Tom Moffatt
Question:16 Dr. Moffatt asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the current position in relation to the TB eradication scheme and the next round of TB testing. [11219/95]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Bovine TB Testing.
Brian Cowen
Question:17 Mr. Cowen asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if he has secured EU funding for the bovine TB eradication programme; and if he will give a progress report on the matter. [11198/95]
Michael McDowell
Question:27 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if he considers the allocation of TB testing from one veterinary surgeon to another within the same practice to be adequate rotation; if this justifies a 23 per cent increase in fees; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11255/95]
Seán Doherty
Question:58 Mr. Doherty asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the current position in relation to the TB eradication scheme and the next round of TB testing. [11218/95]
Rory O'Hanlon
Question:69 Dr. O'Hanlon asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the current position in relation to the TB eradication scheme and the next round of TB testing. [11220/95]
Ned O'Keeffe
Question:75 Mr. E. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the current position in relation to the TB eradication scheme and the next round of TB testing. [11221/95]
Eric J. Byrne
Question:88 Mr. E. Byrne asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the current position regarding bovine TB testing; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11239/95]
Tony Killeen
Question:174 Mr. Killeen asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the current position regarding the TB eradication scheme. [11503/95]
Ivor Callely
Question:194 Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the reason behind the restructuring of the TB eradication scheme, in particular the suggestion of the rotary veterinary inspections; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11404/95]
Ivor Callely
Question:195 Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if he will qualify his recent reference regarding the use of overseas veterinary practitioners in order to indicate confidence in Irish vets; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11405/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 16, 17, 27, 58, 69, 75, 88, 174, 194 and 195 together.
Bovine tuberculosis in Ireland is at a low level and over 99 per cent of the seven million animals in the national herd are clear of this disease. The remaining incidence is essentially residual infection.
Progress in achieving a significant reduction in the remaining infection level has been slow, difficult and costly and I have instructed my Department to review the present eradication strategy with a view to increasing efficiency and effectiveness.
EU funding has been approved for the 1995 TB eradication programme on the basis that testing of the national herd will be rotated between practices over the next two to three years. Rotation of testing within practices does not meet the conditions for drawdown of EU funding. Negotiations have been ongoing with the Irish Veterinary Union for some considerable time on introducing revised testing arrangements to meet the conditions to secure EU funding and a ballot of union members is currently taking place on my Department's final proposals for rotation of testing and fees.
I am extremely disappointed that the executive committee of the union has recommended rejection of the proposals given the limited scale of the changes being proposed and the substantial increase in fees that has been offered. On 9 June the Minister wrote to all veterinary practitioners who undertake testing of behalf of this Department to outline the full facts of the case, to spell out the implications of non-acceptance of the package and to appeal for acceptance. I take this opportunity to renew the Minister's appeal for acceptance.
I should make it clear that a continuation of the status quo is not an option. Thus non-acceptance of the proposals will leave me with no alternative but to proceed with unilateral measures and to take other appropriate steps. The objective of reducing and eradicating TB from the national herd is the major animal health priority for me. In addition, failure to secure EU funding or to implement the eradication programme approved at EU level would be most undesirable.
There is a strike pending by veterinary surgeons which will have a serious effect on the industry. This is the third time a strike by veterinary surgeons occurred under a Fine Gael Minister in the last three Fine Gael administrations. Administration of the scheme, for which £61 million is available, costs £18.5 million. That compares with the £19.3 million paid to the veterinary surgeons who implement the scheme. Why is 26 per cent of the money spent on administration? What steps is the Minister of State taking to reduce that outrageous overspend? Veterinary surgeons have conducted random sampling since 1989. Why will the Minister of State not publish the results of those tests?
There was a go slow in 1991 when the Deputy's party was in office——
Not an all out strike.
——by the Irish Veterinary Union. It had major consequences for the industry. I hope our realistic proposals will be accepted. I have no problem with publishing information available in my Department or which has been allocated by veterinary surgeons.
