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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Mar 1999

Vol. 503 No. 1

Irish Sports Council Bill, 1998: Report Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 13:
In page 5, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:
"(h) to provide equality of sporting opportunity for everyone, regardless of gender, age or ability.”.
–(Deputy Allen).

Before the adjournment of the debate we discussed the provision of funds for basic sporting facilities rather than for flagship projects such as the building of a 50-metre swimming pool or the development of Croke Park. There is nothing wrong with the Government providing £20 million for Croke Park if funds are also provided for GAA clubs throughout the country. Many GAA clubs do not even have running water. Some may find this hard to believe but recently I attended a meeting of representatives of 21 schools in County Roscommon which do not have hot running water. Many sports clubs lack very basic facilities such as running water which is essential to deal with sporting injuries. We must concentrate our efforts on providing basic community facilities such as swimming pools and soccer and Gaelic pitches rather than provide funds for elite athletes and flagship projects. We must support our elite athletes and provide role models for young people but there is no point in having role models if young people who wish to participate in sport do not have the facilities to do so. Many parts of the country lack basic sport and recreational facilities. Their provision must be the priority of the Government.

Young people who do not have the ability to wear the national or county jersey must be given the opportunity to participate actively in sport in their communities. I ask the Minister to support this amendment.

I favour the amendment. The Minister must ask himself if this amendment will strengthen or weaken the Bill and he will agree that it will strengthen the Bill. I hope the Minister will accept the spirit of the amendment.

It is difficult for a Minister for sport or a sports council to identify priorities. There is a need to provide the facilities to ensure that our sportsmen and women attain the standard required to represent their country in international arenas or their county in Croke Park. However, there is a perception that the Minister is placing too much emphasis on specialist sports people, major projects and the achievement of excellence. It is widely felt that priority is not given to the work of people who, on a voluntary basis, ensure that hundreds of thousands of young boys and girls take part in sport on a weekly basis. These people organise football matches in all codes, athletics and a wide range of sporting activities. This amendment would require the groupings to provide equal sporting opportunities for everyone regardless of gender, age or ability.

The Minister of State, Deputy Flood, as an active parliamentarian, will know the difficulties experienced on a daily basis by those endeavouring to enable a sporting organisation to provide sporting facilities. When one considers the number of young people from the age of seven who are looking for a venue to play a match each week, it is a credit to the volunteers and the spirit of volunteerism which exists.

What is in place at present? In the area covered by the County Dublin Vocational Education Committee, £90 is available to clubs to get these teams up and running under the youth and sport grant from the Minister's Department. It is fine to say megabucks are being provided for major facilities, but will the Minister of State put his hand on his heart and say he believes, in the context of the thousands of clubs which provide facilities on a weekly basis, that £90 per annum is sufficient even to recognise the contribution these people make in providing sport for young people?

What is the alternative to sport? We are taking young people off the streets and away from other unfortunate aspects of Irish life, such as vandalism, drugs, etc. Deputy Allen asked the Minister if the youth and sport grant will continue. In fairness, more money should be allocated – even £250 would not be too much for the clubs in question. At least it would be an acknowledgement of their work and might go some way towards providing jerseys or something else for new teams being set up on a weekly or yearly basis.

The Bill would be strengthened by the inclusion of the gender issue. People may talk about the shortcomings in grant aid to sporting facilities but there is at least something for young boys. There is little, however, for girls. Where sports such as camogie, tennis or Gaelic football, for example, provide a service and facility for girls, it should be acknowledged and a grant should be provided to assist in developing facilities.

The other issue relates to age. We spoke earlier about youngsters from seven years upwards for whom we are endeavouring to provide facilities. I would also like to talk about older people. Reports from the Department of Health and Children encourage the full participation of older people in sport, whether pitch and putt or bowls, and we should acknowledge that. The criteria for grants from the Minister's Department to facilitate people starting off or older people, show that sufficient recognition has not been given to the needs of these groups. The inclusion of this amendment would ensure Members would give greater cognisance to the needs of these groups. I hope the Minister of State will see the merit of this amendment and accept it.

