John Bruton
Question:3 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach his views on the NESC report published on 19 December 1997 that identified the special development needs of counties Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim and Cavan. [1166/98]
Ceisteanna—Questions. - NESC Reports.
John Bruton
Question:4 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if the NESC study of an examination of the level of investment in Ireland and its implications for the sustainability of growth has been completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1201/98]
John Bruton
Question:5 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if the NESC study of settlement patterns in Ireland has been completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1202/98]
Jim Higgins
Question:6 Mr. Higgins (Mayo) asked the Taoiseach the reason that the NESC report which issued on 19 December 1997 was not published prior to that date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1210/98]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 6, inclusive, together.
The NESC report No. 102 on population distribution and economic development was published on 19 December last. Its analysis of population distribution patterns in Ireland, and the assessment of consequent policy implications, are matters which deserve thorough consideration. The report is set within the framework of how public policy can effectively achieve and sustain a high level of national economic and social development, while at the same time bringing about an equitable geographical distribution of the benefits. It concludes that competitive advantage has been achieved in certain areas, principally the eastern region, but that advantage has not been mirrored to the same extent elsewhere. In particular, it finds that counties Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim and Cavan remain on the margins of the urbanisation process, thereby enduring relative disadvantage in economic development. Consequently, the NESC recommends special area-based measures for these counties, which would take due account of local conditions and resources in policy development and implementation.
As a first step, the report has been referred to relevant Ministers and Government Departments for their deliberation. Having regard to the wide range of policy areas covered by the NESC analyses and recommendations, it is likely to be some time before the implications can be fully assessed. This is a matter which will receive the closest attention.
With regard to Deputy Higgins's Question No. 6, the report was submitted to my Department in December and considered by the Government on 19 December, the earliest date possible. It was published by the NESC on the same day. I understand the council was anxious to publish the report before the end of 1997.
Regarding the NESC study of private sector investment in Ireland, this has now been completed and will be published in early February.
In regard to the report on population distribution, will the Taoiseach agree that it contains startling information about the way in which our society is concentrating in certain major cities while other parts of the country, notably the north-west and west, are being denuded of population and that this is having very serious effects in terms of social life, connection with families, traffic, crime and a whole range of problems? Will the Taoiseach agree that while the report is extremely good on analysis, the recommendations it makes are vague? Will he agree also that it would be a good idea, in addition to referring the matter to Ministers and so forth, which I commend, to refer the report back to the NESC and ask it to make specific and radical detailed practical recommendations on what should be done rather than the jargon-laden and obscure findings at the end of the report under the heading "Policy Implications"?
I welcome the report which gives a good analysis of what has been happening over the past 46 or 47 years from a geographic and demographic point of view. It shows the ebbs and flows of population in various counties and regions over that time. It requires in-depth analysis and perhaps the Deputy is right when he says it might require further analysis leading to recommendations. Primarily I want the Departments to examine the report quickly to see how we should implement policy into the future. A number of initiatives are already under way. The Western Development Commission is already ahead on many of these issues. It has pre-empted much of the analysis and that is useful. The INTERREG, rural resettlement and local development programmes are doing that also.
The important issue highlighted in the report is that Mayo, Leitrim, Roscommon and Cavan have peculiar difficulties which must be separately addressed. It indicates also that the population in 19 counties increased in recent times. It also contains the surprising statistic that the eastern region only stabilised its population in 1981 and it has increased by about 1 per cent in the past 15 years. That is not in line with the commonly held view or, indeed, my view. We must now examine a range of initiatives to move this matter forward. The Government has already decided, based on the recent increased inward investment, to do everything possible to move much of that investment and offer incentives in a way that will shift the balance towards regional areas. The Government has also commenced the preparation of a White Paper on rural development which will be used in the context of the next round of CAP discussions taking into account not just agriculture but rural development in the broadest sense including education, industry and infrastructure. That will be useful in the discussions.
Will the Taoiseach agree that the map in this report clearly shows that the majority of people south-east of a line from Dublin to Limerick have experienced a major increase in income and the majority of people north and west of that line have experienced the reverse? Will the Taoiseach consider my suggestion and refer this report back to the NESC, which has all the relevant social partners as its members, and tell it that it has produced a good analysis but we would like more specific recommendations?
As I already stated to the Deputy, I am not ruling out discussing that matter with the NESC but its analysis has been useful in terms of moving forward departmental policy and the implementation of that policy. That is the only point I am making. We will continue to work on this. I am not against what the Deputy suggested. If there were clearer recommendations they might be included in the rural development programme. In the next round of Structural Funds and Common Agricultural Policy renegotiations, whatever the downside of some of those negotiations may be, it is clear that there is an opportunity in economic and social policy to try to improve the lot of some of these regions in the way we implement our policies. I am not ruling out asking NESC to do that, but there is much we can do based on the information we have been given.
