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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Oct 1997

Vol. 481 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Public Service Pensions: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, bearing in mind the long established principle, first adopted by the Government in 1969 and confirmed to this House repeatedly since then, that public service pensions should be related to current rates of pay, considering that recently negotiated increases in public sector pay should therefore be reflected by proportionate increases in the pensions paid to already retired employees, and recalling the pledge of the Government parties outlined in An Action Programme for the Millennium to protect public service pensions, calls on the Government to implement improvements to the pension entitlements of retired nurses, teachers, gardaí, civil servants and employees of local authorities and health boards, in order to re-establish parity with increases obtained by serving employees under recent pay agreements.

I regret the Minister for Finance is not present to take this debate. This is, perhaps, characteristic of his cavalier attitude to this entire issue. There are 77,150 people who have been made an explicit pledge by the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats on 4 June 1997. I do not mean to be discourteous to the Minister of State, Deputy Jacob, whose responsibilities do not extend to public service pensions, who is present on behalf of the Government, but it is sad the Minister for Finance is not present. Perhaps he has been delayed and is on his way?

I am sure he is en route.

I am sure he is. The whole question of public service pay and the implementation of the strategic management initiative are two central issues of Government policy. If they are not, they should be. As the Minister has arrived, I unreservedly withdraw the remarks I made earlier.

I accused the Minister of things for which he is manifestly not responsible.

He merely missed the Minister's presence.

On behalf of the Opposition, I welcome the temporary Minister for Finance to the House — this is a temporary Administration.

The issue of public service pay and the implementation of the Strategic Management Initiative are central issues of Government policy. If they are not, they should be. Modernisation of the Irish public administrative system is the key to the continuing success of our economy and the maintenance of our competitive position in an increasingly competitive global economy. The fair treatment of all public servants is essential to achieving that objective. While tough negotiations between staff and unions are to be expected, they should not be confused with the overall objective of ensuring we have a competitive, well motivated and efficient public service.

Clarity and commitment must inform negotiations, but is not surprising that neither clarity nor commitment inform the current negotiations. The Government's position is unknown. We knew Fianna Fáil's position in Opposition and, in so far as one could ever know anything about the Progressive Democrats, we also thought we knew their position in Opposition, but we do not know the position of this temporary Government. Why is that the case? This matter has a lengthy history and as a former Minister for Finance I am well aware of it.

The last formal meeting between the Public Service Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and Government representatives took place on 23 June, a number of days after the poll on 6 June but three days before the Dáil met to form a new Administration in which Deputy McCreevy is the Minister for Finance. Understandably, the professional civil servants representing the Government and the incoming Minister indicated to the Public Service Committee that they could not give a clear view on the question of parity between pensions and the rate of pay on which pensioners retired because they were awaiting the political direction of the incoming Administration. The professional civil servants said they would get back to the committee as soon as possible on the matter. The committee indicated that it wanted the matter dealt with as quickly as possible.

The Public Service Committee was aware that on 4 June, two days before the general election, the engaged couple, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, made an explicit pledge. They made a governmental vow to the 77,150 pensioners who had been assured during their working lives that they would retire on a pension of 50 per cent of their salary and that if their salaries were altered as a consequence of general increases, arbitration awards or variations or structural changes in the relationship of the grades, the traditional 50 per cent parity link between salary and pensions would be maintained. On Wednesday, 4 June, before their marriage was consummated on 26 June, the engaged coupled issued a joint statement on public service pensions in which they stated:

The Fianna Fáil leader, Mr. Bertie Ahern TD, and the leader of the Progressive Democrats, Miss Mary Harney TD, have announced today that in Government they will resolve the problems surrounding the pensions of retired public service staff. Both leaders acknowledge the role played by public servants over the decades and believe that retired public service staff should receive fair treatment. Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in Government will request the Central Review Committee of Partnership 2000 to resolve the claim for pension parity for retired public service staff as a matter of urgency. Mr. Ahern and Ms Harney are committed to restoring the link between pensions and increases in current rates of public service pay.

As Eoghan Harris might say, the subtext of that message is that 50 per cent means 50 per cent. This means a retired civil servant should get 50 per cent of the pay of a working civil servant who is doing the job from which he or she has retired.

I draw Members' attention to the words "as a matter of urgency". I suppose 77,150 votes constitute some class of urgency. They amount to roughly ten quotas or ten Deputies. The Government would dearly love ten more Deputies sitting on its benches. Two or three more would give it an overall majority. A total of 77,150 people were told that, as a matter of urgency, the traditional link of 50 per cent would be restored. I am amazed at the Minister for Finance's interpretation of the definition of "urgency" because responsibility for delivering this marriage vow has fallen on his shoulders. The Minister's sense of urgency is such that since 23 June no official meeting has taken place between the Public Service Committee of Congress who has responsibility to negotiate on behalf of retired pensioners and representatives of the Minister's Department. There have been exchanges and encounters. People have met to deal with other matters, which is the norm given the way we do business in our relatively small society. In regard to this issue, however, 117 days have passed, nearly four months into this jaded and tired Administration, and the sense of urgency that animates the Minister is that the Government has not yet even requested a meeting with the Public Service Committee. I therefore accuse the Government of reneging on its promise on 4 June to deal with this issue "as a matter of urgency". It has betrayed the people concerned.

The commitment to restore the traditional link between pensions and increases in current rates of public service pay was articulated in a press statement and on the doorsteps by Fianna Fáil candidates, not to mention the few candidates standing for the Progressive Democrats. That was sold on the doorsteps as 50 per cent of the rate of pay for nurses, teachers, gardaí and the other categories. I was aware, as was the Taoiseach when he issued that statement, of the complexities surrounding this issue. I was also aware of the cost implications involved in all these matters and the constraints on public expenditure in any Administration, but so were Deputy Bertie Ahern and, if we are to believe her, the handlers of the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney. She may not have understood fully the complexities of these issues, but her advisers, some of whom are no longer in this House, argued they understood them. Yet this statement was issued. It is a promissory note. It promised urgency and something that can never be explicitly distorted into something else. It promised the restoration of the link between pensions and increases in current rates.

