Four Private Notice Questions have been allowed. I shall call on the Deputies concerned in the following order to put their questions to the Minister for the Environment: Deputies Owen, Rabbitte, Durkan and Keogh.
Private Notice Questions. - Flood Relief Measures.
asked the Minister for the Environment if, in view of the tragic death of a young boy in Baldoyle, County Dublin, from drowning, he will immediately make available the necessary finance to carry out the flood relief project of Dublin County Council.
asked the Minister for the Environment if, in view of the serious damage caused by flooding on Friday and Saturday last in Clondalkin and other areas of Dublin, he will give details of the financial or other assistance it is intended to provide for those whose homes were badly damaged and who now face severe losses; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for the Environment the reason the major emergency plans were not activated on Friday, 11 June 1993 during the severe weather conditions which affected many parts of the country with a consequent threat to life and property; the steps, if any, he proposes to take to ensure a more coordinated approach to the provision of emergency services in the future; if he proposes to offer any assistance to victims of the severe flooding which took place; if he intends to utilise EC funds for this purpose; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for the Environment, if in view of the tragic loss of life that occurred in Baldoyle, County Dublin, on Saturday last arising from the serious flooding in the area, and which compounded the danger posed by an open, unguarded surface water channel on Grange Road, he will give the reason the sluice gates on the nearby Mayne river estuary were not open on Saturday last resulting in a serious back-up of water that dangerously exacerbated the flooding in Baldoyle and other Dublin northside areas; the reason the surface water channel associated with a new housing development has been left open and unguarded at the edge of a public park, despite complaints from local residents; when the long awaited and long promised surface water scheme for the Baldoyle area will proceed; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take these four Private Notice Questions together. The heavy rainfall which affected much of the country beginning on the night of Thursday, 10 June was an extreme natural occurrence; in some areas, including Baldoyle, registered levels involve a statistical probability of lower than once in 100 years.
It is inevitable that a natural phenomenon of this exceptional severity must result in extensive damage and suffering. Such has sadly been the case. As the House is well aware, tragic loss of young life has been occasioned, as well as widespread hardship and disruption to the urban and farming communities. Our deep sympathy goes to the bereaved and to all others affected. Our thanks are also due, of course, to the staff of the various emergency services and all other volunteers who laboured exceptionally to provide all possible relief.
Different factors contribute to flooding in different circumstances. A number of public sector responsibilities are therefore involved, in relation to matters such as arterial drainage, coastal protection and urban drainage. My own responsibilities as Minister for the Environment relate to the financing of projects designed to provide adequate drainage of urban catchments within the framework of the water and sanitary services programme. I accept that this aspect is an issue in the Baldoyle situation, with which I will now deal in some detail.
Two questions arise for consideration in the light of the Baldoyle flooding. The first concerns the operational measures deployed by Dublin County Council, as the responsible public authority involved, during the testing and exceptional events of the weekend. The second question relates to the Baldoyle flood relief scheme which has been proposed by Dublin County Council to provide a permanent solution — if such solutions can be provided — to the drainage problems of the area.
As regards the first of these questions, Dublin County Council have already issued a statement on the Baldoyle flooding pending further investigation by them of all of the circumstances involved. Independently of this, I immediately requested a report on the situation from an inspector of my Department which I have received today. I will now summarise for the House the main findings of this report.
The report details that between midnight on Thursday, 10 June 1993 and midnight on Friday, 11 June 1993, approximately 93mm of rain fell in the Baldoyle area. Conditions of this kind would only be expected at intervals of more than 100 years.
Grange Road, in the vicinity of the drowning tragedy, was flooded to a depth of between one and two feet. Some low lying houses were also flooded, as has previously occurred during heavy rain-storms.
A housing development is under construction across the Grange Road from the scene of the drowning. One of the planning conditions required the developer to construct an open channel linking the Seagrange and Racecourse streams in order to provide some flood relief in advance of the main council drainage proposal for the area. Another planning condition was that the channel should be fenced. At the time of the flooding, this channel had not been fully connected between the two streams and fencing had not been provided. It appears that there would have been up to six feet of water in this open drain a short distance out from the wall at the point where the tragic drowning occurred.