I listened carefully to the contributions of Members, and not only since the session commenced this afternoon. While my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McDaid, took Report Stage this morning, I listened to it in my office so I am up to speed with what Members said and value their informed contributions. The Minister regrets that due to a prior engagement he cannot be here to complete the Bill.

I assure the House that in framing the Bill the issue of equality in terms of sporting opportunity for everyone regardless of age, ability or gender was not overlooked. Section 9 requires the council to have regard to Government policy in carrying out its functions and to comply with policy directives issued from time to time by the Minister.

One of the cornerstones of the policy is that the Government has committed itself to establishing an inclusive society where every citizen has the opportunity and incentive to participate fully in the social and economic life of the country. I draw Members' attention to the equal status Bill which has been redrafted by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is indicative of the Government's commitment on this specific and very important issue.

The sports council will not provide sporting opportunities at the level of the individual and, therefore, it would be inappropriate to impose a statutory obligation on it to provide equality of opportunity not consistent with the role envisaged for it. The council will work with a range of bodies in the business of providing opportunities to participate in sport and will work through and in support of such bodies. For example, under the current grant application scheme, non-governmental bodies – if they wish to maximise the funding they receive – must seek to increase the participation of young people, women and people with disabilities as part of the development of their organisations.

If Members examine the contents of my Department's strategy statement, they will note, for example, the priority given to the participation in sport and recreation in disadvantage communities. I draw the House's attention to initiatives, such as the pilot programme for disadvantaged areas, the drugs initiative, over which I have some control, the young people's facilities and services fund and the new sports capital programme. These initiatives serve to underline the Government's commitment in the area of policy to the disadvantaged.

Members referred to priority and the question of flagship projects. It is fair and reasonable that people might raise the issue of flagship projects and the resources required to promote and sustain them. I ask Members to bear in mind that this country is coming from a long distance behind in relation to major projects of the type mentioned by them this morning, and we must catch up. Many people who do well in sporting activities find it necessary to draw to the attention of the Government and other agencies that facilities are not available to them and they are compelled to go abroad to find facilities to enable them to enhance their prowess in their chosen sport. That is not to say this Government or its immediate predecessors have neglected to invest in basic sport and recreation facilities. Moneys from the national lottery were paid through the Department of Education, as it was, to help local organisations to provide facilities. Those grassroots bodies may have generated local funds and drew on grant allocations from various Departments to operate their schemes. It is not fair to say they have been seriously neglected in comparison to some projects mentioned by Members.

The question of elitism is raised from time to time. It is asked whether we give an unnecessarily large amount of resources to those who excel in various sports. All of us take pride when Irish people do well on the international stage; it gives the country a great lift. When raising the question of elitism, we should be conscious that success on the international stage draws young people to pursue various sports or recreational activities. When Irish athletes achieve great success, young people are drawn to that activity. The same applies to our native games. When a county or province wins a national honour, more young people become involved in that pursuit.

This interests me because of my role on the national drugs strategy team. We want more disadvantaged young people to become involved in sporting activities because if they do, they tend not to be involved in what are loosely termed anti-social activities.

I will not enter the debate about the GAA, because that has been frequently discussed inside and outside this House. However, coming from that background, the hundreds of thousands of young people who pursue GAA activities all look forward to a day when they might play for their school, college or county on the hallowed turf of Croke Park.

Many contributors mentioned the voluntary effort put into sport and recreation by hundreds of thousands of people through the years, which has made a tremendous contribution. Those working at that level are entitled to support. Equality and access are not being ignored in this Bill. It will be incumbent on the sports council to implement Government policy in this area.

The Minister of State said he listened to this morning's debate but he did not respond to some issues raised by previous speakers. I mentioned the status of the review group on the role of women in sport but received no response on that point. On a day when the Taoiseach is announcing, in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, the details of Ireland's bid to host the 2003 Special Olympics, it is important this legislation should enshrine the principles of equality of treatment regardless of age, gender and ability.

