Michael McDowell
Question:13 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of civil proceedings issued for the recovery of sums due by way of overpayment by his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Questions — Oral Answers (Resumed). - Recovery of Overpayments.
To date no civil proceedings have been issued for the recovery of sums due by way of overpayments. The majority of cases where over-payments occur have a continuing entitlement to social welfare payments and any amounts overpaid are recovered from current or subsequent entitlements without recourse to legal proceedings.
I should like to know the amount of these overpayments since what the Minister of State is saying is that overpayments are not collected; she is saying it is done over a period of time. What is the amount involved and are such overpayments collected?
The Deputy's colleague's question asked the number of civil proceedings issued for the recovery of sums due by way of overpayment. The point I was making was that, generally speaking, the Department does not have to resort to civil proceedings, that in the vast majority of cases overpayments relate to somebody continuing to claim while they have obtained casual work. Such a person may have a continuing entitlement to a social welfare payment. Generally the overpayment is recovered through their subsequent social welfare payments. Most Members will be familiar with that system.
There is another side to this question of overpayments as I discovered when I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. Many overpayments result from errors on the part of the Department and a recipient, for one reason or another, may be paid £2 or £3 per week above their entitlement due to an error rather than the applicant's failure to advise a change of circumstances or whatever. Would the Minister of State agree that it is very unfair that she should seek refunds from persons who are not in very good financial circumstances who have been beneficiaries of small amounts of money from her Department resulting from errors by officials of her Department?
No doubt the Deputy will be familiar with a number of these cases, and will know that arrangements are made to recover the relevant overpayments on a phased basis taking into account the circumstances of the claimant. Obviously, in a number of cases overpayments arise due to fraud. Many of those people would have a continuing entitlement to social welfare. The fraud may arise if they continued to claim during a period when they had casual work. In all such cases the relevant overpayments are subsequently recovered.
The point Deputy Keogh was making was that perhaps civil court proceedings should be taken. That is not the policy of the Department. Rather it has been the policy, by arrangement with the relevant social welfare recipient, to recover such overpayment thus avoiding, except where absolutely unavoidable, court proceedings.
Can the Minister apply herself more specifically to the question I asked? She is dealing with questions of overpayments where recipients themselves are responsible for the overpayment, by fraud, through their neglect to inform the Department of a change in their circumstances and so on. There are many instances where, unknowingly, recipients receive payments due to errors on the part of her Department. Does the Minister have a position in relation to overpayments — very often small amounts, which are the direct result of errors in her Department and which have nothing to do with those who receive these sums unknowingly and which, when they are withdrawn, have a very damaging effect on their standard of living?
I am not so sure that falls within the scope of the question. The Deputy appears to be raising a separate question.
It is a separate question. Perhaps the Deputy would table an appropriate question. My Department makes every effort to deal as sympathetically as possible with individual circumstances. Nonetheless, it is the policy of the Department to recover overpayments and, in general, to do so by way of deductions from subsequent social welfare payments where the applicant is in receipt of a social welfare payment.
Would the Minister come clean with the House once and for all and admit that, in circumstances in which the Department makes errors regarding overpayments it is the practice of the Department to automatically reduce subsequent payments to the recipient or take court action? I agree with the Minister that, in most cases, it is done by way of deduction. Would the Minister agree that it is illegal for the Department to reclaim payments where the error was the responsibility of the Department, that in the past the Department acted illegally in many cases; that under the social welfare code the Department is not legally entitled to reclaim moneys that have been paid mistakenly by the Department? Will the Minister answer yes or no?
Again, that is a slightly different question——
No, it is not.
——but the regulations of Department are very clearly set out. In all cases, the Department seeks to take into account an individual's means. Nonetheless, the Department seeks to recover overpayments, as it is legally entitled to do. The Deputy's party on a number of occasions expressed concern at the level of public spending and my Department seeks to carry out its operations in an efficient manner——
It should stay within the law.
——making arrangements with people, where overpayments have occurred, to recover them on a phased basis without recourse to legal proceedings except as a very last resort.
The Department cannot do so and the Minister of State knows that. She has not answered the question.
How many cases are on hand in relation to repayments of overpayments on a phased basis? How many of those overpayments arose as a result of errors by the Department? If the Minister does not have that information can she inform the House whether the Department has ever foregone an overpayment which arose as a result of an error by the Department because we must remember that we are here dealing with people on extremely low levels of income?
Will the Deputy table a separate question because we were not given notice of such a detailed question?
The Minister of State should know the law; she has enough advisers and programme managers. She is acting illegally at present.
Following my earlier question — which relates to Deputy De Rossa's question — can the Minister say what is the total amount of these overpayments? We would all be concerned that payments would go to the most needy in our society. What is the Minister's view on what constitutes fraud and what constitutes overpayment? For example, is she happy with the position in relation to fraud?
No, I do think that any Minister would be happy about any fraud, of whatever percentage, in any Department. Nonetheless, the Department of Social Welfare makes many millions of payments. The point of Deputy Keogh's colleague's question was whether the Department was taking civil proceedings to recover such payments. Obviously, a proportion of overpayments arise in relation to fraud. Much of that fraud arises within the context of people failing to sign off properly when they engage in casual employment, when they fail to properly inform the Department. In such cases the Department attempts to deal with them in a humane manner, by making an arrangement to have such overpayments recovered on a phased basis. Given the concern of the Deputy's party about possible overspending of public funds, I would have thought she would have welcomed such an efficient system of protecting Government and public revenues against possible loss or abuse.
May I ask the Minister of State a simple question and, if she does not know the answer would the Minister answer it? Has the Department the legal right to recoup payments from social welfare recipients for overpayments where such overpayment were made through an error by the Department?
That is clearly outside the scope of the question which was very specific, asking the number of civil proceedings issued for the recovery of sums due by way of overpayment.
That issue arises under the question. I am asking about the legal rights of social welfare recipients and the Minister of State cannot answer my question. Will the Minister answer it?
I exhort the Minister of State to answer this important question. I suspect she does have the answer. Has the Ombudsman, Mr. Michael Mills, ruled that where an administrative error occurs on the part of the Department leading to an overpayment, that the Department has no right to seek recoupment in such cases?
If the Deputy wishes to ask a question in relation to the office of the Ombudsman, which we would welcome, will he give us the appropriate notice by putting down a question on the matter?
The Minister can only take on widows, the easy meat.
That concludes questions for today.