The relief measures taken by Dublin County Council include the following: clearance of the stream at Marian Park; issue of sandbags to householders; manual opening of the flood gate at Mayne river to ensure release of as much water as possible and manual operation, on a precautionary basis, of the foul sewage pumping station at Baldoyle village. Fire brigades were also, to the extent feasible, present to assist in relieving flooding to households and other premises.
Overall, the report concludes that Dublin County Council's management of the drainage system was properly organised in relation to the facilities available and the exceptional circumstances which obtained during the weekend.
The second question arising from the Baldoyle flooding concerns the flood relief scheme which has been under planning for some years. The need for this scheme was already recognised by the Government by virtue of its inclusion, in 1990, in the operational programme for water, sanitary and other local services.
I can state openly to the House that planning and financial difficulties have delayed the earlier provision of this scheme. At the planning or technical level, revised contract documents for the scheme were submitted to my Department in January 1993. It has not yet been possible to approve these because all details of planning, such as acquisition of wayleaves and foreshore licence, have not yet been certified by Dublin County Council as complete. It is also the case that, within overall competing needs for water and sanitary services investment, quite limited financing has been available for flood relief proposals. Proposals are, of course, before me from many other areas throughout the country as well as Baldoyle.
I accept, however, that the difficult events of the weekend reinforce the need, already identified in the sanitary services programme, for the Baldoyle scheme. I will endeavour, in consultation with Dublin County Council and within the constraints of budget, to ensure its early provision.
As regards emergency planning, it is a matter for the main response agencies — the health boards, the Garda and the larger local authorities — to determine the appropriate response to emergency situations and to decide when it is necessary to formally activate the plans which they have prepared for responding to major emergencies. These plans are based on a common framework for a coordinated response to major emergencies which was adopted by the Government some years ago. The plans include procedures for co-ordination between the different services responding to an emergency, and with other agencies and services in a position to assist in particular circumstances.
Finally, there are no funds available to me to provide assistance to householders for any damage to houses caused by flooding. Householders would normally be expected to have buildings and contents insured against losses of this nature. However, in necessitous cases, it is open to the health board to provide assistance to elderly householders under the Task Force on Special Housing Aid for the Elderly to remedy damage to the householders' living conditions. Furthermore, under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme, a health board may assist a person where an urgent need arises. Persons affected by the recent flooding may get advice on the assistance available in this way from the local community welfare officer.
I should like to express my deepest sympathy to the family of Eric Lambe who lost his life in Baldoyle and to the relatives of the two young men who were drowned in County Meath during the weekend flooding. Will the Minister confirm that in May 1989 Dublin County Council submitted a scheme for the flood relief programme in Baldoyle and that if that scheme had been given approval then it would be in place now and the disastrous flooding at the weekend would not have occurred? I would remind the Minister that some years ago a special scheme of compensation was introduced for people affected by the overflowing of the Dodder river in Dublin. Would the Minister revise what he has just said and introduce a scheme of compensation for the people in Baldoyle and elsewhere who have been affected by the flooding which occurred at the weekend? Finally, could I ask the Minister to work with Dublin County Council to get the much needed scheme for Baldoyle up and running during 1993, in view of the fact that this should have been done in the seventies when it was first mooted?
It is true that proposals for a scheme were submitted in 1989. Since then the planning and revision of that scheme has taken a different course and in January last the county council was in a position to submit to my Department the revised plans which show significant changes in design from those proposed in the original scheme. There are other planning and wayleave matters which must be resolved and I will give an undertaking to the House today to work as closely as possible with Dublin County Council to resolve the remaining difficulties.
It is open to any local authority to submit a report to me on the scale of the problems in its area and we will examine to what extent, if any, action is required by my Department. My original reply dealt with this problem in general. The Deputy will appreciate that it would not be open to the State in all circumstances to carry the costs of exceptional storms of this nature and for that reason people have their own insurance cover.
