do so, so there is really no justification for delaying the bringing forward of urgent legislation now required in this area.

Too often in the past, good Bills such as this have been rejected by Governments on the grounds that they were going to bring forward their own Bill to deal more comprehensively with the issue in question. We know from experience, however, that the promised legislation is often delayed for years or does not deal with the matter as expected when it is brought forward or indeed is never dealt with at all. I compliment Deputy Deenihan and his Fine Gael front bench colleagues for taking this initiative. It is timely and effective and deals satisfactorily with the issue. The Progressive Democrats Party will support this Bill and will vote for it at the conclusion of the debate.

I appeal to the Government parties to support this Bill and not to play the old political game so beloved of parties in power and so scorned by parties in Opposition, of voting down Opposition Bills on the pretext of pending legislation being prepared by themselves. The most recent example of this is the voting down of the Progressive Democrats Party Bill combating vandalism, loitering and unlawful assembly. Yet the promised Government Bill has not yet appeared. People have been injured and communities have been living in fear because of the lack of adequate Garda powers to deal with certain situations as was proposed in the Progressive Democrats Party Bill. However, the Government rejected the proposal when the vote was taken. Let us hope we will not have a repeat of that small minded attitude when the vote is taken on this Bill tonight.

Last week the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy discussed the Estimates for the Department of Tourism and Trade in a very unreal atmosphere because of the inability of the Minister for Tourism and Trade to indicate to the committee whether this Bill would be accepted by the Government at tonight's vote.

It is a well known fact that access to the countryside by tourists for sporting and recreation activities contributes about £200 million to the Irish economy, a great part of which is actually spent in rural communities. This major section of our tourist industry is immediately under threat because of the decision of many farmers to refuse access to, or crossing of their lands, by third parties who do not have personal liability insurance taken out.

The tourist season of 1993 is already upon us and still no action from the Government to protect farmers against these liability claims. It is clear that there will be widespread chaos particularly if the action of Clare farmers in the Burren region is repeated nationwide.

This whole question of public liability has already become a nightmare for other owner-occupiers in the State who have been faced with massive insurance premiums to protect themselves against injury claims. One cannot blame individual farmers therefore if they refuse access to their lands in order to avoid similar heavy claims from potential trespassers.

The solution is clear as set out in this Bill — farmers and other land owners must have no liability for any person who comes on to their lands or trespasses for a purpose for which the farmer has no commercial interest.

With Common Agricultural Policy reform introducing set-aside, it is clear that more and more farmers are going to have to turn to agri-tourism to supplement their incomes. Agri-tourism by its very nature offers an invitation to people to enter onto farmland, so the inevitable increase in third party liability will occur at a faster rate.

The farming organisations have been expressing serious concern about this matter for a long time now and, as I understand it, the IFA position is that they require; first, that no duty of care be owed to trespassers; second, that licensees — invited visitors, picnickers, casual hunters, fishermen etc. in whom the farmer has no economic interest — be treated as trespassers; and, third, that invitees — postmen, shopkeepers, etc. — be afforded a reasonable duty of care, subject to certain conditions.

The position regarding licensees is of particular interest because a more complex situation arises where the claimant is of a category that farmers have traditionally welcomed and wish to continue to welcome on their lands, such as hunts, shooters, fishermen, tourists, sports bodies, ramblers, walkers, etc. However, these groups may unintentionally represent a major financial threat in the case of an accident.

The IFA have expressed the view that this area needs to be clearly defined so as to give a solid basis for the infrastructure of farm business and agri-tourism in the future. Among the features they list as being required are: first, notices and signs pointing out dangers should include liability even towards children; second, voluntary assumption of risk be accepted in practice and in law by all participants as in English law; third, protection from mischievous legislation from men of straw; the costs of defending such cases can be penal especially in cases where the litigant has small means or is sought after by certain solicitors; and, fourth, duties of care by the occupier should be balanced by duties of responsibilities by the third party.

The IFA have also highlighted the need for new legislation to cover voluntary assumption of risk, children trespassing and historical buildings specifically excluded from commercial insurance. There is a need to ensure that there is an onus of self-responsibility on the public in general while ensuring that land owners adequately warn potential trespassers of real dangers.

The Progressive Democrats believe the time has come for a different balance to be struck between the "rights" of trespassers and the rights of landowners. The law, in our view, has parted company with commonsense when landowners are held liable to foreseeable trespassers, whether children or adults. In our view, a landowner should owe no duty to trespassers, expect the duty not to create intentionally a man-trap.

For licensees, those entering lands or buildings with permission but not in the economic interest of the owner, the law should merely impose a minimum duty of care, to warn them against known and unusual dangers where such a warning is reasonable. I urge the Minister and his colleagues to support this Bill when it comes to a vote here tonight.

I should say at the outset that the law in this area is so unusual and ridiculous that many people simply do not believe it. It is completely out of balance and cries out for reform. That is why the Progressive Democrats fully support the Fine Gael initiative and I deplore the intention of the Government parties to vote against it. It is only commonsense to state that if I enter somebody's land I do so at my own risk and must accept responsibility in the matter. Clearly, that is what the law should state. The existing situation is totally unfair to landowners in general and to farmers in particular.

As a farmer, I know the sense of outrage and frustration felt by farmers up and down the country because of this totally out of date legal situation. It is unbelievable in this day and age that if somebody forcibly enters my land I would be liable for any injury he may sustain. For example, if a trespasser or poacher were to break a leg while trespassing on my land, I would be liable under existing law to compensate them. Could any law be more stupid or unfair than that?

In certain parts of the country there are particular problems. For example, there are many national monuments which the general public rightly wish to visit. In my own constituency an archaeological site, a prehistoric site, is visited by approximately 8,000 people per year, including archaeological students. It was stated by Professor Kelly to be older than Jerusalem. Visiting such areas will have to stop because farmers will be forced, or will be requested by their insurance companies, to erect trespass notices. To deprive the youth of our country and those from overseas from visiting such areas is something I cannot agree with.

