Vol. 433 No. 5
16 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the number of solicitors involved in the civil legal aid scheme compared to the total number practising in the country; the number needed to provide an adequate civil legal aid scheme nationally; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I am informed by the Law Society that there are approximately 3,800 practising solicitors in the State. Of that number 39 are employed fulltime by the Legal Aid Board.
There is a commitment in the Programme for a Partnership Government that additional funding will be provided to facilitate an expansion of the legal aid scheme. The Legal Aid Board is, in consultation with my Department, in the process of devising an action plan for the long term development of the legal aid scheme which takes into account the necessity to increase the operational strength of the board's services. Guidelines are being established on the numbers needed to bring about a lasting improvement in the service. Until the guidelines have been established I am not in a position to say what those numbers might be. I am committed to ensuring that the scheme is developed to the greatest extent possible.
Is it not an absolute disgrace that only 1 per cent, that is 39 out of approximately 3,800 practising solicitors are available to the Legal Aid Board and hundreds of thousands of our citizens are denied their democratic right of access to justice?
I do not think that it adds up to compare the ratio of solicitors employed by the Legal Aid Board with the number of practising solicitors in the State, who of course deal with a wide range of commercial activities, conveyancing and so on, as the Deputy well knows. I am totally unhappy, and I regard it as unacceptable, that a lengthy waiting time has built up in many of the existing law centres. As I have indicated, the Government has given a commitment that additional funding will be provided so that the scheme can be expanded. The preparatory work in that context is going on in my Department in consultation with the Legal Aid Board. I hope that we will make some appreciable inroads into the problem even this year and to a greater extent next year.
Would the Minister not accept, apart from the enormous waiting time involved in the case of somebody seeking the assistance of a legal aid solicitor, that the type of cases that would be handled under the legal aid scheme would be very limited? The consequence of this is that, apart from the goodwill of ordinary practising solicitors, many people do not have the opportunity of having their cases dealt with or of gaining access to justice and this is an indictment of our democratic system.
So far as access to justice is concerned, one of the primary complaints one often hears is that Irish people are too litigation prone, that all sorts of cases are brought to the courts, perhaps many that should not have been brought. The waiting lists for having a case heard — leaving aside the waiting periods in the law centres — are very long, particularly in the Circuit Court and especially in the High Court, two year waiting lists and so on, which is an indication that there are very large numbers of people out there going to law, having their cases heard.
Within the family law area, the main area of work of the law centres at present, I should stress that there always has been a shortage in the case of the Legal Aid Board and the law centres who have never had the resources they reasonably required made available by any Government. The present position is unacceptable but, as I have said, I am hopeful we will be able to increase the resources. Of course, when we achieve the point at which the key, pressing areas of family law are contained, hopefully we would then be in a position to expand the parameters as far as eligibility is concerned and, also hopefully in due course so far as the type of case that may be taken by the law centres is concerned. One particular aspect mentioned by Members, as I said in response to an earlier question, I am sure Deputy Jim O'Keeffe has mentioned it also as I have, is that of obtaining legal aid for tribunal hearings, one that is very close to my heart. I hope that at some stage in the lifetime of this government, funding for the Legal Aid Board will be expanded to the point at which we will have the family law position under control and be able to examine that possibility.
I will not accuse the Minister of being flippant when he talks about the many cases before the courts. I am not, of course, referring to compensatory cases with which there is never any great difficulty in having them processed — soft claims, as it were, against insurance companies. I agree with the Minister that there is some evidence that that has gone overboard. I am talking more about the position of someone who has a legitimate claim, where there is not big money involved, where it is my firm belief that a democratic society should ensure that a person has access to justice, has an entitlement to have such claim processed.
Finally, would the Minister agree that a particular problem arises in rural areas, where there is virtually no access to legal aid centres unless somebody is prepared to travel long distances into cities? Would he agree that, in rural areas people who are not in a position to gain access to justice must rely on the goodwill of solicitors or, alternatively, do not have access to justice?