It is regrettable that those who launched the bid for the Special Olympics were forgotten today. The Minister may be at the announcement but those from the previous Administration were disregarded. An invitation was put into my pigeonhole at 11.30 a.m. today but I had to attend this debate and was unable to make alternative arrangements. It is bad form that the former Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, and other members of the last Government were not invited in good time but only as an afterthought. All parties supported the bid to host the Special Olympics. The last Administration drew up the bid but the Taoiseach is basking in its success and seems to have forgotten who did the hard work. I like to protect the status of Oireachtas committees and it is regrettable that Members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation were also forgotten today.

We should enshrine in this legislation the provision for equality of sporting opportunity for everyone. We will push this issue to a vote because it is a key principle.

I am disappointed the Minister is not accepting the amendment. He said that section 9 outlined Government policy and ministerial directives but this amendment would only copperfasten a Government's policy at any stage. The legislation should provide that the Government will ensure equality of opportunity regardless of age, gender or ability.

The Minister mentioned elite athletes having to go abroad but the main reason for that is not infrastructural facilities but the coaching and training facilities. Sonia O'Sullivan did not need to go abroad to find a running track, she could have trained at the Mardyke in Cork to her heart's content. She went abroad for coaching. We need to coach not only elite athletes but all young people and we need to put resources into that.

The Minister spoke about flagship projects but this is like a person buying a £500 suit while walking around in bare feet. Unless we have basic facilities – swimming pools, showers in soccer and GAA clubs – young people will not become involved and we will not lead them away from the curse of drugs, which is a rapidly growing problem not only in urban Ireland but in rural areas also. We should target them. To ensure we have young people who can compete in the elite venues of tomorrow we must invest resources in them today. I ask the Minister to reconsider his decision.

Judging by the Minister's response on section 9, is it the intention that all other legislation relevant to the points made in this debate, such as the Equal Status Bill, when it comes back to the House in its new form and is passed into law, will automatically apply to the Irish Sports Council? The language used in section 9 is not sufficiently tight. What specific legislation will deal with the rights of senior citizens? It may be that it will be covered under the Equal Status Bill. I want an assurance that other general policy and legislation will automatically apply to this Bill, when enacted, and cover the issues raised in this amendment. I am concerned that the rights of the disabled be included. I take the Minister's point that the new Irish Sports Council will not be dealing with individuals but there must be basic rights for groups who need to have positive discrimination to participate.

At the end of Second Stage I recall the Minister saying he was prepared to take on board whatever reasonable amendments would be tabled to strengthen the Bill. This amendment endeavours to cater for everyone irrespective of gender, age, disability etc. Given that the inclusion of this amendment would strengthen rather than weaken the Bill, what is the objection to it? The Minister rightly said that while the Irish Sports Council will not deal with all the different aspects, individuals or individual groups its policy would be clearly set out in the Bill and it would complement all the other aspects of equality. I appeal to the Minister to accept the amendment.

I regret I did not refer to the task forces in my earlier contribution. The current Sports Council established a task force on people with disabilities. The intention was to bring forward proposals to ensure greater participation in sport and to establish a task force to address the issue of women in sport and the reason there appears to be lower participation rates among women than men. The intention was to formulate a series of realistic proposals to overcome any barriers to women participating in sport.

Both reports are nearing completion. Their findings will form the basis for the statutory sports council to consider strategies to promote greater participation in sport by women and people with disabilities.

Deputy Naughten referred to young people and drugs and the need to support their active participation in sport. That is the policy of my Department. The young people's facilities and services fund has £20 million at its disposal. This fund is not about only about bricks and mortar but about putting personnel and other support services into local areas. It assists organisations in their fund-raising efforts to have personnel brought on board to support them with leisure and recreational activities and so on.

Section 9 provides that the particular council must have regard to Government policy and must comply with any general policy directives which may from time to time be given to it by the Minister. I am convinced that covers what Members are trying to achieve in the amendment. Therefore, the amendment is not necessary.

I do not agree with the Minister. Section 9 is aspirational and weak. By being spec ific the amendment beefs up the aspirations of section 9. It seeks to ensure equality of opportunity for everyone irrespective of gender, age and ability.

In the absence of the review group on the capital grants scheme we do not know the Government's policy in that whole area. The sooner the report sees the light of day the better so that we will know the parameters within which money is distributed.