In relation to the four counties mentioned in the NESC report and a recent report to the Border regional authority, two of the six Border counties which are named in the NESC report have experienced the least decline in unemployment coupled with a frightening decrease in population. Will the Taoiseach consider setting up a task force to immediately spearhead industrial development in that region? More importantly, what approach will the Government adopt to ensure that region retains objective one status for the next tranche of Structural Funds?
On the Deputy's first question, the Government referred the report and, in particular, its reference to the counties I mentioned previously, including Cavan, to all the Government agencies for a comprehensive examination. All issues in the report will be examined on that basis. Discussions have commenced on the best strategy to follow. The island has had objective one status and as we move forward we will make whatever decisions are to the best advantage. We have prepared figures on an island and on a regional basis and we will consider the best way to proceed in those negotiations. The Border regions are of particular concern and we will make sure that under Structural and Cohesion Funds and any other funds, whether under INTERREG, Leader or other projects, we will continue to gain the maximum moneys possible for those regions.
(Mayo): Will the Taoiseach agree that this document confirms once again, on top of the mountain of research and documentation on this, that effectively those regions and, in particular, those counties are dying? Apart from the unequal distribution of income manifest in the document, there has been a wholesale wiping out of townlands. In the region of 1,500 townlands have been completely wiped out. A startling statistic is that in the past 45 years the population of Cavan, Leitrim, Roscommon and Mayo has declined by 20 per cent. The document acknowledges that whatever about the Celtic tiger and the general upsurge in national incomes and welfare largesse, these regions have not benefited to any significant extent.
I note the Taoiseach spoke about deliberation and I appreciate that time will be afforded to study the contents of the document. However, what is happening about the £100 million investment package agreed in principle by the previous Government? What is happening about the designation of Knock Airport approved by the previous Government and brought into force under the Finance Bill? What is happening about major road and rail projects omitted from the national plan? I speak of the Dublin-Westport line, the Dublin-Ballina line and the Claremorris-Knock bypass. What village in Ireland other than Knock can boast an influx of approximately 1.5 million tourists annually? Yet provision of a much needed bypass was omitted from the national plan. What is happening about tax incentive schemes for smaller towns? Is the Government prepared to accept that smaller areas could be clustered into units to work in a cohesive way and obtain the type of tax incentives that have benefited Temple Bar and other regions?
The Deputy's questions cover almost every ministry. I thank the Deputy for giving credit to the wise decisions of my predecessors on Knock Airport and on designating areas and seeking to extend that scheme. The infrastructural programmes should continue to develop. As the Deputy is aware — he will have an opportunity soon to support measures in the Finance Bill — the budget contained increased tax incentives for the Shannon region and Border and western counties for tourism and leisure facilities. The resources which will be provided from European funds are substantial.
The Deputy will be aware also from demographics that some towns in his county are becoming wealthy. However, unfortunately, he is correct that villages and townlands have been wiped out in the 47 years covered by the report. We must continue to address rural and regional imbalances. Much work has been done in that regard in the past ten years. Regional airports have been established and areas have been designated under various schemes by different Governments. Educational institutions have been developed and more industries have been located in less populated areas. All these decisions are useful, but more must be done.
As I stated, the eastern region has not expanded as much as has been suggested. It is not in the country's interest that it expand. It is better in terms of balance that more people live in rural areas than large towns. The Government will continue to develop these policy initiatives and will pursue them in the White Paper on rural development later this year.
While I acknowledge the importance of addressing the issues of decline and poverty in rural areas, will the Taoiseach assure the House that steps to deal with those matters will not be taken at the expense of dealing with the huge pockets of poverty and marginalisation in major urban centres, such as Dublin, Limerick, Galway, Cork, Waterford, etc?
That is the balance which must be struck and measures are being taken. For example, £280 million will be spent this year on directly addressing social exclusion. This is separate from the vast sums spent on social welfare and other areas. The money will be spent on areas in the Deputy's constituency and in my constituency——
Where there are declining populations.
This and other reports show that if policies developed between the 1950s and 1970s, when matters stabilised, continued to be implemented, a position would be reached in 20 or 30 years where there would be a relatively small number of centres in this small country. That is not a good policy to follow. We should endeavour for environmental, agricultural, social and economic reasons to do our utmost to ensure balance in the development of the country. There are many good arguments why this should happen for the benefit of people in cities and rural areas. I am committed to this and my policy initiatives are the way to deal with it.
I am glad the report was published since it followed my initiative at the Department of the Taoiseach. However, I regret that I did not receive a copy of it. I do not know why the Department of the Taoiseach and other Deputies received copies and I did not receive one.
