Vol. 482 No. 2
1 Mr. Kenny asked the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands the action, if any, she has taken to sort out difficulties in the Collins Barracks National Museum, Dublin 7; and the proposals, if any, she has in this regard. [17478/97]
2 Mr. M. Higgins asked the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands if she has secured an understanding from the Department of Finance to enable her make proposals to resolve the dispute at the National Museum. [17481/97]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
This dispute's origins can be traced to lost promotional outlets due to voluntary early retirement schemes in the late 1980s which decreased the number of promotion outlets in the National Museum. The small staffing pool in the National Museum served only to accentuate the lack of promotion opportunities, and a consequent build up of frustration among the professional and technical staff resulted. The situation came to a head in early 1997 when the recruitment of new staff with skills in disciplines such as conservation, marketing, information technology, etc. was initiated. These skills, which are essential in a modern museum, had not been provided previously in our National Museum. The staff now in dispute were aggrieved at the creation of six new posts, each to be filled by public competition, when promotions were not available to the existing National Museum staff. The staff then embarked upon the present course of industrial action in an effort to secure promotions.
On my appointment as Minister I inherited the industrial action among the professional and technical grades in the National Museum. However, there is a compelling need to resolve this industrial dispute. The National Museum is at a key point in its development, with the recent opening to the public of Phase One of the Collins Barracks project. It is my earnest wish that a practical resolution to the dispute is reached in order that the National Museum will be in a position to tackle the many challenges that lie ahead at this key time in its development.
Like every Minister I am required to consider all claims for promotions and additional staff within my Department in the context of the wider public sector pay and staff numbers policy, and this dispute can only be resolved within that framework.
I wish the Minister well in her ministry. I do not want to be seen to be acting like a smart alec, and I know the Minister is improving her skills in Irish, but would she be comfortable taking questions in Irish?
I am not as proficient as I would like to be in the Irish language so perhaps the Deputy would ask questions in English.
I understand discussion on the Estimates was concluded by Cabinet last week. The answer to this dispute, therefore, lies in the decisions taken at Cabinet. Will the Minister confirm whether she has secured agreement from the Minister for Finance for the inclusion of the necessary moneys and consequential posts to deal with this problem?
This dispute has caused great sadness, particularly on the day of the opening of the new museum in Collins Barracks which should have been a day of great celebration, especially for those involved in that museum. The dispute cast a shadow over those proceedings which was sad for all of us. I have high regard for both the professional and the technical staff of the National Museum. I said on that occasion I would do my utmost to ensure this dispute is resolved fairly and as quickly as possible. Discussions have been held and I spoke with the staff outside Collins Barracks on the day of the official opening. I have also had discussions with the chairperson of the board, and the board members have been talking to the unions. I hope this approach will resolve the problem and movement will be made on all sides to bring about a resolution as quickly as possible.
I wish the Minister every success and guím rath an Aire Stáit go maith freisin. I hope they both have a very productive period in office. My Question No. 2 specifically refers to such proposals as the Minister for Arts, Heritage, the Gaeltacht and the Islands might have put to the Minister for Finance. I share the Minister's concern about solving this problem. I am one of those who was disappointed on the opening day of the new museum because I find it impossible to pass a picket. My question is specific. I am concerned at the Minister's comment that the problem would have to be solved within the framework of a limitation on numbers in the public service. My clear understanding of this dispute is that it is less about money, in so far as many of the people are receiving an acting up allowance, than it is about grading. I suggest, therefore, that the agreement of the Department of Finance will be required to have an exception to the grading structures and limitations imposed if this matter is to be brought to a satisfactory resolution. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.
I thank the Deputy for his kind remarks on my appointment. I listened carefully to him and found his remarks strange coming from someone who filled my shoes for a number of years. He knows the various restrictions on Government in these problems. I inherited this problem. It did not simply raise its head in the past few months since I took office. It is a great shame the Deputy opposite did not put into force the suggestions he is now making, or perhaps he did — without results.
Lest there is a danger of the record being wrong, the Minister stated in her original reply that the problem began in the 1980s. I was a Minister in two Governments but I was not a Minister in the 1980s. I am not trying to score a point but if she examines the files, and she has access to them, she will find I made proposals to the Minister for Finance very much in line with what I am saying now. The difference between the Minister and myself, however, is that I was fighting for resources in terms of changes in grading and posts, not money, to resolve the problem. Is the Minister saying this matter can only be resolved within arrangements for the public service?
I was merely underlying the fact that the Deputy must know the procedures and difficulties I face having faced them himself when he came into office four and a half years ago. This is a difficult and ongoing problem to which we want to see a resolution. I have given a guarantee, publicly and privately, that I will continue to do all I can and use any methods available to bring about this resolution. The Deputy can be assured I will use every avenue regardless of whether suggestions come from the opposite benches or from my own to resolve this matter.
This is a lesson in reality for the Minister because when she inhabited the benches on this side of the House this was a minor problem. Deputy Higgins could have this matter sorted out in the morning — meet the unions, appoint the staff and get on with it. In the Minister's reply to the first question she said she felt there was a compelling need to sort out this matter. She is the Minister. She has a constitutional responsibility to sort it out. We are talking about a major investment of £33 million in one of the fastest growing areas of tourism interest. The Collins Barracks museum is an incomplete entity. The curatorial staff are demoralised as a result of this dispute.