The representatives of the public service committee of congress who, among other things, have helped to deliver partnership Government and various forms of partnership arrangements over the past ten years, accepted there were some anomalies and difficulties. They saw a case could be made in a particular way that might be excessive and proposed something reasonable on 23 June. Understandably, the professional civil servants representing an outgoing Administration could not commit themselves to a response on its behalf regarding a decision that would have to be taken after 26 June when the new Government would be formed.

The Minister, Deputy McCreevy, and the Government can be indicted in a third possible area, that even when presented with the option of a reasonable way to move forward on this matter that option has been spurned by an incredibly dramatic silence. Some 77,000 people heard the Minister's message loud and clear on 4 June. Some, but not many, may have changed their minds about the way they intended to vote. People, particularly those of pension age, do not readily change their minds about how they intend to vote, but they easily change their preferences. The Minister would not be where he is today if it were not for changes in regard to preferences made by people in this House and elsewhere. They ensured that instead of voting for the party to which they would normally give their preference their preference went to a party that has specifically misled public service pensioners.

The Deputy could have been Minister for Finance if there had not been a phone call. He should not forget that. Deputy Howlin would agree with me on that.

I wish to share the remainder of my time with Deputies Moynihan-Cronin and Penrose.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I was looking forward to hearing more from Deputy Quinn.

Unfortunately, the Deputy will not have much time to hear more from me on this side of the House because his days are numbered. It is less than four months into the job, but I have never seen as distraught, distressed and tired an Administration as this one. The Minister's friend and colleague, the Tánaiste, has not had a smile on her face since she was elevated to the highest executive political position held by a women in Government. One would have thought that on 26 June Santa Claus had come to Deputy Harney, but instead it appears the Wicked Witch of the West has arrived ahead of Halloween. Will the Government do something to make her happy because neither the lady nor this Minister has smiled in nearly four months?

This is getting better.

We understood the Minister had a certain ability to ensure she could smile. If her facial expression is an inner picture of the angst that is driving this Administration, all its members must be fiercely unhappy. If their happiness is related to their sense of urgency they must be distraught because the Minister has been 117 days in office and his sense of urgency has been such that he has not arranged a meeting with the public service committee of congress nor instructed the officials to have such a meeting. He has not asked them to consider the five options put on the table by the public service committee. Neither has he indicated, unless something has happened between 5.30 p.m. and 7 p.m., if the word "urgency" means anything to him — he would know what an urgent horse looks like if he had bet money on it——

I do not know what an urgent horse looks like but I know what an urgent punter looks like.

The Minister knows the meaning of a sense of urgency when a horse on which he has bet money is running. The Minister is running with pensioners' money. That money was taken from them, although they signed a contract that when they retired from the Civil Service they would get 50 per cent forever and a day of the going rate for the job from which they retired. The Minister's advisers promised, with a sense of urgency, that deal would be cemented, notwithstanding the complexities of productivity arrangements, restructuring and the other matters involved in finalising the complex and detailed negotiations that characterised the end of the PCW when we moved from a base of 3 per cent to a norm that was closer to 5.5 per cent.

If any Member knows the complexity of figures, it is the Minister. If anyone has a sense of urgency about getting rid of a previous leader of his party, it is the Minister. If anyone knows how a slow horse can bring ruin to punters, it is the Minister. I put it to him that he should have delivered on this matter given the knowledge he has and that is on file and the reasonableness of the proposition delivered to him by his representatives from the public service management division of the Department of Finance and the public service committee of congress. Because they were involved in the negotiations on restructuring they understood the need for productivity and were committed to the strategic management initiative and accepted fully there could be some difficulties on the margins. Notwithstanding that, they were prepared to negotiate to overcome them, provided the traditional parity link on which the Minister had given a commitment would be delivered. This Administration has been in office for 117 days but has failed to deliver on two points that were part of an election pledge.

In two and a half years the Deputy did not do anything.

That is not true. We could not do anything until all the deals were negotiated. The deals were not negotiated until the very end. The Minister will have an opportunity to respond.

All the deals have not been negotiated yet.

The Minister is incorrect. We could not arrive at a final position until all the productivity deals were done, the last of which was negotiated up to 26 June. The Minister knows that. If he does not know that, it is on the file which he should read. The people beside him know that.

There is nothing about it in what is before me.

It may not be in the script, but it is on the file. Sometimes one must go further than the script. The Minister's party made a promise before any of the negotiations which put him where he is now. That promise was simple, that as a matter of urgency the traditional 50 per cent link would be maintained. "Urgency" means that over 117 days we might get around to doing that, but there is no indication that the commitment to maintaining the 50 per cent link is on the table and congress is still waiting for a telephone call. What is the Minister doing about this?

I wish to share my time with Deputy Penrose.

Acting Chairman

That is agreed.

It is regrettable that it was necessary for the Labour Party to table a motion calling on the Government to implement increases in the pensions of retired public servants in accordance with the policies operated over the past 30 years. I thought that after 26 June that there would not be any need for further debate on this matter because I thought the Minister would deliver on his promise.

On completion of discussions on the restructuring of different grades in the public service the matter of pensions was left to the public services committee of the ICTU. Pensioners, in the belief that their pensions were protected by law, were satisfied for the matter to be clarified by the trade unions. It was only at the recent protest march that the union leaders expressed their dissatisfaction at the failure to secure justice for pensioners and indicated their determination to resort to industrial action if necessary.

Are there any provisions in the legislation governing payments to pensioners, following an adjustment in the salaries of particular grades in the public service, which could enable the Minister to discontinue the existing policy of pay parity? The amount of hurt and frustration felt by all public service pensioners cannot be overstated. This is understandable when one realises these are the same people who developed health, education, justice, local authority and other services during the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s when resources were scarce.