Last week I tabled a question on swimming pools. There is a demand from local authorities and communities for in excess of £25 million for the refurbishment and upgrading of swimming pools, some of which are antiquated, unhygienic and below acceptable standards.

Some are like pigsties.

Before creating national monuments to our self-esteem and ego, adequate facilities at community and club level should be put in place. We are pressing this amendment.

Amendment put.

Ahearn, Theresa.Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Belton, Louis.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Farrelly, John.Ferris, Michael.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.

Higgins, Michael.Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Yates, Ivan.

Níl

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.

Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John. Fahey, Frank.

Níl–continued

Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.

Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.O'Dea, Willie.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett and Ferris; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Power.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 5, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:

"(h) to examine applications from sporting, recreational and community groups for National Lottery funding towards capital projects and to allocate such funding to those applications as selected by the Irish Sports Council.".

Amendment put.

Ahearn, Theresa.Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Belton, Louis.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Farrelly, John.Ferris, Michael.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Michael.

Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Yates, Ivan.

Níl

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.

Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin. Brennan, Matt.

Níl–continued

Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.

Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.O'Dea, Willie.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett and Ferris; Níl, Deputies S.Brennan and Power.
Amendment declared lost.

Amendment No. 15 was discussed with amendment No. 6.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 5, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:

"(h) to examine applications from national governing bodies for annual funding and to allocate such funding as deemed appropriate by the Irish Sports Council.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 5, between lines 37 and 38, to insert the following:

"7–The Ombudsman Act, 1980, and the Freedom of Information Act, 1997, shall apply to the Council and any reference in any enactment to the non-statutory Council which existed immediately prior to this Act shall be construed as a reference to the Council.".

Some months ago I tabled a parliamentary question but the information I requested was denied on the basis that the cost of compiling it was excessive. I then used my rights as an ordinary citizen under the Freedom of Information Act and obtained the information. This posed the anomaly that information to which I was not entitled as an elected Member was obtainable as an ordinary citizen.

I make this point in the context of the strength of the Freedom of Information Act. The Ombudsman Act applies to instances of maladministration or where people feel aggrieved that their cases have not been properly dealt with. People need such an avenue of appeal. The Freedom of Information Act applies to the non-statutory council. I do not anticipate that the Ombudsman will receive many queries involving the Irish Sports Council. Nonetheless, the right of appeal should exist for citizens who wish to pursue grievances.

I recall cases arising from grants made to athletes. Some years ago a national organisation led an athlete to believe his name had been submitted to the Department of Education for a grant. The athlete did not receive a grant and I was asked to pursue the matter on his behalf. It transpired that his name had not been submitted. There is a need for openness. This has been a feature of how the non-statutory council has developed. It is important that all legitimate information is available through the Freedom of Information Act and that we avoid the sort of misunderstanding and ill-feeling which arose in the case I outlined, and others. Let us see the criteria for the disbursement of grants to high performance athletes. Where national organisations are required to put forward the names of athletes, let us see the names that have been nominated and how the schemes are implemented.

I seek the establishment of a grievance mechanism and a mechanism by which people have access to information. The concealment of information invariably serves a negative cause. I hope the Minister responds positively to these two issues.

I support this amendment. The Bill will be substantially improved by the incorporation of the Freedom of Information Act and the Ombudsman Act. This will be proven in the context of information which may be required at some future stage with regard to decisions made by the council. The incorporation of these two Acts in the Bill would ensure information would not be concealed. Important decisions will have to be taken by the council and the incorporation of these two Acts will enhance the Bill and provide openness. That is very important.

It is our intention that the Irish Sports Council should be a designated body under the Ombudsman Act and the Freedom of Information Act. The Minister stated on Committee Stage that this matter is more properly dealt with in the context of the original legislation. In this regard, the Department is making arrangements with the Department of Finance concerning the procedures for having the council designated as a scheduled body for the purposes of both Acts.

As regards the specific case mentioned by Deputy O'Shea, as a scheduled body under the Freedom of Information Act, the council will be required to publish details of all criteria, procedures and systems in respect of grant schemes. This will include details of appeal mechanisms available to applicants.

I accept the Minister's intention is that the new statutory Irish Sports Council will be added to the schedules of the Ombudsman Act and the Freedom of Information Act. On that basis I am satisfied the objective of this amendment will come to pass. I do not propose to pursue the matter at this stage.