The main thrust of the study was to define settlement patterns for the weakening west. The Taoiseach dismissed the role of western development and renewal. Does the Taoiseach accept that it is time to review this matter? A new appointment should be made in his Department to carry on the good work done by the NESC study. Proposals must be brought forward. The Taoiseach did not reply positively when Deputy Bruton asked for further studies. Will the Taoiseach reconsider his decision?
The NESC sent out the reports. I would not do the Deputy the discourtesy of not sending him a report; I will make sure he gets one today. Regarding western development and the Western Development Commission, I was very supportive of all their initiatives when Minister for Finance and have continued to be since taking office. Deputy Bruton did not ask me to seek additional reports. He asked me to send this report back for recommendations. I did not rule out his suggestion that more and clearer recommendations are required.
Not every county highlighted in the report is a western county. Clare, Galway and parts of other counties fare extremely well in the report. It is a useful study, and I commend Deputy Carey's initiative when in power. The report mentions 19 counties and gives the lie to much recent exaggeration. It helps us to focus on areas with which we must deal and I will be doing my part in that regard.
Is the NESC to be put on a statutory basis? If so, when? This was mentioned before Christmas. Deputy De Rossa alluded to the fact that the planning tribunal arose out of intense pressure for rezoning in the eastern part of the country. In redressing that imbalance, does the Taoiseach take into account the need to support rural resettlement? This arises in the context of implications and proposals that should be copperfastened. Rural resettlement agencies have operated tirelessly, and often voluntarily, to facilitate the re-population of many townlands and villages seeking to retain small schools and post offices. Does the Taoiseach accept that this must be put on a far more——
The Deputy should ask a brief question. We are coming to the conclusion of Taoiseach's Questions, and two other Members are offering.
The Chair interrupted me.
It is appropriate for me to interrupt.
The NESF and NESC will both be put on a statutory basis. Work has commenced in preparation for this. Rural resettlement is a very good proposal, as are other similar suggestions. Good work was done by previous Governments on the designation of areas.
Deputy Sargent will be aware of problems with zoning. Nowadays nothing is being zoned, which is contributing directly to rising house prices.
(Dublin West): That is nonsense.
The Taoiseach should look closer.
(Dublin West): There is plenty of land to be zoned.
There is plenty of land? Why are so many proposals being rejected?
(Dublin West): Profiteering and speculation.
That may be part of the problem, but people who want to buy houses will suffer if there is no supply of houses. Deputy Higgins will know many proposals are being rejected even though they may look legitimate and be supported by planners.
(Dublin West): We must have green belts.
No interruptions, please.
On that basis, it seems sensible that rural resettlement proposals should be pursued and encouraged wherever possible.
Urban renewal schemes have led to the rejuvenation of a number of towns in rural areas. However, there is a population cutoff of 6,000 people for towns qualifying for those schemes, and counties such as Leitrim, Roscommon and Cavan, that do not have any towns of that size, have missed out. Has the Taoiseach considered discussing with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, grouping a number of towns or areas to ensure that some of these counties will be able to apply for urban renewal and will not be left out as they have been in the past?
Guidelines have been available for a considerable length of time and I will pass on the Deputy's point about this matter. Some of these developments and those put forward in relation to urban and rural renewal are helpful in developing towns. I hope the next round of developments will continue to do so. The Deputy's point arises from a previous Administration's terms of reference but I will bring it to the attention of the Minister of State.
What does the Taoiseach think? He should make a decision.
I am sure Deputy Bruton would welcome the decision in the hotels area relating to a number of the counties mentioned by his colleague ——
Will the Taoiseach do this?
——and we have implemented it. Is the Deputy admitting it was wrong in the first place?
We would be happy if the Taoiseach made a decision.
I do not wish to see this section of proceedings delayed unnecessarily because there is important business to be addressed. Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that the single greatest impediment to development, population stability and growth in County Cavan is the serious neglect of the basic road infrastructure that has spelled despair and a real sense of marginalisation for the people of that Border county? Does he agree special measures must be introduced by this Government to properly address and redress this serious neglect?
I presume the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will agree to putting extra resources into County Cavan. In the past seven or eight years vast amounts of additional money have been allocated to roads in County Cavan. We all hope these problems and the condition of roads in a number of counties, including County Cavan, will be addressed.
In reply to the last question, it is the case that questions on any matter are being asked, which was not the case before. I am prepared to answer questions on any matter but the Chair must determine whether questions may cover 14 ministries. I am knowledgeable enough to answer any questions and if that is the procedure the Chair wishes to follow, then so be it. However, it is not the procedure which has been followed in this House for the past 20 years.
Does Deputy Bruton remember when he was on this side of the House.