What steps are being taken to reduce administrative costs?
That will probably form part of the savings we are trying to make. The Minister is reviewing the structures within the Department. If cost savings can be made in any part of the agricultural service they will be made.
There is not any scheme where 26 per cent of the cost is spent on administration.
I agree with the Deputy but the problem did not arise this year. We are trying to do something about it.
What steps is the Minister of State taking?
I have called in the Irish Veterinary Union and negotiated with it to the extent that my proposals have been put to a ballot. I have given a commitment to it and to the IFA that if the proposals are accepted I intend to have regular discussions with the farming organisations, the Veterinary Union of Ireland and departmental veterinary officers on how best to administer the scheme, introduce cost savings and improve the scheme. I agree with the Deputy that a hands-on approach was not adopted by recent Ministers but if given the opportunity I intend to take such an approach. I hope our proposals will be accepted.
Does the Minister agree that the health of the national herd is of prime importance and that attacking various groups serves little or no purpose? Farmers receive compensation payments equal to half the amount paid to veterinary surgeons for implementing the scheme. What is the Minister of State doing to continue the scheme? The survey was designed to measure the performance of veterinary officers in the Department compared to veterinary surgeons in private practice. It was to be a dipstick to measure TB levels. Will the Minister publish the results of the survey and tell us how departmental veterinary officers compare with those in the private sector? Why are there 3.5 reactors per 1,000 when in 1988 there were 2.7 reactors per 1,000? Does the Minister of State share his Minister's view that tuberculosis cannot be eradicated, in other words this scheme should be called the tuberculosis minimising scheme?
I agree that the health status of the national herd is important and that is why we must draw down the European funding being provided. If we refuse the £4.5 million this year the wrong signals will be sent back to Europe.
Half of it will be spent on pay rises.
In 1991-92 when Fianna Fáil was in office £30 million was returned to Europe.
Will the Minister answer my question?
I agree the health status of the national herd is of paramount importance and that we must protect it against all vested interests, I have already confirmed to Deputy Cowen that any reports in the Department which should be published will be published.
When?
Immediately. As regards the APT figure of 3.5 reactors per 1,000 cattle referred to by the Deputy, it is too early to say what the figure will be this year. It is estimated at 3 per 1,000, a slight increase on last year's figure of 2.9. The figures referred to at present are incorrect and inaccurate and we will have to wait until the end of the year to know the real figure.
Will the Minister confirm that the incidence is, unfortunately, higher than in 1988 when we set up a body to eradicate TB? Does he accept that diseased animals other than livestock were a contributory factor in individual cases where action was taken and that failure by the interests concerned to deal with this issue is of significant concern? If, as seems likely from what their representatives said, vets refuse to co-operate in the scheme this year, what precise alternative arrangements does the Minister propose to put in place and will the people appointed have the ability and technical expertise to carry out TB testing?
I do not wish to preempt the outcome of the vote by the vets taking place at present.
What are the contingency arrangements?
We have them in place.
What are they?
I will not give the Deputy details today.
Because there are none.
Let us hear the reply to Deputy Cowen's question.
This is the age of transparency.
And threats.
I do not want to preempt the outcome of the vote which will take place today and tomorrow. I am not making any threats here today; I am saying that my officials have drawn up contingency plans which will be put in place in the event of the vets refusing to co-operate in the scheme this year. We have also placed an advertisement for the recruitment of vets in the national newspapers. Without revealing the details, I am confident that these plans will prove effective if they have to be used.
Will the scheme be ongoing?
My obligation is to draw down the necessary funding from Europe.
And to keep the scheme going.
The funding for this year is £4.5 million, £2.5 million of which relates to 1994. I will do everything possible to draw down this funding. There is a possibility of increased funding next year. If the Veterinary Union of Ireland refuses to accept the minimalist proposals I have put to it I will do everything possible to put in place a system which will ensure the necessary rotation so that we meet the EU requirements and draw down the necessary funding. There is an obligation on me to do this and I am sure the Deputy will support me in doing so.