Farmers who have public liability insurance to cover accidents which may befall members of their own family or people who are legitimately on their lands find that the premiums are increasing all the time. The same applies to gunclubs and angling clubs; insurance cover for their members is increasing on an annual basis. Imagine the ironic situation facing a farmer where people may shoot or fish on his lands. The person legally entitled to be on the land will be covered under the insurance policy of the gunclub, or the angling club, but the poacher will not be covered and is entitled under our existing crazy law to claim off the farmer for any accident he may have there. The situation has now become so serious that it is also affecting the holding of field days and other events to help raise money for charitable and other purposes. Quite simply, the public liability insurance costs which the organisers of these events face are so high that they make the running of these events uneconomic.

For all those reasons the Progressive Democrats have long supported major reform in this area so as to strike a reasonable and fair balance, in effect to have a law whereby people who enter lands accept full responsibility for their actions and are liable to look after any costs they may incur by doing so. That was the reason we included a specific section in our agricultural policy document prior to last November's general election where we proposed that members of the public entering farmland should accept the consequent liability. We made clear that we supported legislative reform of the law on occupiers' liability to safeguard farmers and landowners.

It is easy for people to say "We will bring in our own Bill". This is a straightforward Bill and I congratulate Fine Gael on introducing it. There are very few ways one can get around it. I appeal to the Minister to consider accepting this Bill.

The casual dismissal of this Bill by the Government is a further example of the creeping arrogance of Fianna Fáil and Labour that has emerged in recent weeks. It is regrettable that the massive majority on the Government benches will crush this positive initiative undertaken by Fine Gael in response to a very serious defect in the law of occupiers' liability. The response of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, last week is remarkable only in its similarity to that of his Fianna Fáil predecessors — let us await the report of the Law Reform Commission.

The extraordinary sequence of delay in this matter proves beyond doubt that the Government has no commitment to the reform of the law. This Government stands indicted for, on the one hand, refusing to accept the urgency of law reform in this area while, on the other, kicking the rural community in the teeth by the introduction of an across the board 2 per cent probate tax and preparing to deny the farming community access to Structural Funds, placing the whole concept of headage payments in jeopardy. Landowners, and farmers in particular, were instructed for years by the former Commissioner, Ray MacSharry, and his successive mouthpieces in Agriculture House to curtail farming activities and seek a living off the land outside mainstream agriculture.

CAP reform will have the effect of divesting many farmers of sufficient income to command a viable holding. One of the most attractive methods of all farm income is from agri-tourism. Any farmer permitting the public on to his land under the present legal system is courting disaster. How can the Government, Ministers McCreevy, Walsh and Hyland opposite, promote rural tourism, call for increased numbers of people to enter private lands for the purposes of visiting monuments, resorts of historical or archaeological significance, or in pursuit of hunting, shooting or fishing activities in the knowledge that the owner of the land has an unduly high burden of responsibility towards such visitors or uninvited guests? For generations members of the farming community have welcomed the public on to private lands. High insurance premia and a genuine fear of claims is changing that position beyond recognition. Unless action is taken to change the law our tourist industry will suffer, sporting, leisure and recreational clubs will fail to flourish and expand and the already high level of frustration being experienced throughout the country will give way to helplessness and bitterness, fostering an unhealthy climate of aggravation between urban and rural communitites.

How many claims against landowners will it take to spur this Government into action? The Fine Gael Bill eminently promoted by my colleague, Deputy Deenihan, is a perfectly reasonable and sensible response to the fears of the rural community. The official footdragging in this matter is sharply focused when contrasted with the speedy introduction of a tax amnesty, the 1 per cent levy, or the all round availability of condoms, all of which were agreed and introduced by the Government without delay on the part of Fianna Fáil or Labour.

By rejecting this Bill tonight the Government is sweeping the matter under the carpet and sending a blunt and dangerous signal to farmers and those in rural areas. In the dying minutes of this debate I urge the Minister of State, Deputy Hyland, and the senior Ministers, Deputies Taylor and Walsh, to accept this Fine Gael Bill as it stands. If there are defects—which I doubt—they can be thrashed out on Committee Stage. This matter has been festering for a number of years. Successive Ministers for Agriculture have neglected their duty to take on board the need to change the law in this regard. How long more are members of rural communities and land occupiers going to suffer this matter without an adequate Government response?

It is unfair that farmers must lie awake at night worrying about being sold out of home and farm because of accidents that may occur on their land. It is daft that trespassers who come on to other people's property can haul such property owners into court if they hurt themselves while tresspassing. It is crazy that a country which prides itself as a leading tourist destination will not change its laws so that free access can be gained to scenic and other areas without exposing the landowners to huge risks. They are the basic principles on which Fine Gael proposed this Bill.

Our law on occupiers' liability is an ass and this did not happen overnight. Court decisions over a number of years have highlighted the problem. The people in the front line — the landowner and the farmer — are crying out for a solution and yet again the Government is paralysed into inaction and, worse still, is prepared to shoot down with its massive majority an attempt by Fine Gael to resolve the problem. My colleague, Deputy Deenihan, has proposed a reasonable solution to this problem and this Government merely gives us sympathy and excuses but no action.

It is an indictment of our democratic and legislative process that every Member of this House can agree on the need for change in our law and yet a Bill proposing such change can be voted down without any alternative being put in its place. What in the name of goodness is this House for? What are we elected for? We are elected to legislate and the Government should not give us the excuse of waiting for a Law Reform Commission report. Talk about "Waiting for Godot", the Law Reform Commission is overloaded with work. It covers everything from murder and rape cases on the cirminal law side to the procedures for debt collection on the civil law side. The need for change is evident. We do not need the Law Reform Commission to tell us of the need for change. The Government is using the Law Reform Commission solely as an excuse because it has not the will, the wit or the initiative to come up with a counter proposal nor has it the sense of fair play to accept Deputy Deenihan's Bill and, if necessary, amend it on Committee Stage.

