Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Nov 1996

Vol. 471 No. 6

Other Questions. - Montbard Project.

Micheál Martin

Question:

4 Mr. Martin asked the Minister for Education whether her Department, throughout 1993 and 1994, was actively involved with Westmeath vocational education committee in supporting and promoting the Montbard vocational training opportunities scheme; and if she will place in the Library of the Houses of the Oireachtas and make available to Members of Dáil Éireann the complete Department file on the Montbard project, containing details of all meetings and correspondence between officials in her Department and personnel working with Westmeath vocational education committee. [21426/96]

On 31 May 1994 in answer to a parliamentary question, I informed the House that my Department had indicated approval in principle to a proposal from the County Westmeath Vocational Education Committee for the provision in France of a module of a course under the vocational training opportunities scheme provided this could be done within the normal level of funding for the scheme.

However, as I informed the Deputy in reply to his recent parliamentary questions, my Department wrote to the acting chief executive officer of the vocational education committee on 11 February 1994, 16 May 1994 and 28 July 1994 indicating that no further action be taken on the project pending full consideration of the matter by my Department.

I am advised it is highly unusual to lay a departmental file in the Houses of the Oireachtas and I do not consider it appropriate to do so in this instance. I can outline for the Deputy the nature of correspondence and meetings between my Department and the vocational education committee in relation to the conduct of its affairs — including Montbard.

I tabled this question because there had been a rather dishonourable attempt on the part of the Minister and her Department to distance themselves from the Montbard project, to give the impression that Westmeath vocational education committee was running rough-shod over all sorts of rules and regulations and had not consulted anybody. Will the Minister confirm that meetings were held between her departmental officials and Westmeath vocational education committee personnel on 24 June 1993, 17 August 1993, 29 September 1993, 18 October 1993 and 9 December 1993? Will she confirm that meetings were held in relation to the Montbard project and that, additionally, a letter of identification was furnished to the chief executive officer of Westmeath vocational education committee which he could present to the authorities in France to assist him in acquiring the building in Montbard? Will she confirm that her departmental officials were supporting this project and that, only when it arrived in the Department of Finance when its details were queried, did the Department of Education begin to query it?

The Deputy has mentioned specific dates. While I have a great deal of information with me I cannot confirm what the Deputy said except to repeat what I said in my original reply, the contents of which I would be prepared to go through in detail with the Deputy. By way of general response, I should point out that Westmeath vocational education committee and the management of its financial affairs have been the subject of an inquiry conducted by Mr. Séamus Paircéir, the results of which were published. I now have confidence in Westmeath vocational education committee whose systems of financial accountability to my Department are transparent.

The development of a module of the vocational training opportunities scheme in France, on educational grounds, was one to which my Department registered no objection——

But the Minister's Department supported it.

The caveat was: yes, you can develop it, it might be quite a good idea bearing in mind the numbers of people unemployed, taking into account the benefits of travel and language skills involved but it must be done within your budget. On the one hand we saw the educational merits of Westmeath vocational education committee developing a VTOS, implementing some of its course in Montbard in France. However, my Department had to make it clear to the vocational education committee that while educationally we do not have any difficulty with this project it must be done within existing funding. There is an Act governing the funding of vocational education committees within whose provisions Westmeath vocational education committee went ahead, entered into negotiations and purchased a building beyond its statutory powers.

My Department informed that vocational education committee on a number of occasions that it had acted beyond its statutory powers in this and other areas. The outcome was that, while Westmeath vocational education committee was not in any financial position to purchase the building, and did not have the necessary permission to do so, another education authority purchased the building which continues to be used for educational purposes. What gave rise to investigations, the results of which were published and made available, was the fact that Westmeath vocational education committee, in this and other cases, had acted outside of good financial managerial practice and was in no position to pursue the best of ideas because they did not have a penny with which to do so. That was the outcome of the inquiry. As the Deputy will appreciate, since then we have strengthened the financial systems within the overall vocational education committee sector to the extent that I now have confidence that such circumstances will not recur.

Does the Minister agree that only when a request for additional expenditure on the project was received via a letter from the chief executive officer of Westmeath vocational education committee to her departmental officials on 1 February 1994 did those officials go to the Department of Finance, seeking the requisite funding and that only on receipt of a negative reply from the Department of Finance, was the fax of 11 February 1994 sent to Westmeath vocational education committee? The Minister should admit that she was totally supportive of the Montbard project, not merely in principle but in detail. I might remind her that, in reply to a parliamentary question in May 1994, she said that, in various instances, vocational education committees provide accommodation for VTOS——

May I ask the Deputy to refer to the Minister.

Does the Minister agree that she said on 31 May 1994, in reply to a parliamentary question, that in many instances specific approval for renting or leasing is not generally sought or given in regard to vocational education committees providing accommodation for VTOS projects? If the Minister were the chief executive officer of Westmeath vocational education committee and received a letter from her programme manager to the effect that he had received her portfolio in the case of the Montbard project, congratulating her on such an enlightened initiative, what signal would she think that would send to the people in Westmeath vocational education committee other than that she, the Minister for Education, was enthusiastically behind that project since her programme manager had congratulated them on it in April 1994?

This matter was the subject of an inquiry whose findings were put in the public domain. There was never any question about the educational interests that could be generated in having available a module of VTOS to those participating in that programme in France. There was no doubt that this vocational education committee was told that anything it pursued must be done within its budget. Before drawing up his Christmas list I would advise Deputy Martin to check his bank balance because, while it may be quite a good idea to plan certain purchases——

But the Minister supported this project.

This project was the subject of an inquiry whose results were made public.

I have read them.

Its results were made available within the public domain, the consequences of which left no doubt that Westmeath vocational education committee was spending in areas in which it had not authority to do so. While that vocational education committee had a project that was interesting educationally, there was no doubt in the mind of its acting chief executive officer that the constraints on him in responding to such a project were those of confining expenditure within his budget, which was where the difficulties arose. I must point out that it was not something that culminated in a large bill to the Irish taxpayer because the building was sold on and is in educational use. The affairs of Westmeath vocational education committee gave rise to an inquiry, whose findings were published, the outcome of which resulted in there being put in place, within the overall vocational education committee sector, clear lines of communication on what can and cannot be spent. As a result, as Minister for Education, I can now say to Westmeath vocational education committee and others that I have confidence in their financial management.

Why will the Minister not publish the correspondence given that last evening the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs clearly spoke about the need for a freedom of information Bill to be introduced in the House in the near future? Is there not some breathtaking hypocrisy involved here since, on the one hand there is talk about a freedom of information Bill and, on the other, the Minister will not make available correspondence between her Department and a public body such as Westmeath vocational education committee?

My advice is that it is highly unusual to lay a departmental file before the Houses of the Oireachtas. I do not consider it appropriate. This matter has been fully investigated. For the benefit of the Deputy I will outline the nature of correspondence and meetings——

I do not want that. I want the correspondence published because there has been too much hypocrisy on the part of the Minister's Department.

I have received advice and do not intend to publish the correspondence. This matter has been subject to public scrutiny and the outcome is satisfactory.

I protest. The Government refers to freedom of information legislation but the Minister will not publish letters, basic correspondence, with public bodies.

The matter has been adequately dealt with.

The hypocrisy of the Labour Party, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Education is outrageous.

Top
Share