Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Apr 1997

Vol. 477 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 11, Finance Bill, 1997 — allocation of time motion for Select Committee; No. 26 — Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Bill, 1995 — Report Stage and, if concluded, Final Stage; and No. 27 — Credit Union Bill, 1996 — Report and Final Stages.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) No. 11 shall be decided without debate; (3) the Report Stage of No. 26 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be adjourned at 9.15 p.m.; (4) the Report and Final Stages of No. 27 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment; and (5) Private Members' Business shall be No. 61 — motion No. 21 regarding farm incomes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four matters to put before the House. Is the proposal for a late sitting satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11 without debate agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 26 satisfactory and agreed?

Mr. D. Ahern

Is it intended that the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Bill, 1995, will be passed before the election?

The Taoiseach

The Government has a programme of legislation which it intends to complete.

Mr. D. Ahern

My specific question was whether the Taoiseach expects the Bill to be passed before the election.

Mr. H. Byrne

Ask the Minister of State, Deputy Burton.

The Taoiseach

No decision has been taken regarding the timing of the general election.

Mr. Davern

The Taoiseach is deflecting.

The Taoiseach

The Government's legislative programme will continue. Our priority is to proceed with our legislative programme. An election when it occurs will not interrupt the legislative programme of this Government because it will continue in office after the election.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal on No. 26 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal on No. 27 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Taoiseach assured the House yesterday that the hepatitis C tribunal legislation would be introduced soon. From a report this morning, I understand there were differences at Cabinet yesterday about the legislation.

Proinsias De Rossa

What reports?

Mr. B. Ahern

I understand the Bill has been sent for redrafting. When will the legislation be introduced? Will it be taken this session?

The Taoiseach

I have not seen the reports to which the Deputy referred.

Mr. H. Byrne

The Taoiseach was there.

The Taoiseach

The reports are not accurate to the extent to which they refer to differences at Cabinet. This united Government wants to devise a fair system on a statutory basis to address this matter.

Mr. R. Burke

The Taoiseach, as usual, did as the Tánaiste told him.

The Taoiseach

It is the subject of close attention from a health point of view and also from the perspective of the requirements of the law.

Mr. B. Ahern

When is the legislation likely to be introduced? As the Taoiseach is aware, a member of the Government said the Government is taking too much legal advice on this issue. Has it been sent for redrafting? Will it be introduced this session?

The Taoiseach

It is not a question of redrafting. The legislation is being drafted and various problems which emerge in the course of the examination of the drafting are being overcome. That is continuing and we are anxious to conclude it as speedily as possible. I already indicated that the legislation is a priority as far as the Government is concerned. However, it is important it is legally well founded and can stand up to scrutiny or challenge, if that arises. Nobody should deprecate the value of legal advice in a matter which ultimately deals with legal rights.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us not attempt to debate the matter now.

Mr. B. Ahern

I do not want to debate it now. I seek an answer to my question. The Bill is not on the Government's priority list issued last week. Will the legislation be introduced this session?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Dermot Ahern raised that matter last week and I explained to him then that the fact the legislation was not included on the list was of no significance. It is a priority as far as the Government is concerned. It is proceeding at due speed and the Government will have the co-operation of all concerned.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Taoiseach continually tells the House that the Dáil and the legislative programme might continue until the autumn. Is he aware that one of his Ministers of State announced on national radio this morning that the general election will take place in five weeks time? Is this correct or is it another case of the tail wagging the dog?

The Taoiseach

Now that we have so many good radio stations available to us — Deputy Ahern knows what my favourite station is — it is not possible for me to listen to all of the output on the airwaves, although I do my best to listen in to all of them from time to time. I did not hear this speculation on the part of a junior member of the Government——

Mr. D. Ahern

It was very early this morning.

The Taoiseach

——but I can assure all those on the other side of the House who are in a somewhat frenetic condition that no decision has been taken as to the timing of an election, whether it be five weeks or five months. It is probable we will have one within the next five years.

Mrs. O'Rourke

She is a very powerful lady.

Ms O'Donnell

There is still no sign of the heads of the legislation which has been promised to place the compensation tribunal on a statutory basis. Is the Taoiseach aware that the State is behaving like a defendant which is a source of great concern and grief for the unfortunate women concerned who have been through so much? Will he give an undertaking that he will consult with them and not treat them in the cold way in which they have been treated in the past by this Administration?

Mr. Dukes

Soundbites stuff.