I welcome the Minister of State's comments and the openness to which he referred in the context of the criteria and the decision-making process concerning grants. There was a perception, not without foundation, that in the past grants were allocated purely for political reasons. This was the case regardless of what Government was in power. A Minister might turn up at a meeting and, after a short speech, present the grant. That approach did not work. In fact, it operated against the spirit and development of sport.

If the commitment given by the Minister of State is implemented, I will welcome it. People will know that if they have a worthwhile project for the development of sport which stands on its merit, they will get funding on that basis. This will remove the perception of sports funding as a political football which is allocated on the basis of who one knows and whether the Minister lives in one's constituency. There should be openness about the criteria and I welcome the commitment offered by the Minister of State.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 7, line 32, to delete "eight" and substitute "ten".

I am pleased to propose this amendment which was put down by Deputy Allen on Committee Stage. It increases the number of ordinary members of the council from eight to ten. The increase will allow for sufficient membership of the council to avail of the wide range of skills necessary for it to operate in an effective and dynamic manner. At the same time, the new council size will still be in keeping with my desire to maintain a small, executive style council and to avoid an unnecessarily unwieldly structure which would hamper its effectiveness.

I welcome the Minister of State's agreement to this amendment, which I put down on Committee Stage. The amendment is not an effort to have more heads on a committee in order to give out favours or appointments. In 1994, Cospóir had about 24 members. The previous Government reduced that number to 13 but I considered the contraction to eight a little severe.

People are appointed not because of the sports they represent or their political connections but because of their overview and experience of sport. I am confident the Minister will take that into account in making appointments to the council. People should and will be appointed on the basis of their broad vision of how sport should progress in the context not only of sport itself but also of using sport as a preventative measure in the fight against crime and drugs. I have full confidence that the Minister and Minister of State will ensure that people will be appointed to the council on the basis of what they know, not who they know.

Given that the Special Olympics will be held in Ireland in 2003 and bearing in mind the issues surrounding disability and the position of senior citizens, the Minister might consider, before the Bill is sent to the Seanad, providing that some members of the council should have special knowledge of sport and recreational sport for the disabled and for senior citizens.

Gender is not an issue in this case because under section 8 of the Equal Status Bill and under the gender quota approach, there will be sufficient numbers of both men and women on the council. I understand there must be at least three of either gender. However, to ensure that the dis abled and senior citizen constituencies are served to the best effect, there should be an onus on the Minister to ensure that expertise in these areas is represented among those appointed to the council.

I was not involved in the Committee Stage debate on the Bill and I am not aware of the case put forward by Deputy Allen for this amendment. However, given that Deputy Allen is very much involved in sport and was Minister of State with responsibility for sport in the previous Administration, I do not doubt that the case he put forward was sound. I compliment the Minister for taking this amendment on board.

The important issue here is personnel. One of the drawbacks in Irish society over the years was the perception that appointments to be made by the Minister or Government of the day would be made on the basis of political allegiance. This system did not do justice to any of the organisations concerned and they did not benefit from appointments being made in that manner.

In view of the need for development in sport, it is important to appoint people on the basis of their experience, knowledge, commitment to give of their time and energy and what they have achieved. They need not necessarily be achievers in the sense of winning All-Ireland medals, success in the Olympic Games or having represented their country. There are people in different areas of Irish society who can make a major contribution to the development of sport. These are the people who have the necessary expertise and who should be appointed to the council.

Elderly people have pointed out that in various sectors of activity the needs and expertise of the elderly have been forgotten. They played their part in building up this country in many areas but once they pass 55 years of age, they appear to be forgotten. I echo the comments made by Deputy O'Shea. In nominating people for appointment to the council, consideration should be given to those who will represent the needs of elderly people and who have experience in this area. I ask the Minister of State to bear this in mind.

I am not one of those who demand that organisations X, Y and Z should be represented on a body. That could lead to all kinds of trouble. That is why the Minister moved away from the Cospóir model. What is required is a working council. However, he should take on board the views we have expressed on this matter.

