It is proposed to take Nos. 3, 4, 1 and 8. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 3 and 4 shall be decided without debate. Private Members' Business shall be No. 13.
Order of Business.
On a point of order, the Taoiseach knows what I said is correct and I am astonished that he will not correct the record. I seemed to have more information last week than either the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice.
What did Deputy Harney do with it?
So much for openness and transparency and the pane of glass through which we were all going to see. Why will the Taoiseach not correct the record? What I said was correct and the Taoiseach knows it.
I must ask Deputy Harney to resume her seat. Is it agreed that Nos. 3 and 4 shall be decided without debate? Agreed.
During the course of the week will the Taoiseach consider asking the Chairman of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security, Deputy Dan Wallace, to convene a meeting of the committee to discuss the matters of the past week? The board and management of Brink's Allied, its senior staff members and perhaps members of the Garda and the Minister for Justice could be called before the committee and, in an orderly way, even without the need for questions, make statements to the committee. In that way, we could allay, without acrimonious exchanges in this House, public concern about the many difficulties the Minister for Justice has faced over the past week. If the Taoiseach will consider it, this side of the House will make appropriate arrangements and will not even engage in questioning. If everybody involved were to make a statement, the wider public would see the position for themselves.
On the decision of the House last week, all the committees have been stood down.
Except this one.
We wish to reconstitute them at an early date and, as Deputies will be aware from the proposals the Government sent them, we wish to enhance the powers of these committees to enable them to have a wider range of discussion than was possible previously. I have no doubt that when the new committees are constituted, which I hope will be quite soon — to some degree this depends on agreement among all parties in the House — they will be in a position to make decisions about who they want to call and what they want to discuss. I have no doubt they will look at all relevant recent events within their remit in deciding whether they should be discussed.
When we stood down the committees last week, we excluded the Committee on Legislation and Security.
A Deputy
It is a sub-committee.
It is a sub-committee, but we would be glad if even the sub-committee met.
We should not debate this now.
I do not want to argue about it. All we are saying is that this is an urgent matter requiring attention at a time suitable to the Taoiseach. We acknowledge that this is not a simple matter. The people involved, of whom there are only about six, could make a submission to the committee. Half a day would be time enough to do that. We would then all be a bit wiser, let the matter rest and learn some lessons from it. If this is not done the issue will be raised daily and that will not be helpful to the Taoiseach or his Minister for Justice.
We are anxious to have the committees established as soon as possible. I am sure Deputy Ahern is aware of the risks attendant on allowing this House to investigate any matter currently also under investigation by the Garda Síochána from the point of view of the possible prejudicing of any prosecution. In that regard I draw his attention to a reply given by Deputy Raphael Burke when he was Minister for Justice to the effect that it has never been the practice for Ministers for Justice to report to the House on the progress of specific Garda investigations and that he did not intend to depart from that practice. Deputy Burke would have said that for good reasons that still apply under our legal system.
Having said that, in a general way I wish to see the committee system functioning as effectively as possible as long as it does not prejudice Garda investigations.
I accept the Taoiseach's point. That is why we on this side of the House would agree to the committee meeting under restrictive terms, with no questioning, so that the individuals concerned can make their statements.
What would the Deputy do then?
It is better to sit at the committee listening to something than sit here and not be allowed to discuss anything. We would prefer the committee to meet and hear statements by the people involved, at least we would be wiser. There are rumours all over the city and people are asking if there was film in the video machines when the fence was unscrewed, when the ditch was put in place, and many other questions which I do not wish to mention. It would be far better to have such questions aired at a committee. This is a reasonable request. If it were done before the weekend it would allay public concern and the committee would be seen to be doing some part of its job.
This matter in general is the subject matter of Private Members' Business tonight and the Minister for Justice will be making a detailed statement. I have no doubt other Members of the House will be making their views known before and after the contribution of the Minister for Justice. It is not as if debate is not taking place on the subject. It is important to recognise that nothing should be said that in any way risks prejudicing either a Garda investigation or a fair trial at the end of such investigation. That is a matter that the Government in particular, as the Executive, has to take under its special care.
Nobody on this side of the House wishes to prejudice any investigation or to try in any way to prevent somebody from being brought to justice. Those who have made the most critical comments have been members of the Government parties.
The Deputy has been very irresponsible.
What we are talking about here is the biggest single cash robbery in the history of the State. It is no mere burglary, as the Minister for Justice seems to think. The Garda were aware of it well in advance and went to the three companies concerned.
The Deputy is undermining the Garda in their investigation.
Will the Deputy just listen to the facts? Why does he not want to hear the truth?
(Limerick East): She is undermining the Garda, for political advantage.
The Garda spoke to senior people in the three companies concerned and asked them to take precautions.
This matter can be dealt with later tonight.
What are you afraid of?
Nothing. We will be speaking tonight.
(Interruptions.)
So much for openness, transparency and accountability.
Government backbenchers have been extremely critical of the Garda in recent days. Does the Taoiseach stand over this, and does he stand over the attempt of the Minister for Justice to apportion blame in this matter on the public airwaves? Has he changed his mind? Accountability and responsibility go together.
(Interruptions.)
The House is entitled to an answer.
At Question Time there was a problem about answering questions to the Taoiseach which were transferred last week and this week to the Leader of the Labour Party, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs. In view of the contents of the Fine Gael policy document of 1990 on Dáil Reform, will the Taoiseach, in the interests of openness and transparency, bring in the rules which he promised in this document to let Members know why questions are transferred from the Taoiseach to the Tánaiste? The document states it is important that the Taoiseach is seen to answer to the Dáil for issues of overall Government policy, that a practice had grown up whereby Taoisigh transfer questions, put down for answer by the Taoiseach himself, to other Ministers and that Fine Gael would introduce clear and transparent rules governing this practice to ensure that questions may not be arbitrarily transferred to other Ministers.
Deputy Ahern has made his point, which is not appropriate on the Order of Business.
(Interruptions.)
I will have to publish an edition of my collected speeches.
I can give you a title—"Death in the Afternoon".
(Interruptions.)
If we have order I will be very happy to carry on with the Order of Business proper.
On No. 13, the Minister for Justice is availing of the Private Members' Motion to give a statement on the facts of the Brinks robbery and matters arising from that raid last week. Does the Taoiseach agree that a preprepared text that allows the Minister for Justice to make statements without challenge by the Opposition spokespersons is not an adequate response to an urgent matter?
We cannot debate this matter on the Order of Business. I will move on to the business as ordered.