The Taoiseach

Everybody who has studied it will agree that this has been an extremely tragic and difficult issue. There have been genuinely difficult questions such as the balancing of rights which have had to be looked at but the overriding concern of the Government in everything it has done has been to ensure the maximum degree of care and compensation is available to the women concerned so that they can, to the best of their ability within the limits imposed by the tragic events visited upon them, reconstruct their lives and move on. Nobody can claim in this sad history that they have done everything right at all times. Nobody is claiming this on behalf of the Government. We are seeking to find a fair and soundly-based statutory solution to the problem. That continues to be a high priority of the Minister and the Government. As the Deputy is aware, the Minister will be meeting representatives of the women concerned this week. These points will be conveyed to them on that occasion.

Mr. S. Brennan

Will the Taoiseach state precisely when the MMDS-deflector system legislation promised yesterday by the Minister will be brought before the House? Will it be introduced within the next week or two?

The Taoiseach

The legislation will come into effect, in terms of applicability, when the regulator is appointed. As the House is aware, it is the regulator who will make decisions under the legislation. I am glad to tell the Deputy we are moving forward rapidly in regard to the appointment of the regulator. I understand interview processes will commence in the near future. The matter is being dealt with speedily.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Will there be a press announcement in Carrigaline?

The Taoiseach

The Government is anxious to remove the uncertainty and the difficulty created for so many people by the arrangements we inherited from the Deputy's party.

Mrs. O'Rourke

They were prepared by Deputy Jim Mitchell.

Mr. S. Brennan

Yesterday the Minister promised legislation would be brought forward to deal with the matter.

Mr. Dukes

Regulations.

Mr. S. Brennan

Is the Taoiseach saying it will be brought forward rapidly?

The Taoiseach

As the House is aware, one can provide for a change or detail in the law in either principal or delegated legislation. The matter may be dealt with in either delegated legislation, i.e. regulations or in principal legislation.

Mr. S. Brennan

When?

The Taoiseach

It may well be that the speediest way of dealing with it is by delegated legislation, i.e. regulations, which the Minister will prepare with all due speed. There will be no delay in the matter. As the policy decisions were only taken yesterday, it is a little unreasonable of the Deputy to expect a precise timetable in regard to the implementation of every single aspect.

Mr. S. Brennan

Nothing will happen until after the general election.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy wishes to be patient, it does not matter when the election takes place, the result will be the same. The commitments the Government is giving will be implemented whenever it takes place.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Whistling past the graveyard.

Mr. Martin

On the issuing of licences to television groups, will the Taoiseach accept that two and a half years ago during the by-election he told the people of Carrigaline a political lie?

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy should withdraw that remark.

Mr. Martin

The Taoiseach gave a clear commitment that on return to Government he would immediately grant South Coast Community Television an interim licence. He did not do this.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin——

Mr. Martin

Its licence application was rejected by the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not ignore the Chair.

Mr. Martin

The people of Carrigaline were told lies during the by-election. The Taoiseach is on video giving that commitment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has a habit of ignoring the Chair.

Mr. Martin

I was not ignoring the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy used the word "lie". I must ask him to withdraw it.

Mrs. Owen

It was disgraceful.

Mr. Martin

I used the words "political lie".

Mr. D. Ahern

It was made at a political meeting.

Mrs. Owen

The Deputy should withdraw the remark.

Mr. Martin

I will not and I have no intention of doing so. I am not impugning in any way the personal integrity of the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wishes to make a serious allegation against the Taoiseach or any Member of the House, he must put down a substantive motion. He may not throw an allegation of that kind across the floor.

Mr. Martin

I made a political allegation.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, I deem it to be an allegation that the Deputy must withdraw.

Mr. Martin

I made a political allegation. I am not impugning in any way the personal integrity of the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy once more to withdraw it.

Mr. Martin

I am making the allegation that during the by-election the Taoiseach misled the people of Carrigaline. I am not impugning his personal integrity in any way. I am making a political charge.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have decided the Deputy has impugned the integrity of a Member of the House and the allegation must be withdrawn unreservedly.

Mr. Martin

I withdraw the imputation of impugning the personal integrity of the Taoiseach. I made a political charge.

An Ceann Comhairle

I decide these matters.

Mr. Martin

I decide whether I have made a charge or an allegation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy does not.

Dr. Woods

Nobody will stop the Deputy from making a political charge.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Ceann Comhairle has not seen the video of the meeting in Carrigaline. If he had, he would know about the veracity of the statement.

The Taoiseach

I would like to respond to the charge made by Deputy Martin. Since becoming Taoiseach I have worked tirelessly——

Mr. Dempsey

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Taoiseach, please.

