I understand the Minister proposes to reply to the questions together. I now call on the Deputies in the order in which they submitted their questions. I call, first, Deputy Tom Kitt to put his question to the Minister.
Private Notice Questions. - Dunnes Stores Industrial Dispute.
asked the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment if she will make a statement on the Dunnes Stores dispute.
asked the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment if she will seek a meeting with representatives of the management of Dunnes Stores in order to persuade them to avail of third party arbitration to bring about a speedy resolution to the current industrial relations dispute.
asked the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment the steps she proposes to take to help secure a resolution of the current industrial dispute involving employees of Dunnes Stores and if she will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take the three questions together.
The dispute between Dunnes Stores and MANDATE is a matter of serious concern to the Government. It is in everybody's interest that industrial peace resumes at Dunnes Stores as soon as possible for workers, suppliers and consumers. I want to see talks get under way as soon as possible to resolve this dispute as, like any industrial dispute, it can only ultimately be resolved around the table.
The strike action at Dunnes Stores arises from a dispute between the company and the trade union, MANDATE, about payment for Sunday working, about zero hour contracts and a number of other issues. This is a long-standing dispute that gave rise to strike action in a number of the company's stores last year. An agreement was reached at that time between the parties which resolved the problem for the time being. More widespread introduction of Sunday trading, with its consequences for staff working conditions, has given rise to the current dispute.
Dunnes Stores is a major employer. We need to have and to encourage more firms on this scale in all sectors. It is, therefore, a matter of regret that this dispute has reached the stage where the company's workers are now on strike and many of its stores are closed. The way forward in this case is to build on the model of national partnership and to seek a resolution of differences through discussion. Everything will have to be and can only be sorted out around the table. It is ultimately a matter for the parties concerned to resolve the industrial dispute with the assistance of the dispute settling services provided by the State, if necessary.
The Labour Relations Commission has offered its services to the parties. They are aware that the commission's offer of assistance still stands. I understand the union is willing to attend talks at the Labour Relations Commission but that the company is not. As I understand matters, the company tends not to avail of the assistance of the State's dispute settling services. These services are voluntary and there is no compulsion or management or unions to use them. However, given the serious situation that has developed in this dispute and the effect the strike could have on others not involved, I call on the company to reconsider its position and to avail of the expert assistance of the Labour Relations Commission.
On behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House I echo the call by the Minister of State on Dunnes Stores management to avail of the Labour Relations Commission and to enter into a dialogue with MANDATE to resolve the differences, as it did in Northern Ireland with the worker's union there on outstanding problems. What is the Minister doing to bring the parties together to save not only the jobs of the workers but of suppliers? When will the Minister introduce legislation to regulate Sunday trading which is, in effect, a central issue in this dispute? Will the Minister accept that her colleague, the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Richard Bruton, promised such legislation during the Cork by-election campaign? The IPC report on Sunday trading is available and the Minister is in a position to produce this legislation as is every other EU member state. If this legislation is introduced, will the Minister accept that it would clear the air on this issue and it would help to bring the parties together to resolve this dispute?
The central issue in this dispute is that the parties are not talking to one another. I find it difficult to understand why one of our major companies has not come to the table to discuss the issues concerned with the union that represents the vast majority of its workforce. I am available if either party wishes to speak with me. As Dunnes Stores is aware, it can contact me at any stage if it is interested in a resolution of this issue.
The issue of Sunday trading and Sunday working is a complex one. Many of us would not wish to see the development of widespread Sunday trading with supermarket shopping and so on. It is difficult to regulate this legally and I am taking legal advice on it. It is difficult to devise a system where it is possible to regulate Sunday opening by the major stores in a way which would not close the small local shops which provide a service that is widely appreciated.
I acknowledge there is not much the Minister can do. It is a pity that a company that has such an enviable record in meeting consumer needs should treat its workers in this way. Is the Minister prepared to seek a meeting with representatives of the management with a view to persuading them to avail of arbitration whether the State apparatus or some third party that might be acceptable to both sides?
As the management know I am available to meet them at any stage.
It is not enough that the Minister should say she is available. The Minister should seek a meeting with the management. If it refuses to attend such a meeting we can make up our own minds.
