Bertie Ahern
Question:1 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his meeting with the Russian Prime Minister, Mr. Viktor Chernomyrdin. [3662/97]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Meeting with Russian Prime Minister.
Mary Harney
Question:2 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the discussions he held with the Russian Prime Minister regarding the ban on Irish beef exports. [3673/97]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
I met the Prime Minister of Russia, Mr. Viktor Chernomyrdin, in Shannon on Wednesday, 5 February last. The meeting was a most useful one. We discussed bilateral trade and economic matters including the issue of imports of Irish beef to Russia, relations between the European Union and Russia and the general security architecture in Europe.
Arising from our discussions, the Prime Minister and I have agreed to pay official visits in 1997 to Russia and Ireland respectively. It is intended that both these visits will involve a trade delegation with the objective of increasing the turnover of trade and investment between both countries.
We had a very constructive exchange of views on the issue of Russian imports of Irish beef. I acknowledged that the Russian authorities had a genuine responsibility to ensure that the concerns of their consumers were adequately met. I set out the Irish concerns in regard to the selective ban which had been imposed by the Russian authorities on imports of beef from certain counties in Ireland. I underlined to the Prime Minister that the Irish control measures in relation to BSE were of the highest standard and stressed that the overall level of BSE here remains extremely low. Finally, I invited the Prime Minister to send his Minister for Agriculture and appropriate technical officials to visit Ireland to inspect our control arrangements and satisfy themselves as to the total adequacy of these and all other relevant arrangements.
I am very glad to say that in response the Prime Minister adopted a very constructive attitude to solving the problems on this issue. In particular he indicated support for continued importing by Russia of substantial quantities of Irish beef. He agreed to accept my invitation to his Minister for Agriculture to visit Ireland to inspect the situation. Arrangements are being put in train to bring this about as soon as possible.
Does the Taoiseach see any immediate prospect of reversing what has effectively been a partition of the country from the point of view of beef exports? Was he able to give any assurances to the Russians that the issue of BSE is not as serious as they thought and that the incidence of BSE is quite low in our herd? What was the response of the Russian Prime Minister to that, and what guarantees was the Taoiseach able to get from him?
I was able to point out to the Russian Prime Minister that the most recent monthly figures show quite a significant decline in January as against December. On the other hand, the second half of 1996 showed a larger incidence than the first half of 1996, so there is a very recent downward trend which follows upon a slightly less recent upward trend. The control measures that the Government has instituted are exceptionally strong, and that has been acknowledged by the Russian veterinary authorities. The Russian Prime Minister, in his meetings with me, was exceptionally positive about continued imports of Irish beef. He made it clear that he wanted to see Irish beef exported to Russia on a continuing basis. He saw this trade as mutually beneficial to Ireland and to Russia. He explained, however, and I completely understand, that he must ensure that his consumer protection authorities are able to take the steps necessary in their scientific judgment to ensure that their consumers have the sense of assurance that they need to have. I believe that is the case. I am, therefore, reasonably confident that if we can see a continuance of the recent downward trend in BSE incidence there will be a gradual and ultimately complete lifting of the ban on individual counties. There is a provision in the agreement for a specific review in April of this year. I am glad that at my invitation the Russian Minister for Agriculture will come to Ireland to see these controls for himself. It is a good sign of the Russian Prime Minister's commitment to the beef trade with Ireland that, without notice, he quickly agreed to send his Minister for Agriculture here.
Given that the decision will be reviewed in April, does the Taoiseach intend to make his official visit before then?
I expect the official visit will not be before that date.
Given the significance of the Russian market which takes 25 per cent of our beef exports, would the Taoiseach agree it would be more sensible to make the visit before April than subsequent to the review date?
I have been extremely effective, as has the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Yates, in getting the necessary political commitment publicly expressed by the highest political official, apart from the President of Russia, to the continuation of the beef trade between Ireland and Russia. Notwithstanding the county ban, the level of beef exports to Russia in terms of total volume is undiminished. That is an important consideration which needs to be taken into account in any discussion on this matter.
After my meeting with the Russian Prime Minister, I made the point publicly that we must respect the right of Russian authorities to take whatever steps they believe necessary in their independent scientific judgment to protect their consumers. It would be wrong to expect the Russian authorities to behave differently from the way we would expect Irish political authorities to behave in a similar situation, namely to take due account of the technical advice from their scientific personnel. While it is important to maintain the good strong political contacts we have at all levels of the Russian administration, in the course of those contacts, we must show that we respect the integrity, scientific competence and responsibility for consumer protection of the Russia authorities which we would expect of them if they were exporting a food product to this country.
