Vol. 446 No. 3
33 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice the number of charities in Ireland; the approximate amounts available to them from the State and from the general public; her views on whether some unscrupulous people are damaging charitable causes by their actions; and the priority, if any, that will be accorded to the introduction of legislation to implement the Costello Report. [1914/94]
Persons or bodies who raise funds for charitable or other related purposes are not obliged to register or to publish accounts. I cannot therefore supply the information requested by the Deputy in the first part of his question.
The Programme for a Partnership Government contains a commitment to introduce tighter controls on charities and street collectors, in line with the recommendations of the Costello Committee Report on Fundraising for Charitable Purposes. Work on the preparation of this legislation is proceeding in the Department of Justice as a matter of priority and my proposals will be announced in the usual way in due course.
The reason the committee was established was because of public disquiet and unease about possible abuses in fund raising for charitable purposes and because of alleged inadequacies in existing legislation in relation to fund raising and the way in which proceeds are accounted for and distributed. I accept that difficulties will remain until the new legislation is enacted.
I am concerned about the reputation of the many charities who are doing magnificent work here and abroad, particularly in the Third World. Has the Minister of State read the 1993 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Is he aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General estimated the number of charities at more than 6,000? Is he aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General's estimate of moneys made available to such charities from the State is approximately £200 million per annum and that they also raise approximately £130 million from the public? Is the Minister of State aware that we are talking about a business, as it were, where the total money involved is approximately £333 million? Will he explain how he is unaware of those facts? Does that explain the lack of urgency by his Government in updating the legislation?
I am aware of the 1993 report published by the Comptroller and Auditor General in which he made a number of estimates, some of which are disputed. My Department does not have the mechanism for establishing the exact figures because charities are not obliged to register or publish their returns.
In regard to the lack of urgency in introducing legislation, the Minister has been in the Department for only 20 months during which time nine important Bills were introduced and three published. The Costello Commission reported at the end of 1989. It was our intention that the legislation would be passed by now but, unfortunately, a number of more pressing and urgent matters arose. Nevertheless, we are proceeding with the drafting of the legislation and will publish it as soon as possible.
Does the Minister of State believe he is being fair to the House in not giving the estimates which he now admits were available to him? Will he agree that the public disquiet and unease to which he referred is shared by many others, including the Comptroller and Auditor General who in his 1992 report referred to the potential for abuse as charities become organised on a business basis? Does he recognise the urgency, from the point of view of reputable charities, of establishing a proper registration authority so that accounts can be submitted annually by charities and proper control exercised?
I have given the Deputy my views on the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. There is some dispute about his conclusions and I do not intend reproducing that report. My Department does not have a mechanism for calculating the figures sought by the Deputy, and if the Comptroller and Auditor General comes to certain conclusions, that is his business.
The Costello Commission was set up following public disquiet. It was given the role of making recommendations about how we might address such disquiet by amending the law. The commission produced more than 80 recommendations for change; therefore, the legislation will be comprehensive. We should not overstate this case. In reality, the majority of people collecting for charity do so on a bona fide basis. They are honest people with entirely altruistic motives and they should not be tainted by the activities of a few. Having regard to the figures for prosecutions and allegations over the past number of years, it is clear that the problem has not increased significantly. The Government is not bound to accept all the recommendations of the Costello Commission. However, it must study them to ascertain the ones that are most desirable for inclusion in legislation. We will meet our commitment to produce the legislation and it will pass through the House during the lifetime of this Government.
Will the Minister of State accept that some unscrupulous operators are tarnishing the names of many reputable charities? Will he accept that the legislation is more than 30 years old and in urgent need of updating? Will he further accept that the Costello Commission was set up approximately eight years ago and that its report was published more than four years ago? Will he agree that, from the point of view of protecting the wonderful work carried out by reputable charities, the introduction of such legislation is urgent?
I accept that honest operators are tarnished to some extent by the activities of unscrupulous ones, but, as the amount of money going to charity is increasing, the effect of such unscrupulous behaviour is minimal. The legislation is more than 38 years old; it dates back to 1956. We set up the Costello Commission to recommend changes and its report is being considered. The amount of legislation introduced by the Minister in the past 20 months is an all time record and we intend to continue at that pace. The legislation will be introduced.
As a former long serving Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. I am aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General is always prudent, accurate and balanced in his reporting and I would not wish anything other than that to be put on the record of the House.
There is no suggestion otherwise.
Is the Minister aware that many of the established and proper charities are concerned that, for example, it is possible to set up a charity to send one's family to the World Cup? They are also concerned about the "open buckets" system of collection. Those matters have been the subject of recommendations in the report of the Costello Commission. Does the report include draft legislation on which the Minister could base her legislation so that the drafting would be a relatively simple matter and welcomed by charities concerned about abuse from a minority of unscrupulous operators? I would not wish to give the impression that we are concerned about all charities, the majority of them are well run and organised. I am concerned that we protect the majority of charities against a minority of unscrupulous operators.
I cast no reflection on the Comptroller and Auditor General, I merely said that there is a dispute about the figures he produced. As there is no registration or accounting system in place it is difficult to calculate the figures accurately.
I am aware that it is possible to set up any type of charity. The Costello Commission report recommends that the legislation should propose a system of registration and that applicants should apply to the Commissioners for Charitable Donations and Bequests if the amount raised is more than £50,000 per annum and to the Garda if it is less than that figure. They are suggesting a registration, reporting and accounting system, for which there is a need, and which will be implemented.
Deputy Mitchell asked me also whether draft legislative proposals accompanied the Costello report which would make it easier to introduce the legislation more or less straight away. Of course, it would be very easy to introduce the legislation if the Government agreed to accept the report of the Costello Commission in its entirely. That report contains a number of controversial proposals with which I am not arguing. The objectives of the Costello Commission might be set in another way. In particular I have views on the Street and House to House Collections Act, 1962. The Costello report is being studied in the Department and legislative proposals will follow. The Government will meet its commitment to introducing legislation to transform the law on charities.
Replying to Deputy O'Keeffe the Minister of State spoke about tighter controls and his concern for bona fide charities. Will the forthcoming legislation take account of the Big Brother role at present being adopted by the national lottery in its attitude to smaller charities? The national lottery is abusing its monopoly position by advertising on television its scratch cards and in its latest innovation of the bingo scratch card which will have a dramatic effect on bona fide charities about which the Minister spoke.
I do not want to anticipate the precise format of the relevant legislation but I am aware of the point made by the Deputy. As the Deputy will be aware there are proposals for scratch cards and so on in the report of the Costello Commission. The relevant legislative proposals will have to take into account the fact that we have a national lottery. However, there are several people undertaking altruistic work collecting money for charities. That will have to be taken into account and reflected in the legislative proposals to be brought before the House.