A question please, Deputy.
This is a question and it is related to all the activities down there. The Minister has responsibility for this, yet when she was in Opposition she called on the Government to sort it out. It is a simple problem and there should not be any difficulty about it. The Minister has not answered the question as to whether she has sufficient moneys in the Estimates to deal with lifting this go-slow by IMPACT and the proper presentation of the artefacts in the National Museum at Collins Barracks. The Minister is aware that glass cases are empty in the museum, while others have unlabelled articles in them. Five rooms have been prepared for presentations yet there is nothing in them. It is not good enough. It is the Minister's responsibility to tell the House, the museum staff and the public when she expects to sort this out. Does she have money to do so in the Estimates, which were concluded last week?
With regard to the exhibits in Collins Barracks, some people are under the misapprehension that there is not enough to see and that much of the work is incomplete. Some of the work is certainly incomplete, but I want to fill the Deputy in with regard to the position. A great deal of hard work was put in by everyone concerned to ensure proper preparation for the opening. That included the staff of the National Museum, the Office of Public Works and my Department, with the co-operation of the Army for the celebrations on that day.
The restoration of the magnificent Clarke Square has now been completed and since then over 20,000 visitors have seen the exhibits within Collins Barracks. Curatorial staff involved in providing those exhibits are not happy because they have not reached the high standards they wish, but a certain number of exhibits can be viewed by the public. Up to 30 new staff have recently been employed for the new museum, taking into account attendants, sales assistants and tour guides.
As a former Minister, the Deputy will understand that this is not the place or the time to discuss the question of Estimates. There will be an opportunity to do so at a later stage and it would not be appropriate to give such information now. I have had an opportunity on a number of occasions to talk to the chairperson of the board. The board is having continual meetings with the union, as is my Department. I am being kept abreast of what is happening and I am making strong representations to ensure we come to an early resolution of this matter.
The matter was inherited by me. Deputy Kenny was a member of the Government who sat around the Cabinet table for four and a half years——
Two and a half years.
Two and a half years should have been quite sufficient to resolve this matter. It is all very well for Deputy Kenny to ask me to resolve this. We are doing our utmost to do so and I hope it will not take anything like the time it took under the last Administration where this matter simply was not addressed in the proper way.
I am restraining myself from going down the road of the present Minister. Would the Minister agree it would be useful to tell her colleague, the Minister for Finance, that she would have the support of the Opposition in seeking, as an exceptional measure, a regrading structure for staff in the National Museum and the National Library that would enable this dispute to be resolved? I say this in a positive spirit.
The Minister has yet again stated that nothing was done and that the problem was left there. She should read the files and she will see my proposals to the Department of Finance. Would it not be helpful to have a consensus, taking Collins Barracks as a new project I inherited from the 1980s when there were voluntary redundancies? The Minister says she inherited the problem from me, but that is not the way to proceed. Would the Minister agree that it may be necessary to seek an exceptional status for this problem within the public service agreement being negotiated with the Department of Finance?
I thank the Deputy for his intervention. I will take the opportunity of passing on to my Cabinet colleagues, and in particular the Minister for Finance, that they have the support of the Opposition benches in this regard. It is interesting to note, however, that when I was Opposition spokesperson, the then Minister for Finance had my support in seeing what could be done to resolve this matter, yet nothing was ever discussed in the House other than when the problem was highlighted by the Opposition.
I have repeated myself on a number of occasions because the questions are continuing to be repetitive. This matter is not a simple one in that the questions must be viewed in a global context with reference to Government policy. Within that framework I will continue to do my utmost to ensure that this problem is resolved.
I was particularly saddened on the day of the opening by the fact that this situation should have arisen at all. I commend all those who have done tremendous work under difficult circumstances and who have felt frustrated for many years because they have been acting in positions where in any other type of job there would have been opportunities for promotion. Because of the small pool involved those promotional opportunities were not there. I want to put it on the record that their work is recognised and that we will continue to do our best to resolve this matter.
I share the Minister's view that this is not the time to discuss the Estimates but she knows the conclusion of the Estimates in respect of her own Department. I do not take the view that talking to staff outside Collins Barracks on the day of its opening is the way to sort this out. It is the Minister's responsibility and I would like her to outline her agenda for action. She said she hoped it would not be long before it is finally dealt with. That must mean that the Minister is involving herself in this. The museum is in the Taoiseach's constituency and I am sure there will be an element of support from the Taoiseach at the Cabinet table. If she takes on board Deputy Higgins's proposal in respect of a regrading structure, the Minister will have our support.
It is a shame that the National Museum does not have a clear management structure and seems to be in an intractable position. I do not want to see the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands having to continually pass pickets. It is not good enough.
As I have already said, I had an opportunity of talking to the staff outside Collins Barracks. It certainly needs far more than that to resolve the dispute and that is why I have kept in close contact with what is going on. In addition, my Department has taken many initiatives to see what can be done in the overall context of the approach by Government. I have been in contact with the chairperson of the board on a continual basis and the board has been in contact with the unions. I hope this will be a vehicle whereby both sides can move closer together to find a resolution. That is the approach that is being taken at present.
The Minister has not yet put forward a proposal.