During and after the Second World War, salaries and working conditions were appalling. For example, in the 1940s, the starting salary of a nurse was £42 per annum and the maximum was £72 over six years. Due to economic constraints and the standstill orders on wages there was little or no increase until the 1950s, and then only by small amounts. At that time tuberculosis and fever were rampant in hospitals and institutions and many nurses fell victim to the ravages of TB at an early stage in their career. Equally, bad working conditions were the lot of teachers, gardaí and others in the public service.

Many retired gardaí never enjoyed a normal working week or overtime pay. They responded to the call of duty as required, day or night. Surely such dedication to duty is worthy of acknowledgment. In the 1930s and 1940s, psychiatric nurses had to endure many difficulties due to the non-availability of drugs for patients and custodial treatment was difficult on the patient and the nurse. Custodial treatment progressed to drug therapy, a big step forward — these nurses had to learn about these drugs which had not been in use when they started training — and then there were open wards and community treatment.

I know psychiatric nurses who voluntarily went into the community to get work for patients. They did this in their own time. These are the people we are now telling we cannot pay what is due to them. Despite their terrible pay and working conditions, these people demonstrated a commitment and dedication that enabled the different services to improve and develop to their present level. Our hospitals, institutions and the public service would not be what they are today but for the service of these people. It is also worth recalling that up to 1950 they worked 56 hours a week; most of those in retirement today worked at least 48 hours per week. The role these people played in the public service is widely acknowledged and this makes it more difficult to understand the current impasse.

Recently the Tánaiste was widely acclaimed for her statement that this was the year of pay for the workers. It is also payback time for pensioners and the electorate. Retired public servants fully deserve a substantial payback at a time of such buoyancy in our economy. It is necessary to draw special attention to the widows whose husbands died while serving or subsequent to retirement. Their position is extremely bad and should be examined. They only qualify for half the pension of their late husbands. How can they live without an increase? It is an insult to the lifetime of service their husbands have given to their country. I ask the Minister not to forget widows when he is paying the pensioners.

I appeal to him to resolve this matter without delay so that these pensioners can anticipate the payment of their adjusted pensions prior to Christmas. It has to be remembered that many of these pensioners are old, invalid, semi-invalid or in retirement homes. Many are now looking for subvention from the health boards to maintain their dignity at the end of their days because they cannot afford to pay for a nursing or retirement home. They also have considerable drug and medical costs which are causing them enormous stress. I urge the Minister to deliver on at least one election promise.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important issue. Like my party colleagues, I consider it regrettable that the Labour Party has to put down this motion. Canvassing in Westmeath I found this was one of the most important issues among the electorate and I lost a significant number of votes because I said it would take a considerable time to resolve.

The Deputy topped the poll.

I could have done better.

I suggest a running mate for the Deputy.

Deputy O'Rourke.

On 4 June, the bombshell was dropped that this matter was to be looked at urgently. Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats had already announced a trial marriage and we assumed this issue would be taken on board without further ado. I always have grave reservations about any statement from the Progressive Democrats. No party could be further from me on the political spectrum in the philosophy it espouses, particularly in the area of public expenditure. I respect the Minister, who is perhaps fighting against those who wish to hold him to 4 per cent. His colleagues hectored and lectured us about public expenditure, and they may be the root cause of the problem. I hope they are not.

The need to put down this motion is another example of this Government's cynical attitude to pre-election promises. No promises should be made at election time. The people should be told of the difficulties and treated with respect. They are not fools. A promise is a solemn contract which cannot be resiled. This attitude has already led to a number of U-turns by the Government. I hope this does not lead to another U-turn in relation to public service pensions.

As my colleague Deputy Quinn pointed out, the abject failure of the current Administration to resolve this issue as a matter of urgency has already constituted a withdrawal of, and a reneging on, the solemn promise given in the joint statement issued on Wednesday, 4 June, in relation to public service pensions. There can be no ambiguity about that. The literal, schematic, teleological interpretation — call it what you will — is there in black and white and the Government must deliver on it. There must be no prevarication or obfuscation on this issue.

As Deputy Moynihan-Cronin said, the people concerned — some of whom are relatives of mine — gave numerous years to the public service in hard times in the 1940s and 1950s. Some earned as little as £4 per fortnight. Let us not forget the menial level of pay those people earned and the difficulty they faced in rearing their families. Now, when their families are reared, they see an opportunity to get something back for the input they made. They have already fulfilled their contractual obligations and are now seeking a solemn commitment on the Government's part to honour that contract.

The public service has been at the centre of this country's development as a modern State. During the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s the public servants currently being affected by this Government's prevarication and obfuscation worked tirelessly to build the foundations of our public service. It is totally unacceptable that these people who contributed selflessly to the development of Irish society are being treated in such a shabby fashion by the Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrat Government.

The policies set out in The Action Programme for the Millennium state under the heading "Caring for Our Older People" that a key priority will be the protection of public service pensions. The Government must start to accelerate the delivery of that commitment. Prior to this policy commitment and prior to last June's general election polling day, the joint statement issued by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats highlighted their commitment to restoring the link between pensions and increases in current rates of public service pay. Government spokespersons say that the issue is still under consideration. Deputy Quinn pointed out that nothing has happened since 23 June. If that is true, it is unbelievable. How can the Government be considering the issue when no action is being taken? It cannot just put files away, leave them there and dust them down from time to time. Action must be taken now.

Pay parity between public service pensions and current rates of public service pay is a long established principle. As our motion states, that principle was first adopted by the Government in 1969 and the precedent for parity has existed since then. The hurt and frustration felt by pensioners and public service unions has reached a point where trade unions could well take industrial action over the Government's attitude and its unwillingness to concede to what it would call pensioners' demands but what I believe is a well established right.