There is little any Minister can do in this dispute. The Minister can introduce legislation to regulate Sunday trading but there are difficulties involved. Will the Minister agree with me and with — I assume — the majority of the people in condemning Dunnes Stores' management for the manner in which it has treated the workforce? A company which celebrated 50 years in existence with such aplomb and give-aways still does not have a pension scheme. We can support the workers and we can bring pressure to bear in this dispute by continuously outlining the conditions under which these people are expected to work: zero hour contracts; no guarantee of work, having to report and be available and no pension scheme. Some 10 per cent of the workforce are permanent after 50 years——
A question please Deputy.
Will the Minister publicly denounce this type of work practice and support the workers in their fight against one of the biggest retailers in the country and yet one of the worst employers — if we are to believe what the unions has said and I have no reason not to believe them?
I am anxious to see an early resolution to this dispute in the interests of workers, suppliers and consumers. It would not be helpful at this stage for me to comment on the issues involved in the dispute. The way we do business in an industrial relations framework is through partnership and negotiation. We have long established voluntary mechanisms — the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. I call on both parties to come to the table to discuss their differences sooner rather than later in the interests of everyone concerned. Any industrial dispute, ultimately, has to be settled through discussion.
I support the Minister of State's call but does she accept that the IPC in its report on Sunday trading spells out clearly that collective bargaining is not enough? It is clear legislation is required. All our EU colleagues have legislated. Does the Minister of State accept that in the absence of legislation workers are being exploited and are being coerced to work on Sunday? Does she not feel obliged to ensure that employees work voluntarily and are properly paid? The Minister of State should outline her thinking on this matter and the type of legislation she will introduce.
There are two separate issues the first of which is Sunday trading and the other hours of work for individuals. On the question of Sunday trading, there is legislation dating back to 1938 which has never been enforced. I do not think anyone would expect us to revise legislation dating back almost 60 years. Most people are happy with the position where the corner shop is open on Sunday to sell bread, milk and newspapers and they can go to their local DIY store and garden centre. In relation to the larger supermarkets and clothing outlets, there would be legal difficulties in regulating Sunday trading for one group and not for another. No matter where one's sympathies lie in relation to keeping Sunday as a special day on which there is no large scale trading there would be legal difficulties which I am examining in my Department. I may be precluded from moving as I might wish for legal reasons.
On the question of hours of work, we are examining the EU directive on working time which is due to be transposed into Irish law in 1996. I am examining the issue of Sunday working hours in that context.
As a Sunday shopper, I am delighted to hear the Minister of State is not necessarily going to ban it. I agree with her that there would be enormous legal difficulties. In a free society we need to be careful and must realise that this company is unique in terms of the attitude it has adopted. Other companies play it well with the agreement of their workers. With a view to bringing this dispute to an end has the Minister of State or her Department been in touch with the management of this company since the dispute arose? Does she agree, given the way the dispute has evolved, that it is very unlikely that the two sides will come together unless a third party such as the Minister intervenes?
The first port of call in any industrial dispute has to be the established relations machinery. If Ministers were to step in at the beginning it would be almost as if the parties concerned were being rewarded for not going to the table and using the established machinery which we are paying for as taxpayers and which works extremely well on our behalf. Dunnes Stores management is aware that I am available if it wants to contact me. I have contacted Margaret Heffernan's office and I am available if she wants to come back to me.
Does the Minister of State agree that if this major outlet continues to refuse to use the industrial relations machinery for which the taxpayer is paying, which was put in place to solve disputes of this nature, and continues to adopt such a hard attitude — the workers can ill-afford to be out on strike as they are paid poor wages — this dispute will have a knock-on effect on suppliers and other industries?
I am concerned about the effects of this dispute not only on workers but also on suppliers and their employees. Because we are dealing with a major company there is a widespread effect on employment. That is the reason I am calling on the parties concerned to come to the table sooner rather than later. At the end of the day they will have to do this if this dispute is to be resolved. It is extremely important that our large and successful public companies follow the established pattern of industrial relations and the way we do business. We have had a successful social partnership and have a good record when it comes to strikes because people have used the established machinery. I call on this major public company to use the established machinery and come to the table.
That concludes Question Time for today.