In the meantime, with the continuing delay proposed by this Government, farmers will remain at risk. Not unnaturally, many of them will bar access to the coastline and other scenic areas. I do not want to see that happening as I come from a tourist area. I want to see tourism develop. It hurts me to see tourists or locals refused access to our coastline or scenic areas, but it is understandable that if a farmer believes he is exposed to risk he will refuse people access to his lands. I have had experience of this in a number of instances in my constituency — if Deputy Deenihan will forgive me — the leading tourist spot in the country. Apart from our coastline, we have many historical monuments, castles and archaeological sites access to which in many instances is doubtful.

Is that a reference to Deputy Sheehan?

I had better ignore that comment from Deputy Cox.

I am not historical.

The tourist season is just getting into full swing and the Government refuses to take a totally cost free step, a step which would not involve a cost to the Exchequer. It would be a major boost for tourism if the Government was prepared to take this step.

By refusing to accept the Second Stage of this Bill and working out any necessary amendments on Committee Stage, effectively, the Government is condemning our farmers to a further period of uncertainty. In a booklet entitled "The Farmer and the Law", published by the IFA in 1990, the position of farmers was summed up in the words of Séamus Heaney in "The King of the Ditchbacks" as follows:

As if a trespasser unbolted a forgotten gate and ripped the growth tangling its lower bars.

I am haunted by this stealthy rustling the unexpected spoor the pollen settling.

Our farmers will continue to be haunted by this fear unless and until the Government is prepared to substitute action for words and unless and until this Government is prepared to follow the example of Fine Gael in putting a Bill on occupier liability before this House.

It can easily be said by Government speakers that the answer for farmers is to take out insurance, but people have problems in paying insurance premiums which are high because of the high level of claims. A farmer on whose land is an archaeological site to which access is over stony territory, or an ancient castle that is crumbling, will be greatly concerned at the possibility of a claim against him; and there have been such claims. In many instances farmers in such circumstances cannot get insurance. A constituent of mine told me that his premium for public liability insurance had increased by 300 per cent in the last couple of years and he just could not afford the increased premium. Asking farmers to take out insurance is not the answer to the problem. It may be possible in some instances, but some risks will not now be covered by the insurance companies. In other instances farmers cannot afford to pay the premium.

Another aspect that has not been touched on to any great degree in this debate is the fact that it is not just farmers who are at risk, but every householder. Every person who owns anything is at risk. If somebody comes into one's garden in the town or the city and happens to hurt themselves then the question of occupier liability also arises. Although the focus is on farms, which is natural because of the kind of terrain one can meet with on farms such as Deputy Sheehan and I have down in our constituency——

Not farms at all, but congested holdings.

As long as Deputy Sheehan and I do not get too congested we will be all right. I want to emphasise that the ordinary householder is also at risk when people come into his or her house or garden. Accidents happen and in certain circumstances the householder could be exposed to claims. I am a bit rusty on the law now, but I recall some years ago a case where a burglar breaking into a house suffered injury and had the audacity to bring a claim in court that a trap had been set for him in the house. How long are we going to allow this question of litigation, of not being prepared, to continue without dealing with these ridiculous situations that can arise and have arisen and certainly will arise in the future unless we take steps to prevent it?

My colleague, Deputy Deenihan, has produced a very sensible Bill. He is not a lawyer, but he has taken this issue by the scruff of its neck and proposed a reasonable solution. He has openly said that he is prepared to listen to reasonable amendments on Committee Stage. How much more reasonable can Deputy Deenihan and the Fine Gael Party be? People on all sides of this House will compliment Deputy Deenihan, but the best compliment that could be paid to Deputy Deenihan is to ensure that this Bill goes through its Second Reading tonight and then we can give an answer to those people throughout this country who are worrying about the continuing problem of occupier liability.

Deputies Davern and Ferris rose.

I am placed in the invidious position of having to choose between two colleagues from my own constituency. The Deputies rose together. I feel I should choose the senior Member, Deputy Noel Davern. I understand Deputy Davern is sharing time with Deputies Ó Cuív and Ferris.

I have listened to Deputy O'Keeffe and I sympathise with anybody who has ever suffered the insult of being claimed against by a person injured while walking across their land. This is the most despicable type of claim that is being made in the last number of years.

As a young man I used to go off hunting every Saturday morning with a couple of dogs trying to catch a rabbit or a fox. I was never greatly successful but I got some exercise and was welcomed by the farmers and my enjoyment of rural living was tremendous in those years. As a landowner today I extend the hand of friendship to anyone who wants to cross my land, to anyone who wants to hunt on my land, to anyone who wants to shoot on my land. Until recently the problem of claims did not arise. I am sorry Deputies Flanagan and O'Keeffe are leaving because I want to say something about them.

The Deputy can leave the compliment for us.

This problem did not arise until the legal profession started touting for business and advertising in newspapers and on radio that if people have an accident they should go to see their solicitor and that they will make money and take the landowner to the cleaners.

I am sad to think that this is also the case in schools today. If I broke my arm at school or on the football pitch it was an accident, a fact of life and part of growing up. It was part of the risk one took. Unfortunately today the barrack room lawyers in the pubs and communities will tell people to sue, that farmers, schools etc., have insurance. Not once did I hear Members of the Opposition, from Fine Gael or the Progressive Democrats, mention the legal profession as being to blame because of their public touting for business. I know that remarks about the Judiciary are not welcome in this House, but the decisions of some of the judges leave a lot to be desired. It is ridiculous that last week a dog was awarded £4,000 because he had suffered trauma after a car accident. The hypocrisy of the outburst against the proposed tax amnesty last week is exceeded only by the hypocrisy of those in our society who go around looking for reasons to claim. The legal profession top even that hypocrisy by touting for business. On my way out here I saw on the South Circular Road an advertisement telling people that, if they had an accident, the solicitor's office was across the road.