Is it fair to conclude that following the Taoiseach's discussions with the Russian authorities, the visit of the Russian Minister for Agriculture, presumably prior to the April review, and the incidents of BSE in the past six or nine months there will be no danger of further counties being included in the ban? Perhaps the ban will be lifted from some of the other counties.
That depends on the monthly statistics of BSE incidents. It is important to recognise that the problem is the level of incidents of BSE. Counties have been the subject of bans because of higher than average incidents of BSE. The problem we intend to overcome is BSE which we will eradicate as speedily as possible by reducing incidents of it. I have no doubt from the contacts and discussions I had with the Russian Prime Minister that the political goodwill exists to remove the ban on all counties, but it is up to us to reduce incidents of BSE with the measures we are taking and allow the Russian consumer protection authorities to make a valid independent scientific judgment in this matter. Having not only met the Russian Prime Minister but on an earlier occasion the senior Russian veterinary official, Dr. Avilov, I have the greatest admiration for the integrity and scientific competence of the authorities in Russia in this matter. They are approaching it responsibly and are making difficult decisions with integrity, which we must respect in everything we say and do.
Would the Taoiseach agree it would help confidence in the Russian state service and among Irish consumers, if feedstuffs being fed to cattle in Ireland were found to be free of bone and meat derivatives. Will the Taoiseach agree that it was alarming to discover over the weekend that despite meat and bonemeal derivatives being banned in Ireland for a number of years a high percentage of feedstuffs for cattle still contain meat and bonemeal in breach of the law? Will he take immediate steps to ensure the law is complied with? Many people were deeply shocked by what was revealed over the weekend.
As I am sure the Deputy is aware because his party was in Government at the time, the use of meat and bonemeal in cattle feed was banned in 1990. My information is that in the early years the ban was not rigorously enforced——
I am talking about now.
——and there were substantial illegal imports of meat and bonemeal during that period. I am glad the ban is now being rigorously enforced. We would not have this problem of incidents of BSE if the ban imposed in 1990 by the then Government was adequately enforced by it.
I would like to raise a couple of points about these discussions which, as the Taoiseach said, covered areas other than beef. Was what the Taoiseach delicately described as "the security architecture of Europe" discussed? The Taoiseach recognised the Russians responsibility to protect their people. Will he say if the Russian Prime Minister's concerns about the expansion of NATO to the Russian boundaries was raised? Did he ask for or was he given the support of the Government for broader security architecture in the context of the OSCE which the Russians are promoting and which is in the interest of nonmilitary and neutral countries such as Ireland?
The answer is "yes" to both questions.
Did the Taoiseach raise the concerns about the expansion of NATO?
Yes.
It is amazing that when one puts a simple question, one gets a major policy decision. Did the Taoiseach take the opportunity to raise with the Russian Prime Minister the concerns felt in this country about Chernobyl type incidents which could arise because of the unsafe nature of many of Russia's power stations and the rundown state of nuclear submarines, etc. which are a danger not only to the rest of Europe, but to this country? Given that this nation is so conscious of nuclear pollution, did the Taoiseach raise that question?
This was a comparatively brief meeting and that subject was not raised. I understand the Deputy's concern about the issue but we concerned ourselves with beef, east west relations in terms of security, the enlargement of the European Union and with trade and investment in both directions. Those four topics occupied the full hour and a half of our discussions. I did not have discussions on the topic raised by the Deputy. However, I would be happy to avail of any further opportunities which arise to raise concerns about that matter. As the Deputy will understand, the Russians are concerned about the health of citizens who live close to nuclear installations——
They were not concerned about the people in Belarus.
——and, without any prompting from us, are anxious to do everything they can to protect their safety. If we can urge them to do anything over and above what they are doing, we will do so.
To revert to the question of animal feedstuffs, the Taoiseach seemed to suggest the situation was worse in the past. Is it the case that the Government was carrying out surveys of this kind for a number of years and not publishing them or was the Taoiseach making a rough guestimate? Has the breach of this law, for a number of years now, been known to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and suppressed or was the survey which was published the first of its kind?
Let us avoid repetition, it is a luxury we cannot afford at this time.
The best scientific opinion and explanation for the recent increase in the incidence of BSE in Ireland is that meat and bonemeal from bovines, even though it ought not have been, continued to be fed to bovines during the period after the ban was imposed in 1990. That is the best available opinion as to the otherwise difficult to explain increase in the incidence of BSE in the second six months of 1996. The incubation period for BSE is lengthy and, therefore, events in terms of feeding that might have occurred some years ago do not manifest themselves, in terms of incidents of BSE, until some years later. Generally speaking BSE is to be found in comparatively elderly animals who have lived and who have been on this earth since the Deputy's party was in Government.
