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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 May 1994

Vol. 443 No. 4

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Westmeath Vocational Education Committee.

Paul McGrath

Question:

4 Mr. McGrath asked the Minister for Education if the pay and non-pay accounts of Westmeath Vocational Education Committee are overdrawn at present; if so, the amounts overdrawn in each case; if approval for this was sought or granted by her; if the committee's bankers threatened to refuse payment on cheques issued; if any discrepancies have been found in financial or other returns to her Department from this vocational education committee; if approval was sought or given for the purchase of property in France; and if she will make a statement on the matter.

Every vocational education committee is obliged to make monthly returns available to my Department. The financial monitoring reports received by my Department from the County Westmeath Vocational Education Committee during 1993 did not indicate any departure from the approved 1993 budget. Its statutory financial statement for the year 1993, which was received in my Department in April 1994, showed a deficit of £450,000 and an overdraft with County Westmeath treasurer bank of £574,000 at the end of 1993. The statutory financial statement does not differentiate between pay and non-pay balances.

I emphasise that we are talking about an unaudited financial statement. Confirmation of surpluses or deficits in the course of audit requires judgments on cash assets and liabilities included in the financial statement. Consequently, the balance of cash assets and liabilities in the audited accounts can be different from those shown on the financial statement initially submitted by a committee. The approval of the Minister had not been sought or given for incurring this overdraft as required by the Vocational Education Act, 1930. I am greatly concerned at these developments and at their implications for the effectiveness of the County Westmeath Vocational Education Committee financial management and control procedures generally.

My Department has brought these matters to the attention of the local government auditor who is responsible for the audit of accounts of vocational education committees until the end of 1993. My Department has also written formally to the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee seeking is observations. On receipt of the observations of the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee, I will consider what further action would be appropriate.

In the course of recent contacts, my Department was made aware of the concerns of the treasurer bank and a verbal request for approval of overdraft facilities has been made by a delegation from the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee. This request is still under consideration.

The matter of the property in France arises under the vocational training opportunities scheme (VTOS). In general, approval for a vocational training opportunities scheme is conveyed in units of 20 students and inclusive funding is provided separate from the vocational education committees general second-level budget. This funding is intended to cover all the costs of the programme, including instruction, equipment, payments to students in respect of school books and other expenses and accommodation where necessary. In view of the overall pressure on school places, vocational education committees provide accommodation for the VTOS in many instances through renting-leasing and meet the cost out of the general VTOS budget. Specific approval for this renting or leasing is not generally sought or given.

In the case of the County Westmeath Vocational Education Committee, approval in principle was given to the provision of a VTOS module in France provided this could be done within the normal level of funding for the scheme. No specific sanction for leasing-purchasing premises was given. Following continuing contacts and discussions and the submission of additional information, the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee was informed in February 1994 not to take further action in the matter until it had been fully considered by the Department. This was repeated in May 1994. My Department is considering all aspects of the proposal in the light of additional information and clarification being made available by this vocational education committee.

I have asked my Department to examine the general financial operation of the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee. On receipt of this information I will consider what further action I should take.

Is the Minister extremely concerned that Westmeath Vocational Education Committee is £574,000 overdrawn, which represents about 100 per cent of the annual turnover in the non-pay account? Is it not very frightening that a vocational education committee would be overdrawn to such an extent? Who is responsible for bringing to the attention of the Department the fact that a vocational education committee is going into overdraft? Is it the responsibility of the chief executive officer or the chairman and the members? If it is the responsibility of the chairman and the members, will the Minister clarify whether those members are liable to be surcharged on the £500,000 that is overdrawn on that account in relation to their bank borrowings? In regard to the property in France, if that also was not brought to the Minister's attention, does that further expose the chairman and the members of that committee to surcharge by the Department?

I said in my reply that I am greatly concerned also. Under the terms of memorandum V.53 it is the duty of a CAO to ensure that expenditure is kept within limits imposed by the Minister in his/her approval of an annual financial scheme unless sanction has been obtained in writing for any subsequent modification or revision. Those are the vocational education committee functions, and there are discretionary powers under the 1930 Act. Some of its functions, within parameters, are laid down by the Minister and I made reference to that in regard to renting property to carry out a VTOS. There is a degree of flexibility as long as the budget is adhered to. The vocational education committee system in general is very sucessful at responding in a flexible way to the needs of a community which may change from county to county or town to town. There are functions, however, it can only carry out with the express approval of the Minister, and raising loans is one example.

To refer to my original reply concerning the French property, the matter was brought to my attention in February and the Department said it would look into it. It informed the vocational education committee not to take further action and that was repeated in May. I am greatly concerned about this matter and, under various Acts and memoranda, it is clear that there is flexibility but while we want to protect that flexibility to a vocational education committee, there are parameters. Where the parameters are breached and the information becomes available to the Minister, the Minister can then take action. I have formally requested the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee to answer questions and when that information is available to me, I will inform the House of the action I intend to take.

We must be careful because we are talking about unaudited accounts, and that was specifically included in my reply. It is only when the audited accounts are available and satisfactory answers to the questions are received that I have an obligation to seek a satisfactory explanation.

Before calling on the Deputy again, may I advert to the time factor involved in dealing with priority questions. Only 20 minutes are available to us and we have not yet disposed of the first question. There are four questions remaining and brevity must be the keynote of our proceedings from now on.

I intend to co-operate with the Chair. I am frightened to hear the Minister say that she informed this vocational education committee it was not to proceed with the venture in France in February of this year because in the past two to three weeks an entourage in excess of 60 people travelled from Westmeath to France to the official opening of this premises. In fact, a former Minister was invited but did not travel. A number of high ranking people from County Westmeath and from other vocational education committees travelled to that opening ceremony——

No problem with Irish passports either.

——and I am amazed to hear the Minister say that she told the vocational education committee not to proceed. My second point relates to my question about surcharge. The Minister did not spell that out clearly in her reply. If I heard the Minister correctly she indicated that the chief executive officer is the person responsible for ensuring that budgets are kept within their limits and that that information is conveyed to her. Does that absolve the members from any possible surcharge?

We are spending quite an inordinate amount of time on this question to the disadvantage of the other questions on the Order Paper.

I wish to restate what I said about the duties of the chief executive officer.

The Minister should answer the question.

It is the duty of a chief executive officer under the terms of memorandum V.53 to ensure that expenditure is kept within the limits imposed by the Minister.

We heard that earlier. We want an answer to the question.

It is public money that is involved.

Deputies will appreciate that I must be careful because we are talking about unaudited figures. I have asked questions of the vocational education committee and I am awaiting its reply. In regard to the French matter, the vocational education committee was told some time ago that it could go ahead and provide the VTOS module in France providing it was done within normal funding available to the VTOS. I would remind the House that we have students on other schemes, Erasmus, Lingua, Petra — Members will be familiar with them — and, therefore, the constraint that was put on the request concerning the French module was a financial one. It was not the case that the Department of Education indicated that it could not and should not operate a module in France. Indeed, not only is the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee interested in this but other vocational education committees believe that students who are availing of the VTOS scheme could benefit.

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