The case of retired nurses serves to highlight the situation in which many public service pensioners now find themselves. Retired nurses have not benefited from the pay increases which working nurses received on 1 June 1996. Only those nurses who retired since the 1 June 1996 will benefit. As the Retired Nurses Association of Ireland has pointed out, this will lead to a two tier system of nurses' pensions. I spoke to a nurse this evening who retired in March 1996 and he feels that he is getting an extremely raw deal. He feels that this issue should be taken on board by the Government without any further fuss and people given their rights.

In a period of unprecedented economic growth and Exchequer returns, most people would agree that the situation in which public service pensioners now find themselves must be resolved. It will not suffice for the Government to say it is still considering the issue. The Government has already made a commitment to these pensioners and it is obliged to honour that commitment.

This issue affects 77,000 to 78,000 people. In relation to costs, my own view — though I would not be as sharp on figures as the Minister — is that £25-30 million could be involved. That is not a lot of money when one considers that revenue returns exceeded budgeted returns by £700 million. We are seeking a very small fraction of what has already been garnered by the Government. As the Minister is aware, a significant proportion of any increase is clawed back through the income tax system. The net cost, which is the one Revenue and Department of Finance officials will consider, will be significantly lower than £25-30 million. The Minister will have a better view in relation to the costs but that figure is my best estimate.

If the Minister fails to honour the promise the Government made, he will undermine a relationship which has been at the core of Irish development since the early days of independence, namely, the relationship between the public service and the Government. The basis upon which the process of social partnership between the Government and public service is built could also be undermined. That is a very important aspect we should not forget about.

Many people mentioned that the increases granted under the agreements were on a restructuring basis and could not be reflected in retired nurses' pension payments. I reject that notion. I feel that those pensioners have a legal right based on the European law principle of legitimate expectation. They worked and made their contributions based upon an expectation that they would get back 50 per cent of what they had contributed. If that does not happen, this could and should lead to a legal challenge against the basis of any assessment which would give a different result. People have a legitimate expectation to be paid this amount and, whatever solution is proposed, it should concur with that legitimate expectation.

The time has come for this Government to face the responsibility of being in power. It is all very well to make promises from the sideline. A Government must deliver on its promises when in power; when a solemn commitment is given on a particular issue it is even more important to deliver. Burying one's head in the sand is not only a totally inadequate response to the problem, it is undignified. The sooner the Government addresses the issue of public service pensions the better for everyone concerned.

This may well be a complex issue and the Minister will probably say it is. However, it is my view that if the Government does not meet the other side involved, namely, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the public service committee, it cannot expect to make progress and resolve the problem. Tardiness and obfuscation are no substitute for action. Four months, or 117 days, have elapsed since this Government took office. It is time this problem was resolved once and for all. I assure the Minister and the Government that pensioners will acknowledge the fact if progress is made. As Deputy Quinn pointed out, a number of solutions were put forward but not one has been refined. The Government has made no effort in the past four months to resolve this problem. I ask the Minister to tackle this problem; I hope he is not being hindered by people who preach and practise right wing doctrinaire economics, namely, his Progressive Democrat colleagues. I listened to too much heckling and lecturing from them when I sat on the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs. One thing the Minister can be sure of is that as long as I am in Dáil Éireann I will not support any Government that has a PD influence. I call upon the Minister to ensure immediately that the pensioners are given their just rights.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Michael Ahern. I move amendment No. 1:

To delete the words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann, recalling the pledge of the Government parties outlined in the Action Programme for the Millennium to protect public service pensions, notes that it is the intention of the Government to honour this commitment. Accordingly, the manner in which this commitment will be implemented is being considered in the current EstimatesBudgetary process."

More promises.

These negotiations will be concluded quite soon. Deputy Ruairí Quinn's campaign for the leadership of the Labour Party seems to have unhinged him. It certainly has thrown askew both his sense of humour and his sense of proportion when he thinks 117 days is a colossal amount of time and two and half years no amount. He used betting analogies in relation me. If he tries that type of logic, Deputy Howlin can rest assured he will assume the leadership of the Labour Party without a contest because Deputy Quinn is unable to count.

What about the Fianna Fáil dissidents?

Some members of the Labour parliamentary party seem to have regarded Deputy Quinn as being somewhat tardy in implementing this because my good friend, and his good friend and colleague, Deputy Breeda Moynihan-Cronin, was so inspired by his lack of alacrity in the matter that she felt compelled to issue a letter, before the election, to each public service pensioner in her constituency, a copy of which has found its way to my office in recent days.

Another leak. Now we know why the Minister has a director of press cuttings.

Knowing the politics of Kerry-South, I am none too surprised at that. I would not like to embarrass Deputy Quinn by quoting the lovely things Deputy Moynihan-Cronin said about him; she was very complimentary to the Deputy, and I would remind Deputy Howlin that if this letter is anything to go by I could predict which way Deputy Moynihan-Cronin will vote in a Labour leadership contest. She also outlines the problem of public service pensioners in considerable detail.

The Minister might as well put it on the record. It would be a shame just to wave it about.

I am sure the new leader of the Labour Party will take on board that Deputy Willie Penrose needs a new running mate to assist the party to win two seats in his constituency. That would please the Deputy because despite all the public servants who could not vote for him, 8,000 voters put him at the head of the poll. I have no doubt that if I were living in Westmeath I would feel compelled, despite my known party affiliations, to vote for him.

Will the Minister say a few words on the motion?

I agree I should speak on the motion, but I thought it only appropriate to respond to Deputy Quinn since he was so worried about the sense of humour of the present Government. I wanted to assure him that mine has not been diminished, any more than Deputy Rabbitte's or, I hope, Deputy Quinn's.

We know the Minister is good at clowning.

So long as the Minister does not unleash Noel Dempsey.