Many responsible bodies who use land at the moment, including the gun clubs, have their own insurance. My understanding had been that no claim could ever be made against a landowner unless a plough or some other item of machinery had been left across a pathway. Thankfully, many claims have failed in court; but the fact that these claims are being brought means that we will have to ban people from entering our land if this threat continues. I admire Deputy Deenihan for bringing forward this Bill, but I am worried that the people dealing with this, the Law Reform Commission, are the people who will make recommendations to the Government; and the commission is made up of solicitors and barristers, the £2,500 a day men. Naturally it is in their interests to insist that there may be a legal problem if, when crossing somebody's land, you put your foot in a rabbit hole and break your ankle.

As a person involved in the equestrian area, my understanding was that anybody who got up on a horse for their own enjoyment did so at their own risk and if they fell it was part of the action, part of the excitement associated with the sport. If somebody breaks an arm or leg while playing on a GAA field the attitude is to sue the club for damages. The club is made up of ordinary people within the community who have to pay extremely high insurance costs. I do not blame the insurance companies for charging high premiums because the payment of damages in respect of public liability is much greater than the amount collected by way of premiums. However, I blame the legal profession who have mounted a campaign to bring claims in respect of public liability to court. It was unheard of if one injured oneself on a rural farm to sue the owner for damages. There is a mentality whereby people who have accidents automatically consider they are entitled to compensation, regardless of negligence on their part. Deputy O'Keeffe said that if a burglar slipped on a loose roof tile and broke an ankle while trying to gain entry to a house, even though the burglar intended a grave injustice to the house owner and family the onus for damages rests with the owner. From that viewpoint I was delighted recently to read that a number of judges here throwing out claims against publicans, where a person slipped on a wet floor in a public house, on the basis that the person had consumed too much alcohol.

It is time for corrective action in regard to the legal profession. Legal fees make up 25 per cent of court costs and that is why insurance companies wish to settle cases out of court. In court cases the solicitor and barrister take their share of the costs. There is a famous saying in my area. A man while working on a site fell into a hole in Aughinish, County Limerick. He received an award from the court, he later received his solicitor's fee and said to him: "Who fell into the hole, you or me?". That is part of the legal scene at present. The costs involved include the payment of the solicitor's fee on the defence side and the money for the solicitor is on a "no foal no fee" basis. There is no cost to the plaintiff. Plaintiffs who approach their solicitors may be encouraged to take cases to court as they will be guaranteed they will not incur any costs. The attitude has developed to take the individual or the insurance company to court and make everybody pay. We are becoming a dishonest nation in regard to claims. Illegal claims resulting from damage through negligence are being made. I will continue to open my lands to anyone who wishes to cross them for pleasure, hunting and shooting, etc., although I have been advised not to by the insurance company because of the criminal claims made against farmers in the area. It is sad that this practice should continue. I am sorry that our island, a nation of people who enjoy all types of sport and access to all areas should be restricted in this way.

I hope the Government will introduce legislation in this area when the Law Reform Commission makes its recommendations. However, I am suspicious of the Law Reform Commission and TDs because they have a vested interest in this area. We should have a simple law such as that proposed by Deputy Deenihan stipulating that one has no right to make a claim if one enters someone's land, back garden, or house voluntarily. The risk of public liability damages will prevent farmers being friendly towards people wishing to gain access to their lands. I lay the blame for this on the legal profession and judges who have made very strange decisions. It is not possible to trust people proposing law reform — when they have a vested interest in the outcome. Perhaps a group of ordinary citizens should propose reform in this area. I hope the Government will ensure that the illegal, unjustified and immoral claims against people who allow others access to their lands will cease.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Ó Cuív.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am surprised that Fine Gael intend to press this legislation to a vote, particularly having regard to the commitment given by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, on this matter. Last week he complimented Deputy Deenihan and said it is precisely because of the complexity of the law, its state of development, the range of opposing interests and the need for comparative studies to be taken into account like the position in other countries, that the matter was referred to the commission for its consideration.

Put on the long finger.

I was not prepared to wait for three years.

I am not sure if Fine Gael wish other Members to have a view on this matter.

Deputy Ferris without interruption.

The Minister also said that when he received the report from the Law Reform Commission if it was in line with the Bill proposed in Private Members' Time by Deputy Deenihan he would be prepared to take this Bill on board, amend it and proceed accordingly. Because this Bill like many others, was mentioned in the Programme for Government it is open to the Opposition at any time to address the issue and to introduce a Bill which may meet our requirements. We would like Bills introduced by way of Private Members' Business to be adequate. The Minister has suggested that instead of putting this Bill to a vote as Fine Gael wish, it would be better to adjourn the debate on it at the appropriate time and reactivate it if it meets the requirements of the Law Reform Commission. Perhaps that is the right way to proceed. I do not have any disagreement with the need for reform in the law in this area.

We have had discussion with many people in our constituencies, members of the farming organisations and the National Association of Game Councils, a responsible body with over 22,000 members throughout the country, who are concerned about the present position which has arisen as a result of landowners' predicaments. There is uncertainty in this area as a result of recent court decisions. It is important for the Government to bring forward legislation as soon as possible to clarify the rights and duties of landowners and occupiers in respect of injuries to people who use their land. Not all land users can read warning signs or are aware of dangers. As the House is aware there is a commitment to reform the law in respect of occupiers' liability. While I share the concern expressed by occupiers, much of this legislation needs clarification. I am surprised the Opposition wish to vote on this Bill as it will be defeated.