Did the Taoiseach——
Order, please. I call Deputy Bertie Ahern.
I asked a simple question. Was this the first survey——
If the Deputy is not satisfied with the Taoiseach's reply he has many remedies he can follow up.
Was this the first survey——
Order, please. I have called Deputy Bertie Ahern.
I am anxious to be helpful. As I was making some remarks at Deputy McDowell's expense, I should also deal with his question. I cannot answer the question about the surveys but I will get the information for the Deputy and I will refer the matter to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry.
Under the trade, investment and commercial discussions the Taoiseach has had with the Russian authorities did he mention the ongoing discussions about Shannon being a hub for passengers both from Russia and the former Soviet Union? Have the agreements about pick up rights between Ireland and Russia, about which there were difficulties some years ago, been resolved? Has any further new commercial development taken place since 1995?
Yes, we discussed that matter at some length. The Russian Prime Minister was extremely familiar with the important role Shannon has played as a hub for Aeroflot and other Russian airlines. He recognised the fact that some of the planes are now of such capacity that, on the shorter haul journeys across the Atlantic, they do not require the refuelling facilities they required in the past. He said it is important that a new business be found to deal with this matter by Russian planes flying longer distances after they have touched down in Shannon, where such arrangements would be necessary. He indicated not only a great familiarity with this issue but also a strong commitment to continue to develop in a proactive way Russian aeronautical investment and business in Shannon. That the meeting took place in Shannon is an indication of the importance of Shannon as an international hub.
The Taoiseach indicated to Deputy Burke that in these discussions he had not raised the issue of Chernobyl. Did he raise with Mr. Chernomyrdin the concern of EU leaders at the way in which the democracy in Belarus is lessening as a result of recent elections? Following recent elections in Belarus there is now a dictator in power who wants greater integration with Russia. In effect he wants to go back to the USSR.
I had the opportunity of raising my concerns about the situation in Belarus directly with the President of Belarus when I met him in Lisbon before Christmas. The Deputy is right in saying the situation in that country is serious in terms of democratic rights, particularly the rights of the opposition. That does not help in dealing with other issues. There are also serious economic problems in Belarus which are not unconnected with the political difficulties.
Russia is a country that is pursuing the democratic path with great courage. They are persisting on the democratic road despite very substantial reductions in average income per head, which in many other countries might lead to a reversion to desperate or autocratic approaches. Despite that, the Russian authorities, including Prime Minister Chernomyrdin, President Yelstin and many others, opposition and Government in the Duma, continue to pursue the democratic road. We should not in any way attempt to conflate the situation in Belarus with the situation in Russia which is quite different.
In relation to the security policy of the EU and its important relationship with Russia, did the Taoiseach state the Government's position on this matter and, if so, what was that position? Clearly the Russians have an interest in the developing security position.
The main concern which the Russians have is with the enlargement of NATO, not with the European Union's approach. The Russians have no problem with the expansion of membership of the European Union, including the expansion of the common foreign and security policy of the European Union to include new members, including its commitment to the eventual framing of a common defence policy which is contained in the Maastricht Treaty. The Russians have no problem with that. Their problem is with the expansion of NATO. I said to the Prime Minister that the view of our Government is that no improvement in the security of one member state, or groups of member states in Europe, should be made by means of reducing the sense of security or self-esteem within the overall common European home of another member state. The Russians see proposals to expand NATO membership, but not to include them, as potentially enhancing the security of some at their expense. The way to overcome that problem is to develop a comprehensive European security architecture through the OSCE, or through other instruments such as the United Nations or consultative agreements of various kinds which ensure that all feel their security is being enhanced by any arrangements that are being made and that no country sees its security being disadvantaged by arrangements designed to advantage other countries. That was the general approach I put to him but obviously it is for others to make the decisions, namely the people who are involved in decisions about NATO membership, which we are not.
I still have not got the affection for the common defence which the Taoiseach has. Neither does the Minister for Social Welfare. Was the question of Aer Rianta, other than at Shannon, raised? Did the Taoiseach mention the importance of duty free sales to Aer Rianta within Russia and the importance of our duty free markets there? Will the Taoiseach express his view on the attack on duty free sales generally in the European Union?
This is a wide issue.
I would not wish to be drawn to a separate question by the Deputy because that would get me into trouble with the Chair and I would not want that to happen. The issue of duty free sales and the very successful operation which Aer Rianta has in various parts of Russia along its borders and at its airports in regard to duty free sales was touched upon in some of the contacts that took place in the context of my meeting. There are concerns about a particular border post between Russia and Finland where Aer Rianta has had some difficulties, but generally we are pleased with the work being done and the very successful business won by Aer Rianta in Russia in this area.