Mr. Dempsey

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is most unusual. I ask the Deputy to let us hear the Taoiseach first. I will then hear the point of order.

Mr. Dempsey

It relates to the statement the Taoiseach is about to make. You have made a ruling in relation to the allegation made by Deputy Martin. It was withdrawn on that basis. There should be no further discussion, otherwise you are leaving this open——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no idea what the Taoiseach is going to say.

Mr. Dempsey

I know what he is going to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no prior knowledge of what the Taoiseach may say.

The Taoiseach

I have no desire to get involved in an argument with Deputy Martin about this matter. I am ready to respond to what he said whenever it is appropriate.

Dr. McDaid

In relation to section 32 of the Family Law Act, 1995 unless the position is regularised before the general election, we will have to wait a further six months. I therefore ask the Taoiseach to regard the matter as urgent. As he is aware, one will not be permitted to take a case against the State in the courts, such as an extradition case, unless its proper title — Ireland — is included in all documentation. The notification to the registrar of intention to marry contains the words "Republic of Ireland". This means that every marriage notified in this way is invalid and will require to be reregistered some time in the future. Will the Taoiseach say if this legislation will be introduced shortly? Otherwise it may take six months before——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should have given me notice of his intention to raise a matter of this kind.

Mr. D. Ahern

It is promised legislation.

The Taoiseach

The legislation to remedy the difficulties to which the Deputy referred has been approved by the Government. In terms of expeditiously passing legislation, the maximum degree of political continuity the better. Obviously this is one of the reasons it is wise for the public to allow the Government to continue with its work.

Mr. D. Ahern

This will be the third attempt by the Government to put this matter in order. I gave a commitment yesterday on behalf of Fianna Fáil that we would co-operate in every way possible in terms of the hepatitis C legislation, which the Government seems to have a problem introducing.

On the matter raised by Deputy McDaid, the reality is that some people's marriages are not valid. Some women in these marriages are pregnant and it is vital that this legislation is introduced immediately. If the legislation has been cleared by the Government will the Minister for Equality and Law Reform introduce it immediately? We will also co-operate in this regard.

The Taoiseach

As I said, the legislation has been approved by the Government and I expect it to be published and to be in the hands of Deputies within the next day or so. I am grateful for the Opposition's offer of co-operation in regard to this and all the Government's legislative proposals.

Mr. D. Ahern

It will be third time lucky.

Mr. T. Kitt

In light of the "Prime Time" television programme last night, will the Taoiseach assure the House that Mr. Sean O'Callaghan, the subject of that programme, will be pursued by the Garda and questioned about the murder in County Kerry in 1985 of Sean Corcoran?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not Question Time.

The Taoiseach

As I think the Deputy is aware, we have an independent system of law enforcement which is not the subject of political direction. The attempt by the Deputy to engage in the making of directions in regard to who should be questioned about what offence suggests that he does not understand that one of the great pillars of Irish democracy——

Mr. T. Kitt

Democracy requires the law to be pursued.

The Taoiseach

——founded 75 years ago is that we have an independent police service and an independent prosecution service.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Taoiseach is washing his hands of the matter.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's attempt to politicise this issue does him and his associates no credit whatsoever.

Ms O'Donnell

The promised Food Safety Authority of Ireland Bill will establish an independent food safety board on a statutory basis. In the light of ongoing public concern about the absence of an independent body to monitor food quality, will the Taoiseach say if this Bill is receiving priority from the Government and when it will be published?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy is aware, the Food Safety Authority is already in operation and is functioning on a non-statutory basis, as most bodies established by the State initially function.

Ms O'Donnell

It has no teeth.

The Taoiseach

The legislation to underpin the authority and to strengthen its powers of enforcement is receiving priority attention in terms of drafting and I expect it to be introduced in the House soon.

Mr. O'Donoghue

There has been considerable criticism over the years of Irish extradition legislation by people in authority in Great Britain. Does the Taoiseach intend to take up the question of British extradition arrangements with the British authorities following the failure of the Thames Valley police to seek the extradition from this jurisdiction of an individual convicted of three manslaughters despite having been advised two years ago of his presence here?

Mr. Dukes

That is a change of view by Fianna Fáil.

Mr. H. Byrne

The Minister did not have a good day yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter was debated in the House yesterday.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy will appreciate that Britain is a different jurisdiction and that what it does in terms of seeking extradition from other jurisdictions of people sought for the prosecution of offences within the British jurisdiction is a matter for the British authorities. If the Deputy believes that the British authorities have been remiss in this matter he should raise the matter with the British Ambassador and express his concerns in that quarter. In so far as the arrangements for extradition here are concerned, these function normally.