We want to win the vote.

I understand the Minister expects to receive a report from the Law Reform Commission within two or three weeks. Is it not reasonable to expect that if it wants this Bill to be considered it should await that report?

We could defer the Committee Stage for three weeks.

We would not do as the Progressive Democrats did in Government in this regard——

We could defer Committee Stage to accommodate the Deputy.

I do not like people preaching to me, especially when they had an opportunity to address this problem but did not. Let us consider the publication of this Bill if that is the wish of Fine Gael. Let us consider the report put forward. Deputy Ahearn is probably consulted by the same group of people in South Tipperary as I am. All of these people are aware of the problem. They know also that a simple Bill such as this does not really address the issue. How could it if the Minister who has the responsibility for bringing the legislation forward is required to go to the Law Reform Commission irrespective of the vested interests which Deputy Davern says that body has. At least it has a competence in the area of private property of the rights to private property and the rights of other people to use land for recreational and sporting purposes etc. What is involved here is a wide area. It is not simply confined to farm land. What it means is that the greater the benefit accruing to the occupier of land from the person who comes on to the land, the greater is the liability of the occupier. That is the present position. It applies to people who enter land which is categorised under various headings such as the contractual entrant, namely, a person who enters land under a term of contract between himself or herself and the occupier or an invitee, a person whose visit to the land confers a benefit for the occupier, or a licensee who is permitted also on the land but how, during his or her visit, does not benefit the occupier. Finally, there is what has been identified as the trespasser. Who are trespassers? Are they children? Do Fine Gael consider that every child of school going age or younger is able to read warning signs about danger on land?

My understanding, following consultations with representations from the farming organisations and the National Association of the Game Council, is that they are extremely concerned about this matter.

The Deputy must be speaking to the wrong people. He is misleading the House.

Like Deputy Deenihan or Deputy Ahearn, I too, have consultations with various people. I represent the same constituency as some of those Deputies who are heckling me now. I meet the same people as they meet and those people are anxious that this matter be dealt with properly and not in the piecemeal way this Bill suggests.

That is why I am putting the Bill to a vote, to give the Deputy an opportunity to express his hypocrisy.

If we are to have legislation to deal with the matter properly why not leave it until such time as the Law Reform Commission makes its report?

Committee Stage after the Law Reform Commission's report?

The Deputy should have accepted my offer.

Perhaps Deputy Deenihan's Bill is the answer to all the problems in this area; if that should seem to be the case, the Minister has given a commitment to allow the Bill go forward and be amended accordingly.

I do not know what the Deputy will do.

There have been references to compromise but so far as Fine Gael is concerned, if what they want in terms of Private Members' Bills is not taken on board, there is no compromise. In that sense it is futile to make a constructive contribution to a debate on an issue where many of us share the same concerns as Fine Gael. Our concern was so great that we included this issue in the Programme for Government, unlike the Progressive Democrats who did not consider it worth while addressing it.

The Deputy referred to the Minister for the Law Reform Commission to make its report. That is what the last Government did also so what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Molaim an Teachta Deenihan as ucht an Bill seo a chur faoin ár mbráid. Tar éis go mbeadh lochtanna agam air, tá an-áthas orm go bhfuil an t-ábhar á phlé agus go bhfuil sé tugtha os comhair an phobail, mar is le ró-fhada go bhfuil ceist an árachais i gcoitinne sa tír seo fágtha ar leataobh.

I welcome this debate, and I am sure all Members of this House feel it is about time we grasped the nettle of the whole insurance problem. I had hoped that the broader spectrum of the problem relating to insurance here would be tackled once and for all.

As a Member of Seanad Éireann I tried many times to raise this issue, not to have it dealt with in a piecemeal manner but in the form of a total review of the present position. We are now pricing ourselves into a position whereby it is vital to have reform in respect of employers' liability, of the liability of those running shows, football clubs and playgrounds, of householders' liability, general public liability and occupiers' liability. This also extends to the area of car insurance.

We had a debate in the Seanad on insurance in which both sides of the argument were put forward. We addressed the question of the right of a person on the one hand to genuine compensation in cases where the fault lies with the owner-occupier employer, etc and, on the other hand, the need to provide cover at a reasonable cost for those people who make their premises available, who provide employment and who give their time voluntarily to football clubs, etc. was addressed.

In order to tackle this problem we must first reform the law in this area. Many of Deputy Davern's comments ring true with me. A compensation culture has been created whereby if someone gets hurt in an accident they automatically assume they are entitled to compensation. If one were to do a vox pop one would probably find a general belief that proof of negligence was not required in compensation claims cases. Most people do not understand that one must prove negligence in such cases, at least in theory.

If we fail to address this problem now the protection available to the public may not be available in the future. We must ensure that those who genuinely suffer injury due to the negligence of another person are protected also. This is where the problems arise. No Member of this House would disagree that an award should be made in court in respect of a child who had fallen from a playground barrier at night and sustains injury. I have always believed that concept of not having to prove negligence, as understood by the ordinary person, is a nonsense.

I wonder whether the fault lies with the law or with the interpretation of the law. When we change the law we change also the culture that goes with that law. People should be encouraged to take out personal accident policies to cover themselves against risk of injury while those charged with the responsibility of applying the law should take note of the changes in culture that follow changes in the law.

Comprehensive reform in this area is required, I would like to see this reform span all aspects of insurance because the amount of money paid out by way of insurance costs is astronomical. The amount of "dead" money that every person in business must carry due to insurance costs is huge. When I was engaged in the saw-milling industry the difference between insuring the same liability here compared with Northern Ireland would have been of the order of £12,000 to £15,000 per year. That aspect must be addressed also because it involved a competitiveness and the problem arose where one jurisdiction was providing to be more hospitable towards employment than the other. When we address this problem we must do so thoroughly.