Deputy Dempsey has shown some skills in the past couple of days of which I was not apprised heretofore, but I will certainly bear them in mind for the future.

The subject matter of the Labour Party's motion has been at the heart of public sector pensions increase policy for a considerable amount of time. The Opposition Deputies should know that. It did not suddenly emerge as an issue when this Government took office. It was a live issue during the period of office of the previous Government but that Government did not take any action on it. To put it in a nutshell, the question at issue is how to apply to pensioners the restructuring deals negotiated under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. Those restructuring deals vary widely in their nature and give rise to great complexity when it comes to deciding how they should be applied to pensioners who retired before the various deals came into effect.

I will set the issue in the wider context of public service pension costs generally, both the current costs and, in particular, the greatly increased costs which will emerge in the medium to long term. I refer also to the work of the Commission on Public Service Pensions which submitted an interim report to me recently. I intend to publish that report in the near future. It is to present its final report by the end of next year and I look forward very much to receiving it. The commission was established by my predecessor, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, against a background of growing concern generally about the emerging costs of existing public service pension terms, a problem which was likely to become even more difficult if concessions were made to the growing clamour for substantial improvements in those terms from a variety of public service groups.

On the emerging cost of public service pensions, I note the Commission on Public Service Pensions is undertaking its own actuarial assessment of public service occupational pension schemes. All the evidence indicates the projected increase in costs over the coming decades will be at least of the order indicated in earlier preliminary studies. The likelihood is that, expressed in constant price terms, the cost of public service occupational pensions will increase from £540 million in 1995 to £2.2 billion in 2025 and to £2.6 billion in 2045. This represents a fourfold increase over a 30 year period. These projections are made in constant 1995 price terms and I assume there will be no improvement in public service pensions terms over this period. In addition, if one were to assume a higher level of pay increase than is assumed in the projections, there would be a markedly different outcome. For example, if it were assumed that average pay levels would increase by 5.2 per cent annually and prices by 2.7 per cent annually — as happened between 1987 and 1995 — the bill in the year 2025 would be £2.9 billion in constant price terms. This would represent a multiple of over five times the 1995 bill.

While one can argue about the precision of demographic forecasts and projections, this growth in Exchequer pension costs is not in doubt and the factors underlying it are quite clear. The primary cause is the major increase in recruitment in the public service which took place in the late 1970s, which will lead to increased retirements in 20 to 30 years' time. The two other contributing factors identified by the commission are increasing life expectancy and the greater number of female public servants who will qualify for pension benefits in the future. These factors will mean that on average a pension will be paid over a longer period, and so will increase overall pension liabilities.

The unfavourable cost outlook for public service pensions will materialise at a time when the general ageing of the population is placing ever growing demands upon the State's resources, particularly in the form of Social Welfare pensions and health care costs. As regards the former, an actuarial review of social welfare pensions similar to the study being carried out on public service pensions was launched recently by my colleague, the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern. The review estimates that total pension payments by his Department will increase from £1.7 billion currently to £3.2 billion in 2026 and £4.3 billion in 2046, on the basis that pensions are increased in line with inflation. If increased in line with earnings, the bill would rise to £5.6 billion in 2026 and £11.3 billion in 2046.

The questions which must be asked when considering this evolving cost scenario are: can we afford the expected increase in pensions expenditure over the years ahead, and what must we do to manage and prepare for this growth in costs? As regards the first question, it is necessary to relate the growth in costs to measures which will grow in line with economic activity. Making some broad assumptions about GNP growth, the commission has shown that expenditure on public service occupational pensions will increase from 1.6 per cent of GNP in 1995 to 2.3 per cent of GNP in 2025, before moving to 1.8 per cent in 2045. By way of comparison, expenditure on social welfare pensions will increase from 4.8 per cent of GNP in 1996 to 5.9 per cent of GNP in 2026 and 7.9 per cent in 2046, assuming rates of payment are increased in line with earnings. As a percentage of the public service pay bill, pensions expenditure will increase from a level of 11.5 per cent of pay in 1995 to 30 per cent of pay in 2025. It will then reduce to 26 per cent of pay in 2045.

As regards preparation for and management of the expected growth in costs, there are two aspects to this: the actual benefits provided by the pension schemes, and financial management and control arrangements.

Turning to pension terms, it must be acknowledged that public servants have accrued pension entitlements on the basis of existing terms and these obligations cannot be set aside or ignored. It is also conceivable that some changes to pension scheme terms may be inevitable to take account of changes in operational needs and terms of employment and to reflect possible developments in EU and national legislation and case law. The priority must be that additional pension scheme improvements are not introduced which would impose significant extra pension liabilities.

Against this background, the Commission on Public Service Pensions is carrying out the first independent examination of public service occupational pension schemes and their financing arrangements since the foundation of the State. Members are drawn from the pensions industry, Government Departments, trade unions and employers. It is to present its report to Government next year.

The interim report which I have recently received from the commission gives an outline of its work to date and comments on a number of issues coming within its terms of reference. Commenting on the cost figures, the commission notes that the gross cost of public service pensions will undergo rapid escalation during the period 2005 to 2025. While discounting the more alarming suggestions of a pensions "time-bomb", the commission adds that an increase in the future pension costs of public servants of the magnitude indicated must give serious grounds for concern. The increase in cost will impact not alone on the fiscal position but on the competitiveness of the economy as a whole. We can all agree that, given the prospect of a fourfold increase in the Exchequer pensions bill in coming decades, we cannot afford to adopt a liberal approach on this front with a consequential negative impact on the economy generally.

Regarding pension terms, the commission states that a major change in pension terms could cause a significant escalation in pension costs well beyond the figures outlined in its report. By their nature, changes to pension terms can often be effected at little or no short-term cost. The commission warns that, while the effect of such changes might be modest in the short term, regard must be had to the long-term effects and the possibility that specific arrangements made in respect of one group of employees might trigger similar demands in respect of others.

