It is proposed to take: Report of a Sub-Committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges; Report of a Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs on the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Bill, 1995; Report from the Select Committee on Social Affairs on the Employment Equality Bill, 1996; No. 16 — Litter Pollution Bill, 1996 — Second Stage (resumed) and No. 17 — Decommissioning Bill, 1996 — Second Stage (resumed). Private Members' Business shall be No. 45 — motion concerning CIÉ.
Order of Business.
There are no matters to put to the House.
I am at a loss to know what will happen next in regard to the report of a sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I have only had an opportunity to have a brief word with Deputy Dempsey, the Fianna Fáil nominee on the sub-committee. Can I take it that following moving the motion here, the report will be laid in the Library, that this is an interim report and a more detailed one covering other matters will be completed at some stage in the future, that the committee will meet next week and Report Stage of the compellability Bill will be taken? Last week I said I would like to get to the bottom of this, but we appear to be taking one step forward and three back. Will the Taoiseach suggest some orderly way to proceed? My views on what should have happened in the first place are on record. I want to work with the committee of the House on this matter, but the process in this regard appears to be long drawn out.
From the brief explanation I received from Deputy Dempsey, it appears 63 per cent of the names are not identified. Presumably that means the other names can be identified, but only a handful are named in the report. Given that we have waited more than two months for that handful of names to be revealed, how long will we have to wait for all the names in the barrel to be revealed? Where are we moving in this regard? Does it not highlight the need to establish a tribunal, which I called for in the first instance?
Deputy Bell is due to give a report of the sub-committee after the Order of Business.
I understand Deputy Bell will tell us the sub-committee will lay the report in the Library and that it will meet again next week. I am conscious that in the matter of a few months, if not a few weeks, there will be a general election. I will not participate in a process that will drip feed good news or bad news to me or anyone else. I want to know the truth. As I made clear before, regardless of what a report contains, I will not waste my time worrying about the drip feeding of the findings of reports. I do not know who that suits, it does not suit me or my party.
I agree with what Deputy Ahern said. The procedure established by the Government to inquire into the Dunnes Stores' payments is a nonsense. It will not go anywhere. The compellability Bill is stalled pending Government amendments and even when it becomes an Act people will be entitled to legally challenge it. The only way we will get to the truth is by establishing a tribunal of inquiry along the lines of the hepatitis C tribunal. Many of us spent two years in this House trying to get basic information about the hepatitis C scandal and it took the tribunal a matter of weeks to put the truth before us. I urge the Taoiseach and the Government to set up a tribunal along similar lines on this matter to ensure the cloud that hangs over public life can be lifted once and for all.
It is a matter of considerable importance that the cloud that hangs over public life should be dissipated quickly. On receipt of this report, the Government will study it and will make decisions quickly. It is very important that there be a quick determination of the ultimate procedure to be used to get all the relevant information into the public domain, that the final decision as to the form of that be taken quickly and not postponed. I have not seen the report, but from what I have heard I believe it presents the result of valuable work. This report does not complete the inquiry as one would have expected, but it has presented the raw material for inquiry. It is a matter of urgency that we proceed to deal with the matter. I intend we will do that. The Government will consider this matter promptly with a view to making the requisite decisions to take the matter forward.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply and Judge Buchanan for his work on this report. I do not know if the Cabinet will meet today or tomorrow to discuss this report. We will co-operate with it in any way possible. Judge Buchanan's work involved dealing with what was in the Price Waterhouse report, but we have moved on since then. Under the rules of the sub-committee Deputy Dempsey was unable to show me the report, but told me the first page of it dealt with affidavits Judge Buchanan sought but was not able to receive, about which everyone has been talking and about which I read weeks ago. Will the Taoiseach and the Government, through the Attorney General and the legal aids available to the State, find a way to deal with this matter. There is agreement in the public domain that we want this matter dealt with. I said that on 4 December, but we are now into February. The matter should be dealt with. I have more to do than wait for this report.