Ag an am céanna níor mhaith liom go bhfágfaí an t-ábhar seo ar an méar fhada agus go mbeimis ag teacht arais arís i gceann trí bliana nó níos luaithe agus gan réiteach ar an bhfadhb. Iarraim ar an Aire go ndéanfar cinnte go dtabharfar ar aghaidh mar thosaíocht an tuarascáil atá lorgtha agus go gcuirfear ar fáil í, go ndéanfar athbhreithniú iomlán ar cheist-eanna árachais agus dliteanais; go ndéanfar idirdhealú idir an té go bhfuil cuireadh isteach aige chuig do chuid talún agus an té nach bhfuil, agus an té nach bhfuil cuireadh isteach aige ach go bhfuil tuiscint ann go bhféadfadh sé teacht isteach, agus mar sin de. Caithfear na pointí seo ar fad a scrúdú.

Arís, molaim an Teachta Deenihan as ucht an t-ábhar a thabhairt ar aghaidh. Creidim go bhfuil obair mhaith déanta aige le cur leis an díospóireacht seo ar chúrsaí árachais.

This debate is very worthwhile. However, it would be peculiar for any Government, having asked the Law Reform Commission to provide a report, to proceed with a change in the law in one area while not dealing with other areas. The matter should be dealt with in a thorough, comprehensive way when the report becomes available — I hope it will be published soon. The Minister should ensure that there is a deadline not only on dealing with the matter of occupiers' liability but on the question of liability insurance in general so that there will be a reasonable balance. The pendulum should not be swung too far to the other side, with people who genuinely suffer an injury due to the negligence of an occupier or employer being unfairly treated. That would require us to come back here in a year's time to change the law again. We all want to ensure that reasonable insurance is available and compensation paid. The concept of liability and negligence should be more clearly defined and the persons making the claim should be clearer as to their responsibility. This matter should be dealt with in a thorough manner so that at the end of the day this huge problem is resolved.

In the 1987 election, the first one in which I took part, on the doorsteps I said this was an issue that would have to be tackled by whatever Government came to power because it affected everybody directly or indirectly. Comprehensive consideration should be given to the matter, a time limit should be set and liability insurance legislation should be enacted in the near future. It would be more acceptable to deal with the matter comprehensively rather than piecemeal as proposed here. However, that is not to say that the sentiments, ideas and concepts promoted here are not very worthwhile.

I wish to share my time with Deputy McGrath.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am delighted to have an opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Bill and I compliment Deputy Deenihan on introducing it. The Minister should take on board what has been said by Members on both sides of the House. A serious problem exists and I hope, following the contributions here, the Minister realises the real concern in rural Ireland in regard to this matter.

The debate has been broadened, with contributions about public liability and so on, but we are talking here about landowners' liability. The Minister will be aware that for generations goodwill existed and the countryside was open to visitors from towns and cities. Farmers never asked questions as to where people were going but were always helpful in pointing the way to good fishing spots. Goodwill existed in regard to fishing, game shooting and hunting and farmers enjoyed meeting people. Unfortunately, that practice has changed because of the growing trend of people who are injured seeking compensation. I do not always see eye to eye with Deputy Davern but I take on board much of what he said. We must move with the times and protect the people who have shown goodwill in abundance. No Member can say that landowners should be held liable for people who are of no benefit to them and to whom they offer their facilities. That people are prepared to abuse that privilege is unacceptable.

Requests have been made by Deputy Ferris and the Minister to postpone the vote on this Bill and await the report of the Law Reform Commission. I have no doubt the Minister means well but I take what he said with a grain of salt. When I was elected to this House in March 1987 I asked the then Minister for Justice a question as to landowners' liability arising from a judgment against a small farmer in my constituency. At the time the Minister appreciated the position. He told me in October 1987 he was referring the matter to the Law Reform Commission and said he would ask them to report forthwith — the Minister broadened the matter to include business and other liability under this complex law.

Since 1987 nothing has been done. Surely it does not take six years for legal eagles to investigate the matter and suggest a law to remove liability from landowners? I cannot accept that position, nor will farmers. If the position was reversed it would not take six years to deal with the farmer. How serious is the Law Reform Commission about reporting on this serious problem?

It said the report would be available within a month.

Deputy Deenihan or I will table a question on the matter in a month's time. The commission is now on notice because it has had six years to report on the matter.

We heard that before.

Six years ago the tourist industry was not too well developed but today it is now a major industry. My constituency is visited by many people on fishing holidays. Lands must be crossed to gain access to lakes and rivers but, unfortunately landowners are now liable for injuries to people who cross their land uninvited. City and urban dwellers should not think they are not welcome in the countryside but they should understand the position. Successful cases have been taken against farmers. In one case a man who was game shooting with his friend was accidently shot in the heel when his friend tripped with a loaded gun. The man's friend did not have the money to compensate him and he sued the farmer. The farmer was found negligent and the judge reprimanded him for being careless and not keeping his fences in proper condition.

That was an outrageous decision as the farmer did not invite these people onto his land. I am sure he was not expected to take them by the hand and show them where to go. People visiting the country must accept the pitfalls involved. In the case I mentioned £75,000 was awarded. That case was before the courts about seven or eight years ago. I have no doubt that the person involved was severely injured but the farmer should not have been required to compensate him. That is the nub of the problem. I hope this incident will bring home to the Minister the extent of the problem. If it is not dealt with immediately rural Ireland will be closed off because people want to protect themselves and their families. This is a very serious matter. It goes further than the protection of the farmer. It also relates to the development of tourism, which is a major industry.