Given that he classed himself in the March edition of the Irish Veterinary Times as “the vet friendly Minister”, will the Minister say why he has made a veiled threat to vets involved in meat inspection that they might be taken off the Department's list if they refuse to go along with his proposals in regard to testing? Does his alternative proposal mean that testing will be privatised and carried out by vets and farmers? Will 50 per cent of the extra funding from Europe be used to pay more to vets and to meet administration costs?
I made no veiled threats to vets carrying out inspections in meat plants.
The Minister did.
Does the Minister of State agree with the Minister?
I did not make any such threat today.
Is the Minister of State standing behind the Minister?
With a knife.
The Minister acted very responsibly and has explained the position to the vets in plain and concise terms. He has also explained the importance of acceptance of the proposals by them.
He threatened them.
He did not. He put the facts to them so that they know what they are voting on and the consequences of rejection by them of the proposals. On the arrangements which will be put in place, I will not give the full details here today——
The Minister will not give any details.
——as the vote will take place today and tomorrow.
The contingency plans are not to be made public. So much for transparent government.
If the Deputy was voting on an issue tomorrow it would be very unfair of me to stand up in the Dáil——
The public and farmers have a right to know the alternative arrangements.
Please, Deputy Cowen.
If Deputy Cowen's party has given Opposition parties as much information as I have given him today there would have been no need for a beef tribunal.
I did not get information from the Minister.
The Deputy got all the information he needed.
Farmers have not got any information from the Minister on the contingency plans.
The Deputy's bullish attitude will not get him anywhere.
What I am saying is the truth.
I have given more information in reply to questions today than any previous Minister, and I can stand over it.
The Minister has not given any information on the contingency plans.
I asked the Minister if 50 per cent of the extra funding from Europe would go to the vets?
A figure of 8 per cent was agreed under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and if the vets accept the rotation there will be a further 15 per cent. This year the vets will get approximately £2 million of the total funding if they accept rotation and the other £2 million will be used to reduce the very high levies on meat and milk. I am sure farmers will support this move.
What about compensation?
It is a very good offer.
It is not much good to a farmer who is locked up and whose livelihood is gone.
When will the extension to the office in Ballybay be opened? When the Minister came into office the disease level in Monaghan was the highest in the country and nothing had been done about the problem for many years. I thank the Minister for visiting County Monaghan and ensuring that extra staff were provided to tackle the problem. When will this office be opened for business? He has done more in this area during his short time in office than his predecessor.
The Deputy is getting into specifics.
I have taken a personal interest in Ballybay and have visited the office which should be opened in the very near future. The APT figure for Monaghan in 1984 was approximately 8.78 per 1,000 while the current figure for this year is 6.5 per 1,000. We are making progress in the eradication of TB in County Monaghan and I am sure Deputy Cowen will be delighted to hear that.
Absolutely, I am overcome.
I want to repeat my question which was not answered: does the Minister of State agree with his senior Minister that bovine TB cannot be eradicated? Have he and his Department shown the white flag to the vets in agreeing that the head of a veterinary practice, not his Department, should nominate the other vet?
And give them a pay rise in the meantime. It would be true to say that the Minister is claiming a Pyrrhic victory in a phoney war.
Does the Deputy want the £1 million handed back?
Let us hear the Minister please.
The Government has no scheme that will solve our problem.
I support the Minister in all the actions he has taken——
Will the Minister agree that it cannot be eradicated?
Deputy Byrne has a very low capacity to listen. In 1965 a former Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Haughey, declared that Ireland was TB free. The Deputy will be aware of what happened subsequently. Previous Ministers failed to eradicate TB. We will do everything possible to put a system in place that will make major inroads into the residual TB remaining. The Deputy can judge us in two years' time.