The commission's remit includes the question of whether public service occupational scheme terms remain appropriate having regard to changes in the working environment and conditions of employment of public servants and evolving operational requirements. It must be acknowledged that public service pension schemes have remained fundamentally unchanged since the last century. The system of occupational pension provision in place derives from the arrangements put in place to meet the needs of British civil servants in their old age. These were formalised in legislation during the 19th century and have remained unchanged since apart from some significant improvements in the last 30 years, for example, the introduction of a contributory scheme for spouses and children of public servants. I look forward to receiving definitive views from the commission on these matters.

To broaden the picture, Ireland is not alone in facing the effects of demographic ageing and the ever-increasing cost of pensions under both national pension systems and the pension systems for public servants. Other European countries have had to face similar problems. Many have introduced changes to pension terms with the aim, at least in part, of controlling the inevitable growth in costs. For example, the commission has noted that there is a tendency abroad to increase retirement ages for public servants. We are at an earlier point in the demographic cycle compared with these countries and should be well placed to take the necessary action to help contain the emerging costs.

How to manage and prepare for the anticipated growth in public service pension costs will also require an examination of the most appropriate mechanism for meeting pensions expenditure. The traditional approach, followed by most European countries, is "pay-as-you-go" in which the cost of pensions is met from current revenues. Having regard to the escalation in costs in the years ahead, it is reasonable to ask whether advance funding might be a better alternative.

It is often said in support of funding that the "pay-as-you-go" system fails to recognise the long-term cost of an improvement in pension terms or an increase in coverage. The focus is on benefits rather than costs. The commission reviews the advantages and disadvantages of both approaches. It has highlighted the costs of funding public service pensions which would be substantial. It has been estimated that a fund of the order of £15 billion would be needed to meet the public service pension liabilities accrued to date with an annual contribution of around £700 million to pay for future service.

The establishment of a fund would require "double" contributions from the Exchequer from the outset — it would be meeting on a "pay-as-you-go" basis the costs of the current generation of pensioners while meeting on a funded basis the accruing liability in respect of staff currently serving. A possible alternative to establishing a fund capable of meeting all liabilities would be to set up a partial fund to which pension contributions made by public servants could be lodged. Other possibilities which may be examined include funding certain components of pension schemes while continuing to meet the cost of the other components on a "pay-as-you-go" basis.

The commission has noted a number of practical and budgetary difficulties that would arise if funding, or even partial funding, were introduced and indicated that the matter will be examined further in its final report. It suggests that there should be regular actuarial reviews of public service occupational pension schemes and proposed changes to pension scheme terms. If formal funding is not introduced it is considered that there is a need to put in place a system which can clearly and quickly identify existing pension liabilities and the impact on these liabilities of increases in numbers or improvements in terms.

The strategic management initiative has, as one of its objectives, the development of better financial systems. The commission has indicated that a more transparent system of recording pension costs and liabilities would help contribute to an improved awareness among public service managers, employees and trade unions of the true value and cost of public service pensions and the cost impact of changes in pension terms. These suggestions will have to be given careful consideration.

I turn now to the question of pension increases in the context of restructuring deals negotiated under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, a matter of immediate concern to public service pensioners. It is useful to recap on the development of “pensions parity” in the public service. The principle of parity of pensions was agreed in 1969. In 1984, it was announced in the budget that general pay increases would apply to pensioners with effect from the date of the increases. The 1986 budget extended full pension parity to special increases with effect from 1 July 1986. During the past decade parity has been applied on the basis that pensioners would continue to have their pensions related to the salaries they would have had if they had continued to serve.

The restructuring deals negotiated under the PCW do not fit comfortably within the traditional pattern of special pay increases. In most cases, they were negotiated under option A of the restructuring clause. This requires "changes in structures, work practices or other conditions of service" and "must have regard to the need for flexibility and change and the contribution to be made by employees to such change and must result in savings and an improved quality of public service". As an alternative, option B allows a single cost increasing claim for an amount not exceeding 3 per cent of the basic pay cost which would "take into account the need for efficiency, flexibility and change and the contribution to be made by employees to such change". While option B increases could readily be accommodated within the parameters of the old special increases and, therefore, passed on to pensioners, option A commits serving and future staff to deliver genuine productivity and flexibility which would not have been delivered by pensioners. This clearly begs the question as to the appropriateness of applying such increases to people who have already left the service.

Furthermore the various option A deals differ widely in their structure as a result of which, if traditional parity applied, the impact on public service pension groups would vary substantially. For example, many of the deals concentrated increases on the payscale whereas others concentrated some or much of the increases on non-scale improvements. Consequently if parity, as traditionally operated were applied, some pensioners would get increases of the order of 15 per cent plus while many others would get 7 per cent or 8 per cent only. At the other end of the scale, a substantial number would benefit only from a 1 per cent increase in salary already paid with effect from 1 April 1994 while many others would get nothing because their deal did not involve a pay increase.

This may sound very esoteric and complex but it should be immediately obvious to Members that, if traditional parity applied in this instance, as proposed in the Labour Party motion, Garda pensioners would get no benefit whatsoever and teacher pensioners would get nothing more than the 1 per cent increase they have already received. Is this what is intended?

We just want what was intended on 4 June last.

On a number of occasions the Government has considered in great detail the issue of applying pension increases under the restructuring clause of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work to pensioners and, in order to help it in this area, referred the matter to the Commission on Public Service Pensions. I wish to inform Deputy Quinn that I have given this matter a considerable amount of thought. Indeed on 21 July last — approximately 27 days after assuming office — I wrote to Professor McAleese, chairperson of the Public Service Pensions Commission, asking him to consider this specific matter.

And I do not think I need to know what the reply was.