Mr. O'Donoghue

On that matter——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Sargent.

Mr. Sargent

A number of people have contacted me to express their extreme disappointment at the lack of priority being given to national parks and heritage areas, given that a number of areas, particularly in Killarney, are being pillaged by private interests. People do not know if national parks are amenity or conservation areas and obviously there is a conflict. Will legislation governing this issue be introduced before the summer?

The Taoiseach

I expect the Government to approve next month the 33 heads of this Bill which will provide greater legal protection for national parks. From a long-term development point of view, it is important legislation. I assure the Deputy that I will take a personal interest in the matter and keep him informed of progress in terms of drafting.

Mr. B. Ahern

I do not wish to take issue with the Taoiseach over a non-contentious Bill, but I received a letter from him more than 12 months ago in which he stated that the 33 heads of the Bill would be ready shortly.

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy has a great memory.

Mr. B. Ahern

I received several amiable letters from the Minister on this issue and am very familiar with it. However, there is a problem with the legislation and the Taoiseach has not informed Deputy Sargent what it is. The Taoiseach should tell the Deputy the truth.

There are 73 Bills listed to be taken during the next few months. Some of the Bills which will be taken during the next two weeks are not that important or urgent. I have no idea what legislation which will be taken after that and it would be helpful if the Taoiseach informed Opposition Whips which Bills will be taken before the general election.

The Taoiseach

We would like to take all the Bills before the general election——

Mrs. O'Rourke

Do not be so ridiculous.

The Taoiseach

——and if we get sufficient co-operation from the Opposition we will do so. To the extent that Deputies are interested in the legislation, the maximum degree of continuity in political terms and in terms of governmental responsibility the better from the point of view of the expeditious passage of the legislation.

Mr. R. Burke

The Taoiseach has made the same statement three times.

Mrs. O'Rourke

He is fooling himself.

The Taoiseach

We will continue to pursue our legislative programme during this and the next term of office.

Mr. D. Ahern

That is wishful thinking.

Mrs. O'Rourke

It is called self-delusion.

Mr. B. Ahern

If the Taoiseach wants to be flippant about the matter that is fine.

The Taoiseach

I am not being flippant.

Mr. B. Ahern

He told Deputy Davern yesterday that the greyhound Bill was urgent and would be taken shortly. However, this legislation which was on the priority list before Easter is now on the D list. The Government has no intention of taking any of these Bills and the Taoiseach should be honest and say so.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin's disease is spreading and Deputies are beginning to get reflective. However, the Deputy has been deflected.

Mr. S. Brennan

Tell us the date.

Mr. D. Ahern

Give us a truthful answer.

The Taoiseach

I welcome Deputy Ahern's interest in the greyhound Bill. There are genuine legal difficulties in regard to the constitutionality of some of the proposals in the Bill. Given that legal advice has to be taken on some issues, it is not possible to proceed with this Bill as quickly as was intended. There is no disagreement with the industry on policy issues but it is important that the legislation conforms fully with the constitutional requirements. I have repeatedly answered questions on the greyhound Bill and indicated my commitment to it. Contrary to the Deputy's implication, I have honestly indicated to the House the difficulties which have arisen. I think Deputy Davern will agree that I have been honest with him and the House on this matter and Deputy Ahern should withdraw the inference he made.

Mr. D. Ahern

When will No. 13 on the C list, the Cabinet Confidentiality Bill, be published and brought before the House?

The Taoiseach

I answered a question from Deputy Harney on that matter yesterday.

Mr. D. Ahern

I cannot remember the answer.

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy was probably asleep.

A Deputy

The answer was muffled.

The Taoiseach

I am sorry if Deputy Ahern's memory fails him.

Mr. D. Ahern

The problem is the Taoiseach's usual flippant answer.

The Taoiseach

I gave an answer which was accurate and full.

Mrs. O'Rourke

For once.

The Taoiseach

I said in the next week or two.

Mr. Power

I want to raise two items with the Taoiseach. First, when will we ratify the convention on the safety of United Nations and associated personnel? Second, will the Taoiseach give serious consideration to setting up a special forum to deal with the Army hearing claims? It is ridiculous and unsatisfactory that much of the compensation goes to the legal people dealing with the cases.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer if that matter were dealt with by way of a question.