I, too, extend my sympathy to the family of Eric Lambe. Would the Minister agree that the ability to cope with flooding such as that which occurred at the weekend has been affected by the cumulative impact of cuts enforced on various services in recent years? Regrettably, it appears there must be a fatality before the Minister accepts the gravity of a situation. For example, in my constituency an invalid woman——
Will the Deputy ask a supplementary question, please?
I am asking the Minister if he regards the situation along the Camac——
It appeared that the Deputy was starting to make a speech. A number of Deputies would like to contribute and therefore, I ask for brevity.
It is my turn now and I am on my feet.
That is why I called the Deputy, but I would ask for brevity at Question Time.
There was not a great deal of brevity in some of the historical data the Minister gave us. He is beginning to sound more and more like a Monsignor on a bad line from Medjugore. I want to make a few points about the gravity of the problem which affected my constituents in Clondalkin.
This is not a time for making points. It is a time for asking a supplementary question and I would appreciate it if the Deputy would do that.
I will put it to the Minister this way. If it was found possible to provide a disaster fund of some dimension in the case of the people affected by the flooding of the Dodder a few years ago, why is it not possible to assist those who have been affected so badly as a result of the overflow of the Camac in Clondalkin? What is the disposition of the Minister and his Department on the question of funding the necessary engineering scheme to make that river safe, having regard to the fact that this is the second time in ten years a disaster of this dimension has impacted on the people of Cherrywood in Clondalkin, where more than 40 houses are uninhabitable and many people are housed in emergency accommodation by the Eastern Health Board?
The last thing the people who suffered from this exceptional storm want to hear is politics of pretence or the suggestion that the Minister for the Environment will act only when an unfortunate tragedy takes place. I am anxious to provide additional provisions for sanitary services and will fight my own battles in that regard. Deputy Rabbitte can vote against any additional taxation raised in this House whenever it suits him, even though some of those provisions might be dedicated to services such as this.
The Deputy is well aware that there were large scale evacuations and considerable structural damage caused to housing property at the time of the Dodder flooding and as far as we are aware no real comparisons can be made with this case. Nonetheless, individuals have been severely affected by the storm at the weekend and I have outlined the assistance that is available. When the local authorities, who have primary responsibility for reporting problems of this nature to me, submit a report indicating special hardship cases I will examine the extent to which I can assist them. I am grateful to the Deputies for raising this matter, but I regret that Deputy Rabbitte saw fit, once again, to politicise a problem for which every Member realises nobody could carry the full responsibility. When accidents and emergencies of a type which might occur only once in 100 years——
Come off it.
I did not interrupt the Deputy.
I did not ask a question yet but I will.
The Minister is very tedious.
It is only proper that we should deal with emergencies of this kind in a manner that will resolve the problem——
In a manner that does not ruffle the Minister.
——rather than cast the blame.
I would like also to express my sympathy to the relatives and friends of the victims of the tragedies which occurred at the weekend. Would the Minister agree that the weekend flooding showed glaring inadequacies in the emergency plan which is supposed to be in operation on such occasions? Will he inform the House who is in senior command in the local authorities in cases of emergency? Is it the Garda? Is it the engineering section of the local authority? Is it the fire services? Is it the Army, or is it somebody else?
It is open to the health boards, to the local authorities, to the Garda to declare an emergency of the order the Deputy has mentioned. No such action was taken.
Who co-ordinates it? I do not want to delay the House, but this is an important matter which should be dealt with now. Could the Minister initiate some procedure within the Department whereby it can be clearly indicated to the various local authorities who is to take charge in the event of an emergency of this nature so that we do not have a repetition of what happened in the last few days when fire services personnel were on some roads attempting to direct traffic and the engineering services of the local authorities were not aware to whom they should answer? The Minister should address this issue, otherwise we will be back here again on some other occasion.
My Department has already provided guidelines to the various authorities who can take appropriate action in case of an emergency. I have no hesitation in saying that I will look to reviewing those guidelines to ensure that they are as pro-active as possible.
Who pro-acts? The Minister does not know, nor does he care.
I would like to be associated with the remarks of sympathy towards the families of those who have been bereaved. We are talking about tragedies which just should not happen, even if it is just once in a hundred years. Quite apart from the fact that I found the answer the Minister gave to my question overly general, I would say that if there is not an emergency plan there should be one. If there is one, somebody should have overall responsibility, and surely that should be the Minister. I would like to ask the Minister if he is in fact the person who assumes that responsibility.