Yes, I fully understand and accept what the Deputy says. I am sure he will be pleased, before too long, with the new arrangements I hope to set up that will enable many people living far away from the next nearest legal aid centre to avail of the services of a private practitioner to get help, particularly in family law situations.
17 Ms O'Donnell asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if he will examine the situation relating to the children of the travelling community who are begging in Dublin city; the person or persons with overall responsibility for them; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I have been entrusted, under the Programme for a Partnership Government, with responsibility for articulating and co-ordinating the implementation of Government policy in relation to travellers. The programme provides that, in discharging this role, I will be assisted by a task force whose terms of reference will include monitoring and pursuing implementation of Government policy in relation to travellers. The task force will replace the monitoring committee whose term of office expired on 31 December, 1992 and will hold its inaugural meeting on 9 July 1993.
I have given the task force wide-ranging terms of reference which will encompass the issue raised by the Deputy. The involvement of traveller children in begging impinges on the responsibilities of a number of Government Departments and State agencies such as the Departments of Health and Education, the Garda, health boards and local authorities.
An ad hoc committee which included officials of local authorities and the Eastern Health Board as well as representatives of the Garda and voluntary agencies dealing with travellers recently presented a report on vulnerable traveller children on the streets to Dublin City Council. The report recommends that an Outreach worker be appointed to assist with the identification and care of such children. The committee advised that the worker should be based in one of the voluntary agencies working with young travellers and that the post should be funded by the Department of the Environment through one of the local authorities in Dublin.
I understand that the report is at present being considered by Dublin City Council. In addition, the Eastern Health Board are at present examining the question of children begging in the context of their obligations and the development of plans under the Child Care Act, 1991.
I strongly support the recommendation in the report that an Outreach worker be appointed. However, this can be regarded as a short term solution only and action is required to address the problem in the longer term. To this end, I have directed an officer from my Department to meet with representatives of the relevant authorities to discuss ongoing plans to resolve the problem.
Would the Minister agree to turn off his long-playing record because he commences the answer to every question about travellers in the same way? Would he accept that he has handed over responsibility to Deputy McManus, that she is now the Minister, even though he is being paid for the task?
Would the Minister agree that it is unacceptable to see very young children, as I saw myself last weekend, of seven, eight and nine years begging at 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock in the morning? Can he clarify whether this Outreach worker will be in a position to take these children into care when they are found on the streets at that hour?
I would not be out at 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock in the morning, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to see that——
Well, Deputy McManus has to go out and see them, yet the Minister is being paid for it.
I am sure Deputy McManus in fulfilling her role on the task force will be investigating all these matters around the clock. I should say the issue is a problem. I am pleased to see that Dublin Corporation at least are trying to do something about it. Their efforts will have my full support. I will be in communication with the Minister for the Environment on the matter of the Outreach worker. That will be of some help. In fulfilment of my co-ordinating role in this regard, as I have said, I have arranged for a senior official of my Department to call in representatives of all relevant authorities to discuss this issue and ascertain what can be done. Within the context of the Eastern Health Board the increased funding now being made available by the Government to the Minister for Health will enable him to play an important role in this regard.
If the Minister is not out on the streets at 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock in the morning would he agree to walk with me, as I did only half an hour ago, to City Hall where he will see families, mothers and their children, in quite significant numbers? Would he accept that the matter of parents bringing their children, babes in arms and youngsters out on the streets, seems to be an increasing rather than a reducing problem? Would he give the House an undertaking to give it high priority and report back to us?
I do not know whether the phenomenon is increasing or reducing but it has been a problem in Dublin ever since I can remember. I agree with Deputy Flaherty that we must endeavour to tackle it in every way we can. Certainly I will be happy to work with the relevant authorities to the maximum possible extent. That is the reason I decided to call them together to address that important issue.