I know there are complex issues in communities. Trustees have to be appointed when the communities wish to develop a play area for the children. People are reluctant to become trustees because they can now be sued. A lawyer told me that if he wanted to sue a trustee he would single out the person with the most property and let his friends rally round him. When a person is in trouble the friends soon leave. I appeal to the Minister to take this Bill on board in order to clear the farmer of liability. If the Minister does that he will be doing great good not only for the landowners but for tourism.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking on this Private Members Motion and I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, for taking the initiative of bringing this Bill before the House.

Unfortunately, the Minister for Equality and Law Reform indicated to the House last week that he and the Government would not support this Bill. The Minister acknowledged the need for reform in this area — but alas, he is not ready for it just yet. The Minister in his speech said:

There is consensus on the need for change in this area and representatives of the farming community, in particular, have been seeking such change ......... the Government is not, therefore, in a position to give its support to this Bill at the present time.

Their failure to respond to the need to protect the rights of landowners is another sign of this Government's weakness. The Minister further stated last week:

...... The occupier is now regarded as owing a duty to trespassers

and, he further stated:

Inevitably, this uncertainty has caused landowners, farmers in particular, to fear that they may become the focus for a substantial damages claim, not only in relation to trespassers, but also in relation to other categories of entrants.

The farming organisations also recognise the need for reform. Alan Gillis has said:

Occupiers liability must be put in the fast-track to legislative reform if the danger of high losses in tourism revenue and disruption to visitors, is to be averted.

Mr. Donal Murphy of the ICMSA has said:

Our position is that we want the legislation to exempt farmers, and indeed, all property owners, from any liability, or any duty of care to any person on their land, of other property, without the owners permission.

The National Association of Regional Game Councils, with approximately 22,000 members, also calls for a change in the law. Not only do these people enjoy their sport through the goodwill of the farming community, but they also provide a valuable service in relation to vermin control.

By rejecting this Bill the Government are flying directly in the face of the requests for law reform in this area from the organisations referred to. Because of this Government decision farmers will continue to prevent access to their lands, access to national monuments, access to observe our shy wild mammals in various parts of the country and access to walkways and pathways that have the potential to attract much-needed tourism revenue. Who can blame a landowner for such a decision when, the consequences of an accident on the land can pave the way for compensation claims from even trespassers, claims that could put these landowners out of business. Surely this law needs to be amended quickly. The opportunity is before the House tonight. As the Minister, Deputy Mervyn Taylor, said, the Law Reform Commission is to report within a month. Why not accept this Bill and amend it as necessary on Committee Stage and get on with the business of providing the necessary framework to protect landowners throughout the country?

I am sharing my time with Deputies Sheehan and Deenihan. I compliment Deputy Deenihan on introducing this Bill. It is a Bill to which he has given a lot of consideration. For many years he has spoken about this vexatious issue. Every rural Deputy is conscious of this problem. This problem has been flagged on many occasions in The Limerick Leader. Both the IFA and the ICMSA have continually raised this problem. This Bill is therefore timely.

Interestingly, this Bill has not been considered in the light of Leader projects. The emphasis on Leader projects is in rural Ireland. We support those projects. In my constituency we have a very successful project. On 2 June I received a letter from that project, as I am sure did other Deputies in the area, in relation to the law on liability of owners and occupiers of land and the difficulties it was creating for them. Much is being said about the impact of this law on tourism. A particular problem relates to equestrian activities and the use of woods owned by Coillte. This vexatious issue of occupiers liability spans a wide area and should be addressed. There is a commitment to expand Leader projects over the next few years and to facilitate that expansion I would like this Bill to be accepted.

Many people have referred to the simplicity of the Bill and spoken about the coming report from the Law Reform Commission. It is amazing that this Bill, which seeks to address the pertinent problems in relation to occupiers liability, is not accepted. Surely amendments could be added afterwards to enhance the Bill. The acceptance of this Bill would encourage the development of sporting activities in the tourism area and I endorse what many speakers have said about this.

In modern times the Irish farm can be a dangerous place. We can appreciate the concerns of farmers in relation to people who would use their land without permission. The hazardous nature of many of our farms is due to modern plant and machinery. In many cases farmers may have to leave gates loose on hinges because the stone wall might not be as effective as it should be. All these things create potential hazards.

When I was growing up I looked with a certain amount of trepidation on signs saying "Trespassers will be prosecuted". Those signs were usually confined to the lands of the gentry and one stayed out of those areas. In recent times those type of signs are re-emerging because society has grown litigation conscious.

I was perturbed at the tone of Deputy Davern's speech. It was an attempt to target the legal profession and tarnish them with the blame for all the ills in society in relation to this vexatious problem of occupiers liability. I am sure the Minister, who is a member of the legal profession, would not endorse the sentiments of Deputy Davern.

He is Minister for Equality, so he could not.

I support Deputy Deenihan and compliment him on his initiative in bringing this Bill before the House. This question was first raised by Deputy Deenihan in 1987. If Deputy Deenihan had not come up with this Bill, I wonder if the Government would have moved on this problem. I encourage the House to support this Bill.

It is regrettable that whenever an initiative comes forward from the Opposition in this House it tends to be knocked. That is unfortunate particularly in the case of a Government that intends to introduce within a short period an Ethics in Government Bill, exhorting us all to be of good behaviour, telling us what we can or cannot do. This is a Government that has spoken about transparency, about blowing away the cobwebs, letting in the light and so on. Yet when something imaginative is introduced it is blown out.

I made a reasonable suggestion.

I heard the Minister speak last week. We have been listening to sermons on ethics and the like. The Minister should put his money where his mouth is and support this Bill.

The Deputy should take up the offer on the table. He can take it up.

I congratulate Deputy Deenihan on his foresight in having introduced this long overdue Bill.

It is still a few weeks premature.