Later that month or early August I met Professor McAleese to discuss my letter in detail and I informed him of what I wanted him to do. Professor McAleese kindly said he would put it to the Commission on Public Service Pensions and replied to me on 18 September 1997. Therefore it will clearly be seen that in that short interval I have done more about this matter than my predecessor over the preceding two and a half years. I have referred the matter to Professor McAleese, met him, received his reply and discussed it with him.

Will the Minister sort out his own problems?

In the very near future I will announce what I intend to do in this regard. Nonetheless I might point out that the commission, in its reply, said it would face difficulties in articulating a definitive view on the problem at this juncture.

Exactly.

It considered the issue in its interim report but stressed that any comments were necessarily incomplete and preliminary.

Surprise, surprise.

It emphasised that it would be considering this issue within the broad range of pension issues coming within its remit and on which it is scheduled to report to Government in 1998.

Kick it into touch and advance back——

Nevertheless, its preliminary view on the pension increases issue, as set out in its interim report, was that pensions should be increased to provide a secure and fair level of retirement income to pensioners. The commission went on to suggest that there are three principal pension increase options available — that is in line with pay, with the CPI or with some other index appropriate to pensioners — each of which will be considered in its final report.

Members can rest assured that the Government will fully honour its commitment outlined in the Action Programme for the Millennium to protect public service pensions. I trust my words this evening will have served to highlight the complexity of the problem and shown it cannot be resolved by the crude application of a simplistic obvious formula.

The Government wants a fair and reasonable outcome to this matter and to provide, on an ongoing basis, a secure and fair level of retirement income for public service pensioners. While ensuring that pensioners in general are dealt with equitably, I have to devise a solution which marries the Programme for Competitiveness and Work deals with the rationale underlying the concept of pensions parity. I must also have full regard to the emerging costs of the Exchequer pensions bill.

It is against that background the Government will decide the manner in which the commitment to protect public service pensions will be implemented as part of the current Estimates/budgetary process.

I know Deputy Quinn is a democrat but, to endeavour to introduce the spurious argument that he is upset about the manner in which the electorate voted, how it gave its first preferences in the last general election ill becomes him. The election is over, the Deputy should get on with being in Opposition, just as we are in Government.

The Government has reneged on its commitment of 4 June last and will not restore the link.

I said that I intend to honour the commitment given in the programme for Government.

But not the commitment given on 4 June.

I will announce details of this in the very near future.

I come from a constituency where the vote is secret so I do not know how many public service pensioners voted for me. During the general election canvass I met many people on pensions who were worried about this problem. The commitment given by the Minister this evening will be honoured.

Over the past weeks, and particularly since the presidential campaign began, we have heard a great deal about the U-turns done by those on this side of the House. Fianna Fáil is not yet in a position to fulfil the promises made in the general election but if people examine our record in Government over the years, promises made before or during our terms of office were honoured. There is no reason to believe that the promise made on this occasion, to provide an equitable and fair level of retirement income for public service pensioners, will not be implemented. That must be done and that is the Minister's view.

I listened to Deputies Quinn, Penrose and Moynihan-Cronin setting out their case. One would think, having listened to them, that they did not exist prior to this evening but it must be remembered that it was under the aegis of the previous Government and the Labour-led Department of Finance that the PCW was negotiated.

Is the Deputy saying we should not have negotiated it?

Deputy Ahern, without interruption.

This problem arose as a result of that deal. Those of us in Fianna Fáil realise there is a need to ensure that all public service pensioners get a fair deal in the years ahead.

The Minister outlined in detail the problems he has encountered since coming into office but he assured the House and the pensioners that he will address those problems in the forthcoming budget. The pensions, social welfare and public service areas will have great implications not only for this country but for all nations. I assure my constituents that I will continue to raise this matter with the Minister to ensure they get the fair deal they deserve.

We are all agreed that the service given to this country by teachers, social workers, nurses, etc. is second to none. In comparison to the public service of other countries, the quality of our public service is excellent. We all have relatives who served at different levels in the public service and we are therefore familiar with it on a personal basis. These people deserve to get a fair return in the winter of their lives.

I wish to share my time with Deputy John Browne.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am glad of the opportunity to speak to this motion. I accept the Minister's point regarding the complexity of pensions and particularly the protections that will be required. The Minister's elucidation of the projections need not be so dismal. Let us hope there will be changes in the 21st century as dramatic as those which occurred in the last decade of this century. I would like to think the projections could be a little more generous.

Despite the complexity of projections for future pensions, current pensions should be increased in order to provide a secure and fair level of retirement income to pensioners. Future commissions on pensions will examine projections and many of our pension structures might even change to include individual payments to pension schemes. However, we are discussing the current situation of pensioners who are urgently seeking the payment of the pensions which were promised to them. They not only worked to earn their pensions and the increase that is due to them, but they did so at an extraordinary time in our history and at huge cost which sometimes involved living almost on the poverty line. They did it not only for themselves but to make this country what it is today.

Whatever the difficulties in the projections, and we accept there might be restructuring in the future, the case to be made in this debate is on behalf of the pensioners who are seeking, with just cause, the immediate implementation of part of their pensions. Their request should be considered in the context not only of the work they did, often at low levels of pay, to earn their pensions but also the inequalities under which they worked.

I wish to remind Members how much we owe these people. Many of the pensioners were involved in areas of employment which were virtually vocations, such as teaching and nursing, and they paid dearly for doing such work. It is important to highlight the inequalities in their earnings during that time and the consequent discrimination against them in their pensions. This is particularly relevant when one considers the position of women. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin has already referred to the low levels of pay and the long, unsocial hours of hard work which nurses, the majority of whom are women, had to endure. That is still reflected in the pensions on which these nurses retired.

During the decades we are discussing, there were three pay grades for teachers. Female teachers were paid less than male teachers while teachers who were single women were paid less than either. We owe these people not only for the work they did for low pay, at huge sacrifice and both outside and inside working hours, but also because they did that work at a time when there were huge social and legal inequalities. The complex projections we make in the future will at least be based on equality and parity.