The Taoiseach

I have no information on the ratification of that convention, but I will look into the matter. The issue of Army deafness claims has been dealt with here on a number of occasions by the Minister for Defence.

Mr. D. Ahern

Not satisfactorily.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am going on to the business of the House promptly. This cannot continue indefinitely. I called Deputy O'Donoghue earlier.

Mr. O'Donoghue

On a point of clarification, I put it to the Taoiseach that the authorities were aware of the existence of a dangerous killer in our midst for almost two years and that——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy O'Donoghue, that matter was well aired in the House last evening when it was raised on the Adjournment.

Mrs. Owen

The matter is before the courts. The Deputy should be careful.

Mr. Davern

In view of a recent court decision relating to the non-payment of compensation to a young apprentice garda injured in the course of his duty, and the recent serious injuries to an apprentice garda in Limerick, will the Taoiseach agree there is an urgent need to ensure young gardaí who are not fully qualified are paid full compensation for serious injuries received in the course of their duties?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should pursue that matter in the ordinary way.

The Taoiseach

I am not familiar with the details of the case referred to by the Deputy. I will ask the Minister for Justice to investigate the matter.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Will the Taoiseach agree that the legislative programme reflects a left of centre Government, as described by the Tánaiste? If it does, when did Fine Gael jump from the right to the left, and does the organisation know because they do not know in my area?

Mr. Callely

The Taoiseach has a problem replying to that one——

The Taoiseach

I do not have any problem.

Mr. Callely

——as he does not have a representative in Dublin North East, which makes it a little difficult. Will the Taoiseach indicate the progress that has been made on the commitment to put in place procedures to deal with threatened strike action in essential services, having regard to the threatened action by over 3,000 professionals in the health services, including physiotherapists, speech therapists and others, which will have a major impact on those services?

An Ceann Comhairle

I invite the Deputy to raise that matter in a formal manner. I called Deputy Kitt earlier, I hope he has a brief and relevant matter to raise.

Mr. Callely

Am I entitled to raise the matter of the commitment to put in place procedures in this regard?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Dukes

Not on the Order of Business. Sit down.

Mr. Callely

There is a commitment in the programme, A Government of Renewal——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have advised the Deputy how to proceed.

Mr. T. Kitt

The Taoiseach was very clever in his answer to me earlier, but I raised a serious issue. Is the Taoiseach suggesting the gardaí should not investigate the questions raised in the "Prime Time" programme? I hope he is not suggesting that. I merely want to see justice done in regard to this matter.

The Taoiseach

I said the gardaí operate independently in the investigative functions they undertake under a Commissioner, and the Commissioner does not take directions from the Government as to the persons or the crimes they should investigate. The Deputy's attempt to raise an individual case in the House in a particular way suggests he does not understand that the gardaí are well able——

Mr. T. Kitt

The Taoiseach does not seem to be concerned about justice being done.

The Taoiseach

——to make their own decisions without political prompting from the Deputy or the Government in regard to who they should prosecute. It is entirely improper of the Deputy to raise an individual case in this House.

Mr. T. Kitt

It is a serious question.

The Taoiseach

It is a question which is quite serious in the level of respect the Deputy has shown for the independence of the Garda Síochána in this matter.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Taoiseach has taken questions about Brendan Smyth and others.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's suggestion is quite chilling in terms of its implications for the approach he would take if, unfortunately, he ever had responsibility for an office.

Dr. Woods

On legislation about which there is no constitutional difficulty, on which a committee of this House has proposed it should proceed, on which this side of the House is willing to co-operate and which is very important to people with disabilities——

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy should come to the point.

Mr. Howlin

Ask the question.

Dr. Woods

——will the Taoiseach say when the Government will proceed with the amendment to the charitable lotteries Bill to enable charities to have a higher ceiling on the prizes they give? This can be done either by direct legislation or by regulation?

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need for elaboration now.

Dr. Woods

I do not mind which option the Taoiseach chooses. Is there any possibility of getting this legislation passed before the election?

The Taoiseach

Major legislation on charities is being prepared and it is expected it will be before the House in the second half of the year. The Ministers for Justice and Finance are examining the possibility of doing something quickly about the cap on prizes offered by certain charities on an interim basis. No conclusion has been reached on that but the matter is being considered with some urgency.

Dr. Woods

A stroke of the pen is all that is needed.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Raphael Burke had a stroke of the pen and we know what happened.

Mr. R. Burke

Yes, and I am very proud of it. The Taoiseach praised the radio system earlier. Where would he be without LM-FM?