The protection of the occupiers of land and property is of paramount importance. If tourism is to prosper and play its part in this country, as we are told it will over the next decade, surely priority must be given to access to our beaches and other tourist facilities, generally ensuring that no responsibility will be laid on the shoulders of the owners of such property or land. If activity holidays and the development of recreational facilities, such as beaches, picnic places, forestry walks and even playgrounds, are to be promoted here, this Bill must be accepted by the Minister and his Government this evening.

I am most disappointed that the Minister and Government are adopting delaying tactics, playing politics with such an urgently needed Bill, particularly since the issue involved has been a bone of contention for decades past. Yet no Government has had the courage to face up to its responsibilities in the matter.

Deputy Ferris in his contribution advocated postponement of this legislation until the recommendation of the Law Reform Commission has been announced. I should like to ask Deputy Ferris whether he is so naive as to think it is beyond the bounds of capability of this House to pass legislation which will put an end once and for all to this anomaly and injustice? If the Minister considers the Bill is not sufficiently comprehensive, which I doubt, what is to prevent him tabling amendments on Committee Stage to safeguard against any loopholes discovered?

It is clear that the postponement of this Bill will have a number of adverse effects. First, the potential liability constitutes an unfair burden on the farming community and on property owners in general. In addition, it will hamper the creation of employment through the development of activity holidays and traditional access to recreational facilities such as forest walks, playgrounds and so on. All of this will be placed at risk. The importance of an immediate change in the law is clear to everybody in this House and country this evening.

In his contribution last week the Minister said that the issue was what form such change should take so that the right balance could be struck between the interests of the occupiers of land and those of other persons who enter such land. Surely it is clear that the owner of any property should not be liable for any damage done by uninvited guests who trespass on that property or enter thereon? Speaking of previous court decisions, the Minister had this to say:

The bulk of those decisions have dealt with the position of trespasser and, for the present at least, may suggest that trespassers could be entitled to a higher duty of care than other more lawful entrants onto land.

Surely that spells out a demand for immediate action.

Responsible bodies, such as the IFA, the ICMSA, and regional game councils nationwide, have been clamouring for this legislation. Yet for some unknown reason the Minister and his Government are not accepting this Bill, the provisions to which would safeguard the interests of all concerned. That begs the question: is it petty party politics the Minister is playing here this evening, or does he want to look after the interests of people who are scourged by this problem in rural areas today?

The time is long overdue to allow commonsense prevail. I know the Minister is man enough, big enough and has sufficient heart to accept this worthy Bill here this evening. I warn him that if he does not do so he will be doing a serious injustice, not alone to himself and his Government but to the country at large.

I should like to thank all Members who contributed to this debate over the past two weeks and compliment them on the quality of their contributions. It was a very lively debate, especially this evening. I should like to thank the Progressive Democrats, Democratic Left, The Green Party and Independents for supporting this Bill and, indeed, speakers from the Government side of the House. I would never have thought I would have thanked a Deputy de Valera in my lifetime, but I must say I appreciated Deputy Síle de Valera's contribution, which was very positive, just as was that of Deputy Ó Cuív. However, I must say I was disappointed with Deputy Ferris's contribution here this evening.

I said nothing different from the Minister.

I would have expected more of Deputy Ferris. The provisions of this Bill are concerned with the position and rights of landowners and with the obligations and penalties being imposed on them. I set out the position clearly in my introductory remarks last week.

The Minister in his contribution referred to other aspects of this problem, such as injuries occuring on vessels, vehicles or aircraft. I should say I did not set out to resolve those problems. I was concerned about the problems arising for landowners in regard to their obligations to people who enter their lands.

Criticism of this Bill on the grounds that it is not sufficiently comprehensive or does not cover those other aspects is totally unfounded. There is here a problem we can grasp, which we can resolve, in the manner set out by the provisions of this Bill.

Apart from some reservations expressed by the Minister present and by the Minister of State, this Bill has received widespread support from all sides of the House. Members have been very strong in their support for change along the lines suggested in this Bill. I am convinced that if allowed a free vote this House would vote overwhelmingly in favour of this Bill this evening. The Minister for Justice, together with the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, must take responsibility for this shortsighted decision to reject my proposal.

This Bill has received widespread support outside this House from the main farming organisations, the IFA, the ICMSA, the Association for Adventure Sports, the National Association of Games Councils and so on. This is the approach they want adopted. Why not accept it?

In his criticism of the Bill the Minister stated that no exception is made for children. Children have been involved in a number of celebrated decisions in which the courts have held that a duty of care owed to all entrants, including trespassers, is akin to the general duty in the law of negligence, that is, the duty to take reasonable care. The cases which gave rise to these decisions were tragic and involved children who wandered into electricity sub-stations or onto railway tracks and received severe injuries. While one could not quarrel with the decisions in certain cases the problem is that the principles laid down in these cases applied far beyond the circumstances of a seriously injured child. As a result a trespasser, arguably, is in as strong a legal position as the person lawfully on land.

Concern for children is the first reason given by the Minister for not supporting the Bill and his second is to be found in the reference to the Law Reform Commission. He asked us to wait until the process has been finalised. However, this could take a long time. In the near future a consultation paper will be published on which the commission will invite comments. Those comments will be considered before the final report is published. If the Government decides to act on this report a Bill would have to be drafted. This process could take up to three years to complete. In the case of the consultation paper dealing with the law on defamation more than one year passed between the time the paper was published and the report was presented. That report is now almost one year old; yet nothing has been done. I am convinced that it would be better therefore for the House to accept this Bill to meet an immediate need and, if necessary, to amend it in the light of the proposals of the Law Reform Commission.

The law on occupiers' liability is yet another monument to inactivity on the part of this House. I appeal to the Minister to accept this simple, yet comprehensive Bill which has been designed to take the terror out of this question.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 46; Níl, 72.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cox, Pat.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P. J.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan; Níl, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris.
Question declared lost.
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