I wish to share my time with Deputy Flood.
Adjournment Debate. - Comments of Minister of State.
That is agreed.
I wish to register my utter disbelief and outrage at the attack levelled by the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Stagg, at members of the travelling community on the RTE programme "Questions and Answers" last night. It would appear that the former Minister with responsibility for housing and the settlement of travellers and the homeless believes that, among other issues, "one of the things they believe is that the system within the traveller movement where men are dominant and women are effectively slaves should be preserved". He went on to state that "a traveller man can beat his wife".
I, with many others, am stunned by these outrageous remarks. It gives me no pleasure to say that the comments of the Minister of State display a complete dearth of common humanity, compassion and charity and a complete and perplexing lack of understanding and appreciation of the traveller's way of life. He stands accused of using comments which could incite racial hatred, which is of grave concern.
I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but, as I said so often to the House, if it is desired to make a serious charge against any Member it should be done by way of substantive motion. I advise Deputies intervening in this debate to show caution and restraint and moderate their language in relation to any alleged accusation made.
Inciting racial hatred is a matter which the Oireachtas views very seriously. The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989, implemented by the then Fianna Fáil Minister for Justice, Deputy Burke, who extended the original draft Bill to include travellers, clearly states in section 2 that it is an offence for a person to use words if they are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, likely to stir up hatred. Under the 1989 Act a person guilty of an offence under section 2, an offence of which Deputy Stagg stands accused, shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or both.
A Member must not allege that another Member is guilty of a criminal or unlawful act or reflect upon his character or personal honour. This is a long-standing convention of the House. I will advise Members on how to proceed if they wish to make a serious charge but accusations across the floor of the House by innuendo or otherwise is not in order.
I am merely stating that the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, stands accused of stirring up hatred.
Let us not bandy words about.
I am not stating that the Minister of State is guilty of inciting hatred but I am saying that by his actions he stands accused of it. That is different and I believe I am entitled to say that in view of the disparaging remarks which the Minister of State used in relation to the travelling community.
The Deputy is making a serious charge and he knows it.
On conviction on indictment this offence carries a fine not exceeding £10,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.
The Deputy is presuming guilt without hearing the Minister's reply. I am asking the Deputy to exercise the utmost restraint and choose his words carefully at this time.
I have chosen my words extremely carefully and it gives me no great pleasure to use any of the terminology I have been obliged to use. I have not at any stage stated that the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, is guilty but on foot of what he said, unfortunately, he stands accused of it.
The Deputy is clearly seeking to circumvent the ruling of the Chair without having heard the Minister's reply.
I will not have an opportunity to respond to the Minister's reply as I am first to speak in the debate. I am merely stating the facts and I am not accusing the Minister of State of being guilty of inciting racial hatred but I am stating that, by his comments, he could and does stand accused of it.
This is not a court of law but a democratic assembly.
I suggest to the House that the outrageous comments made by the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, on national television last night may well be in breach of the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989.
I asked the Deputy to choose his words carefully at this time. I cannot do more.
If the comments of the Minister of State are an indication of the Labour Party's concern for the travelling community then it is an extremely sad day for the underprivileged in society.
I was very surprised by Deputy Stagg's comments because he made a substantial contribution in the previous post he held as Minister. We must be very careful in dealing with the issue of travellers. For too long, there was a tremendous barrier between travellers and the settled community.
I am sorry to ask the Deputy to conclude his remarks but I have shown some discretion in the matter.
The barriers were created by a lack of understanding and compassion, particularly on the part of the settled community. This gave rise to major conflict and misunderstandings between the two groups. We should always try to avoid stereotyping travellers and casting them in roles that create differences. Many traveller support groups have been trying to deal with these problems.
I welcome the opportunity to set the record straight, to rebut the wild, false and outrageous allegations by the Deputy across the floor and to deflate his puffed-up hypocritical indignation. My record on the issue of travellers' rights is second to none. I have been attacked, abused and vilified by members of the Deputy's party because of my support for travellers. That support was not just vocal, but was much more tangible and that has been widely recognised. To accuse me of being racist, anti-traveller or of incitement is to ignore my record as a councillor, a Member of this House, a Minister and misrepresents what I said last night.