The case we make tonight must be considered in terms of fairness as well as urgency. In many cases women did not reach pension age because of the level at which they entered pension schemes, particularly in the public service. It was assumed that many women would marry and move on. If women did not marry and retired early, their pensions were severely curtailed because of the level at which they entered pension schemes. Whatever the difficulties and state of the economy, we must be fair and pay pensions to workers in the future. Thankfully, there are more workers today and I hope a larger number of earning people will contribute to pension schemes in the future so that we will not face the precarious situation being projected.

We owe those people and not only in relation to recent promises. They faced difficult times, were on low pay and often their work was not well rewarded or valued, particularly the women who were denied equal pay which would have given them parity in terms of pensions. It is now pay back time. I am sure our competent public service and future Ministers will adequately deal with pensions in the future. However, we must pay those who were there for us when we depended on them.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Creid mé i gconaí, agus creidim fós, go mba chóir cothrom na féine a thabhairt do gach éinne, pé óg nó sean. Go mór mhór, ba chóir cothrom na féine a thabhairt do na sean daoine. For that reason, I am not interested whether the previous, this or a future Government deals with this matter. We must see that justice is done to pensioners who have served this country during their working years.

The Minister worries about the year 2045, but what did posterity ever do for us? I know a teacher who would set off on a four mile journey on his secondhand Raleigh bicycle to a rural school where he had the company of a rat for a long time, where the door was falling apart and which had a fireplace in which three sods of turf would fit but by evening there would only be an ember. That is a true story because I was that teacher. Forty years ago gardaí set off on their bicycles to keep law and order. We should not punish those who worked hard in the past and tolerated poor conditions simply because a new arrangement has been made where teachers and gardaí will use modern equipment and do tasks which those in the past did not do. We did not have squad cars or radar traps in the past.

There is no justification for the decision that pensioners should carry the can. It is fascinating that the PCW, negotiated by the unions and Government, caused this problem. Why should health workers, who looked after us in the past, but who are now known by another name, be deprived of the pensions which are due to them? I defend the rights of pensioners to be looked after. If we will face a problem in the year 2045, we have almost 50 years to plan ahead. We cannot tell people, who in the past paid their taxes in good faith and who worked in very bad conditions, that the future looks bleak and because we may not have enough to fund pensions in the year 2045 ask them to make a sacrifice now. It is deplorable and I am not making that as a political point. I understand the Minister's position because he is trying to balance the books. In his opening statement he said this was being considered in the course of the current Estimates and budgetary process. I presume he is saying that when the budget comes along he will fix this up despite the difficulties.

The people who have served this country well deserve that and I will continue to argue on their behalf while I am a Member. If I were on the Government benches I would do the very same thing.

Many people are now receiving pensions which date from a time when we could not afford to pay them adequate salaries. Their pensions were inhibited because of that. In addition, cost of living demands on people living on pensions today take on a whole new urgency and create a new poverty for many differing reasons. The Minister pointed out the type of problems we may face in future with regard to restructuring pensions and having a new perception of how people should fund their own pensions.

In the same way, the social context in which people live has changed dramatically and pensions have not taken cognisance of that. In a simpler and more rural social existence we had an extended family where people retired gracefully with a pension. They did not have to pay for their total upkeep, including rent and individual maintenance which, naturally, is always more expensive when living alone than if it is shared.

There has been a huge social change in the way we live and in the cost of living. We all know the numbers of people who are living on small pensions, sometimes in genteel poverty, if I may use the phrase. Because of the work they have done and their standing and status within the community, they will not allow their dignity to be damaged by telling others the level of subsistence on which they must live. They do not have an extended family, or the country style many of us grew up in, to cushion them. Many pensioners live in isolated areas and must pay not only for their maintenance but for sheer survival with regard to security and the ever present danger of being robbed of the small amount of money they have.

The older generation faces social and financial difficulties which were not foreseen when they were working. Many pensioners are attempting to keep and maintain large houses and accommodation which they cannot sell because in doing so they would lose their only sense of investment, security and funding for their old age. In addition, while the progress of medical science has resulted in longer life cycles, there are huge medical, financial and security burdens placed on people if they are to have a quality of life in their final years.

We are not just considering a group of people who have come from a low pay and low pension strata compared with the earnings and pensions, many of them private, that our educated and trained young workers will be able to fund. We must also remember that we have a highly trained and financially secure youth today with secure pension provisions to 2045 because the people now on pensions invested in them. That contribution must be acknowledged.

The last deadline before which the Government must resolve this problem by giving pensioners what they deserve with dignity and without further lobbying is 3 December. If it is to be conceded in the budget it should be made in time to make the lives and security of pensioners at Christmas and during 1998 better than when, to our shame, they had to picket and lobby before these Houses to get what is rightly theirs and what they rightly deserve.

I support the pensioners in this instance. A delegation from the Castlebar area, including people from St. Mary's Hospital and the county hospital, who visited my clinic some weeks ago were upset and annoyed that this commitment was not being honoured by the Government. The Government has broken many commitments.

We should reward those who have worked loyally for the State for many years and were expecting these increases. It is wrong that we should have to debate this matter tonight; the pensioners should have been given these increases automatically. The convention should not have been broken. As a result, they will not receive the same treatment as those on non-contributory pensions. It is wrong that they must fight for the increases.

When in Opposition, Fianna Fáil gave a commitment to honour this increase. I hope the party does so because it has not honoured any of its pre-election promises. I also hope it will be included in the budget and that the pensioners in St. Mary's Hospital, Castlebar, and the general hospital, Castlebar, and all those in the public service will be paid their entitlements.

Do not forget Westport.

We should never have had to move this Private Members' motion. I am glad the Minister has announced he will honour the Government's commitment to these pensioners and if he does so in the budget I will be the first to congratulate him.

Debate adjourned.
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