It is important that the truth be brought out as quickly as possible in the interests of everybody concerned as well as in the interest of political life. It is also important that whatever steps or powers are needed to get that information are put in place as quickly as possible and that we are sufficiently deliberate in choosing the methodology to ensure that it works. I can assure the House that the Government will proceed with all due speed in this matter consistent with getting the job done properly.
I do not wish to offend, but I detect a new determination on the part of the Taoiseach in this regard. If that is the case, I welcome it and urge him to establish a tribunal of inquiry. As we said two months ago, it is the only thing that can get to the truth. At this stage no other mechanism will establish the truth. I welcome the fact that the Government will make an early decision in this regard. That is what the public wants.
Perhaps we should not debate this further on the Order of Business.
There will be plenty of opportunities to discuss what is, will be or was the appropriate course to adopt. The method we have taken, commissioning Mr. Justice Buchanan to do preliminary work, was the right and most economical way of doing that part of the work. At this stage, other methods may be necessary to bring the matter to finality. I am determined to bring the matter to finality as promptly as possible so that everybody's reputation can be treated fairly.
I thank the Taoiseach for not guillotining or forcing through the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Bill, 1995. All Members dealing with Committee Stage for the last few weeks appreciate that that was necessary, despite the fact that perhaps it would be necessary for this particular committee. What are the Government's intentions for the Bill and when is it to be taken?
The Taoiseach seems to be suggesting that there are other ways to look at this issue. Is the Government's intending to look at the tribunal route?
I would prefer to confine what I have to say to the general statements I have already made. I am anxious to deal with this promptly and to do whatever we ultimately intend to do straight away and not to proceed through further intermediate steps. The steps taken so far have been entirely justified. They have been the most economical and fairest way of doing the preliminary work.
It is a waste of time.
Henceforth we must move with expedition to finalise the matter. I appreciate what the Deputy has said about the Compellability Bill. It is important to note that this legislation has been known to be necessary by every Government since 1970. It was in 1970 that the Committee of Public Accounts was unable to do its work because of the lack of that legislation. Now, in 1997, this Government has introduced it and intends to pass it.
It is also important to enact that legislation in a manner that is fair to everybody and that does not allow a Star Chamber to be established in the House but that allows a fair and full pursuit of required information in a just way——
The Taoiseach did not think that five years ago.
——in accordance with the separation of powers and the appropriate protections for all concerned.
The Taoiseach thought it up.
On that basis the Government is looking at the remaining arguments in regard to the Bill.
That is the problem with being a conqueror. There is too much to prove.
We are taking due account of ideas and proposals from all sides on Committee Stage and we will come forward with appropriate amendments on Report Stage in light of that.
Would the Taoiseach agree that if it is proposed to establish a tribunal of inquiry, the immediate urgency about getting a result within days of the Compellability Bill is removed? Will the Government consider deeply the points made by the committee? It is the view of all committee members that these are matters of fundamental importance for Irish democracy that should not be rushed through with regard to the Buchanan report.
This should not be debated.
I agree that the Compellability Bill is a matter of fundamental importance but it was not dealt with by any Government since 1970. Every Government knew we needed compellability legislation, including Governments in which the Deputy's party was represented.
Now we know why.
This Government has introduced compellability legislation and intends to enact it.
The permanent government does not want it.
We intend to do so in such a way as to be consistent with the separation of powers. Then we will not have a situation where the Oireachtas attempts to trespass on the province of the courts or the reverse.
Nor should the Government trespass on the Oireachtas. I refer to Article 28 of the Constitution.
The Taoiseach, without interruption.
We will ensure that the rights of Members in this House to information, be they in Government or Opposition, are properly protected. The Government is taking all the necessary care to deal with this matter promptly and fully. Regardless of any contingencies or hypotheses referred to by the Deputy, it is important that this matter be thoroughly dealt with in any event and that is what is happening.
Would the Taoiseach acknowledge that this Compellability Bill was 90 per cent drafted and almost ready for publication when he came into office? It has taken him three years to get it as far as it is and he is reversing a number of the provisions.
The draft was wrong.
The draft was too wide. It has been narrowed by the Government.
The Deputy's party was in office, or perhaps he would say almost in office, for seven years prior to the accession to office of this Government. It had not introduced this legislation.