To refer in particular to the question I asked about the surface water channel where this unfortunate youngster was drowned, who is now responsible for this open channel? Is it the builder or the county council? Is it anticipated that the channel will now be fenced in completely? When exactly can we expect the surface water drainage scheme to start?
I do not believe the Deputy would expect me to be able to answer those questions in detail. I had an inspector of my Department review this matter and give me a report within hours of this tragic development. I indicated to the Deputy that it was a condition of planning permission that fencing would be required. I understand that work on the channel had not been completed. These are legal matters. We will have to wait for a coroner's report and there are other legal implications which I would not be in a position to inform the House on today.
I will permit a further round of questions from the Deputies who are directly concerned, but they must be very brief.
Arising out of these tragedies and the clear need for a new scheme in Baldoyle, will the Minister now undertake to assess with the county councils, particularly Dublin County Council, which was the worst hit area, the manpower needs of the council so that they can respond more readily to the kind of flooding that occurred in north County Dublin last Friday? The manpower levels are so low now that the council cannot provide the back-up service which is required.
I do not accept that the manpower levels are inadequate.
They are.
Neither do I accept that it would be necessary to deal with one particular area in the country in this context when, because of flooding in the midlands and other areas, local authorities and other agencies have to be brought together. I will undertake to work closely with Dublin County Council to resolve the outstanding planning and other matters that need to be tackled so that that scheme can proceed.
Will the Minister agree to meet a deputation from the residents associations affected to discuss various aspects of this problem, including serious reservations about the operational measures which he says were sufficient but which in the view of local residents most emphatically were not sufficient? I would ask him again to reply to my question about the attitude of his Department towards providing the funding for the necessary engineering works at the Camac in Clondalkin.
I have had requests from a number of my colleagues in this House already, both from Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party, to meet a deputation and I will have no hesitation in meeting them to discuss any aspects of this tragedy or indeed other matters relating to that area.
What about the Camac?
It does not arise.
It did arise last Friday night. What does the Minister mean by saying it does not arise.
Please, Deputy Rabbitte. I have called another Deputy, Deputy Durkan.
What does the Minister mean with the dismissive "It does not arise"? It arose last Friday night.
In the event of a recurrence of the events of last Friday and Saturday — and one can never guarantee against that — would the Minister indicate to the House who in the various local authorities will be given the responsibility of co-ordinating the services. In other words, what person or persons are directly responsible for calling in the emergency services? Will the Minister now consider what means will be used to rescue people who may have to be rescued from their houses on the next occasion?
This gives me the opportunity to clear up an earlier suggestion that the Minister for the Environment is the person to activate an emergency operation of this kind. Clearly the agency or authority closest to where the problem is would have the authority to declare an emergency of that kind.
Who?
It could be the Garda Superintendent; it could be the county engineer.
Who decides?
All the agencies have that authority. It is not a question of confining the authority to one particular person. We need to ensure that the greatest possible range of opportunities is there to ensure that the operation is effective and that it is called on time.
Somebody has to say who.
The Minister just said it is everybody's responsibility and nobody's responsibility. This is a disgrace.
I find the Minister's last answer absolutely remarkable. It would seem that nobody is in charge. Would the Minister not accept that he has the overall responsibility and should determine who has responsibility in particular areas if that is the way he expects things to operate? It is just not good enough that nobody takes on responsibility for these matters.
We are having quite a lot of repetition.
The Minister will not answer.
If he would answer questions we might get somewhere.
I do not accept the contention that it is the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment to declare an emergency in circumstances where that Minister may not be anywhere close to the problem. This House would accept that it would have to be the local authority, the county engineer, the county manager, the chief executive officer of a health board, the Garda Superintendent or the authority that is closely involved where the emergency arises, so that an operational programme could be put in place. That is perfectly acceptable and that is the way it will work.
Who decides?
There has to be some accountability. Somebody has to be in charge.
(Interruptions.)
That disposes of questions for today.