I want to make it clear to the House that if any words used by me could be construed by any fair or reasonable person as racist or incitement, I would unreservedly withdraw them and apologise to the people affected. I do not believe that any such construction or interpretation of my words is possible. There was certainly no such intention on my behalf nor never could be. I wish to state also that I support the right of any group to preserve and develop particular aspects of their Irish culture be they Dublin people, Kerry people or travellers. What I do not and will not support is the continuation of a culture of degradation, poverty, infant mortality, disease and premature death. That is not a culture I support, but it is currently the lot of more than 2,000 traveller families and is a disgrace to this so-called Christian society. It is a disgrace also to those, like the Deputy and his party, who have been in power in this country for 50 of the last 70 years.
Come off it, Minister.
The Minister should go back to the local authorities. That is where the problem lies.
What have I done about it? The latest statistics show that in late 1993 approximately 1,577 traveller families were living in local authority houses and a further 893 on local authority halting sites. In total this means that 70 per cent of traveller families have some form of accommodation. It must be acknowledged that 1,176 families remain camped on the side of the road all of them living in appalling conditions. In an effort to increase the provision of alternative accommodation for members of the travelling community while I was Minister with responsibility for housing, I directed local authorities to include proposals for halting sites in the 1994 housing programme. Some local authorities have not yet submitted proposals for additional halting sites. Despite that, I am pleased that an additional 287 families will be accommodated at halting sites this year.
Will they be temporary or permanent?
I mention also that as an incentive to encourage members of the travelling community to purchase their homes, I doubled the first time buyer's grant available for the purchase of their own homes to £3,000. That incentive was specifically focused on the traveller community. In the case of a new house, that special grant is in addition to the new house grant which amounts to £6,000.
In addition to that, while I was Minister with responsibility for housing I promoted group housing schemes for travellers. Substantial progress has been made in that area and my colleagues, the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin, and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy McManus, have announced that funding for the group housing scheme for travellers will be provided separately from the general local authority housing scheme this year. On a broader front there is no doubt about the Government's commitment, as part of its equality agenda, to take the necessary actions to address the needs of the traveller community today.
I contrast this record of positive action with the paralysed posture of Deputy O'Donoghue and many of his colleagues.
Rubbish.
While I was putting in place a programme of accommodation for travellers with the full support of the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, Deputy O'Donoghue was perched high on the Government back benches sniping at us in the most negative way possible——
We were way ahead before the Minister came into office.
I do not snipe. On a point of order——
Deputy, let us hear the Minister. I cannot hear a point of order now.
The Minister should avoid personal abuse.
——and he is still doing it now.
I am entitled to raise a point of order.
Where was the Deputy——
The Minister of State is entitled to reply and the Deputy is not entitled to interrupt him.
On a point of order——
The Minister of State is concluding his remarks and must be allowed to do so without disruption.
I will make a point of order when he concludes.
Where was Deputy O'Donoghue when a mob attacked travellers in Bantry in his constituency? Did he issue a statement condemning the scandalous attack in his backyard? He did not, yet he accuses me.
On a point of order——
He has a cheek and I reject his attempt to take my record of work away from me.
Deputy, please resume your seat.
I reject his crass opportunism and hypocrisy.
Let us hear the point of order, Deputy O'Donoghue.
On a point of order, I very much regret the intemperate remarks of the Minister, Deputy Stagg.
They were not nearly as intemperate as the Deputy's. His were wild and outrageous.
Deputy, this is no point of order.
The Deputy's remarks were deliberately outrageous.
At no stage in my political career did I snipe at the Minister, Deputy Stagg or any Government Minister.
The Deputy is now sniping at a Government Minister.
The Minister of State's reply ends the debate.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 March 1995.