It is a mess.
This Government has introduced this legislation, will enact it and will preside in the next Dáil over its operation.
Hopefully we will have a tribunal but I acknowledge that the Taoiseach has over the weekend found himself on the road to Damascus.
The road to Nobber.
The Deputy is on the road to Castlepollard.
It is the Bruton shuffle.
Deputy Quill is in possession.
When will the expert group proposed for the evaluation of the regional technical colleges be put in place? Will there be a student input into the deliberations of that body?
That might be more appropriate as a parliamentary question.
I like to answer any questions posed by the Deputy.
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
The teacher's pet.
I note the contrast.
I give brief answers to Deputy Harney's questions and lengthy answers to Deputy Quill but I answer all of them. This matter is being vigorously pursued by the Minister for Education, who intends to ensure that decisions will be taken at an early date. At this stage the membership of the committee is being finalised and I expect the Minister will make an announcement reasonably soon. The points expressed by the Deputy on composition will be borne in mind.
A student input.
Since Easter is early, on 30 March, and the Social Welfare Bill, little as there is in it, will have to be passed at that time, could the Taoiseach tell me when it is intended to publish the Bill and bring it before the House? It will have to be very early. Fr. Healy got it right. It is good on the rhetoric but not good for the poor.
The Deputy really means he will have little to say about the Bill because he will not find anything to criticise.
We will have plenty to say.
The Deputy made a slip. The Social Welfare Bill will be published before the end of this month. It will provide major changes — better provisions for carers——
Nonsense. What about the poor?
——better provisions for the qualifications for old age pensions, large increases in various social welfare benefits, a general improvement for those in receipt of social welfare and a sharing of the benefits of prosperity.
All of which the Deputy's party could have done in Government.
Even as spokesman for equality and law reform I pointed out faults in social welfare legislation. The Bill will give an opportunity to point out many more.
On the Chemical Weapons Protection Bill, can the Taoiseach tell me when it is proposed to publish this legislation and for what reason does it come under the Department of Enterprise and Employment? It seems an unlikely Bill for that Department.
Deputy Rabbitte is the chemical weapon.
This matter concerns industrial product and therefore is dealt with by the Department responsible for industry. The legislation will be introduced in the next month or so.
Now that the prison authorities and the Department of Justice officials dealing with the prisons have said those prisons are in crisis, and there will be no movement on additional places for two years because of the Government's decision to delay for over a year the Castlerea and Mountjoy prisons, has the Taoiseach any plans to try to deal with the matter on a short-term basis?
The Deputy is characteristically misinformed on this matter. This Government is providing a planned series of additions to the number of prison places, including the opening of Castlerea, a second prison in Wheatfield and a number of other proposals of which the Deputy is well aware.
How long have we been waiting for this?
The record of this Government in regard to the provision of additional prison places is in marked contrast——
There were 4,000 prison releases last year.
——to the record of the Deputy's Government from 1987 when no additional prison places were provided.
That is not what the polls say.
Or the Taoiseach's statement that there were too many in prison.
Was I so misinformed when I read that when the Minister for Justice was out of the country the Minister for Finance and the Government agreed to change our 1995 prisons programme and that nothing happened for a full year and the delay is caused by that?
The truth is nothing happened for seven years when the Deputy's party was in office.
And nothing will as long as the Taoiseach is in office.
Not good ground for the Deputy.
Was it not the Taoiseach who said there were too many people in prison in April 1995?
In regard to a promise made by the Taoiseach which hopefully will not require legislation, could he clarify his statement about the nurses' dispute that "it can and must be solved"? Had he in mind that it would be solved before or after they go on strike on 10 February?
We cannot debate that now.
The Taoiseach does not seem to be aware of the fact that 26,000 nurses are going on strike. He is silent on the issue.
Is it only the easy questions he answers?
Has the Taoiseach any proposals on improvements in education for people with a disability, particularly in light of a recent court ruling?
The Deputy would be advised to put down a parliamentary question in regard to all promised legislation.
I have done so in the past.
The Deputy will not get an answer.