I will take on board the comments of the Deputies on this matter and bring them to the attention of the Minister, Deputy McDaid. I share the sentiments expressed. I also wish to put on record my views on appointments to this council or to any other statutory agency. Irrespective of what pertained in the past, any appointment to a council of this kind or any other State agency that does not ensure the best possible personnel are placed on such boards does the whole mechanism a disservice. Therefore, we must ensure the best possible people are placed on this board and on any other board because they have an important and significant role to play in the well-being of organisations and, in this case, of this new council. I share the sentiments of the previous speakers on this issue. I will bring their comments on what I will loosely describe as ageism to the attention of my colleague, the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation.

Mary Davis represents the Special Olympics on the present council. Ann Ebbs of the para-olympics has played an important role in the area of sport and recreation over the past number of years. Those bodies have added substantially to the development of this scenario since mid-1994. The contribution of the main committee and the sub-committees has been significant and is much appreciated. I support Deputy O'Shea's comments that there should be ongoing representation of those groups in the mainsteam.

Amendment agreed to.

We now come to amendment No. 18. Amendment No. 19 is cognate and, therefore, amendments Nos. 18 and 19 can be taken together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 13, line 2, after "conditions of service" to insert "(including conditions in relation to tenure of office)".

I tabled these amendments following a letter I received from the Public Service Executive Union regarding this Bill. The contents of that letter are significant. It states:

The Union is concerned to ensure that the provisions of this Bill, in so far as they relate to the transfer of civil servants to the new body, are on a par with similar legislative provisions which applied in the case of staff transferred from the civil service to other bodies such as Telecom Éireann, An Post, FÁS, the Health and Safety Authority and the Irish Aviation Authority.

As the Bill stands, we are concerned that the legislative protection proposed for the transfer of staff is not on a par with the provisions enacted in the examples cited above. We therefore proposed an amendment to the Bill to the Minister for his consideration but the Minister has indicated that he is not willing to introduce such an amendment.

The text of the proposed amendment is enclosed and the union would be appreciative if you would consider same, with a view to having the matter raised when the Bill next comes up for debate. The effect of the amendment is to make it clear that the provisions relating to no "less than official terms and conditions of service" include conditions in relation to tenure of office. The formulation we have proposed in the attached amendment to deal with this point is precisely the same as that enacted by the Oireachtas in section 40(2) of the Irish Aviation Authority Act, 1993.

The union understands that there is a view that the Bill, as it stands, covers the issue of tenure but we are not satisfied that this is the case. In our view, the provisions of the Irish Aviation Authority Act point to the necessity for a specific mention of tenure and it is unreasonable of the Minister not to apply similar provisions in this instance.

The amendment suggested would have had the effect of deleting section 22(5) and replacing it with the following:

Except in accordance with a collective agreement negotiated with any recognised trade union or staff association concerned, a person who is transferred in accordance with subsection (4) to the Council's staff shall not, while in the Council's service, receive a lesser scale of pay or be made subject to less beneficial terms and conditions of service (including conditions relating to tenure of office) than the scale of pay to which he or she was entitled and the terms and conditions of service (including conditions in relation to tenure of office) to which he or she was subject immediately before his or her transfer.

I submitted that amendment and, on the suggestion and with the co-operation of the Bills office, it was redrafted in two forms as contained in amendments Nos. 18 and 19.

On Committee Stage, the Minister said he would consult the Attorney General's office to ensure the protection required by members of the union would be covered in the Bill. I tabled these amendments to give the Minister an opportunity to state what the Attorney General's office said about these reasonable requirements of the Public Service Executive Union.

As the new sports council will be a small body, the scope for promotion for any civil servants who move to it will be limited. The Minister should consider allowing an interaction between the Civil Service and the new sports council on an indefinite basis. If any civil servant moves to the new sports council, he or she should have an option to return to the Civil Service at a later date. If civil servants, who may be very skilled, have to cut their ties with the Civil Service when they move to this new body that is in its infancy, that will pose a risk and may deter them from moving. If a civil servant joins this new body that is developing, he or she may encounter a person ality clash and other problems and under the provisions of the Bill they may not be able to return to the Civil Service. Perhaps I should have given notice of this matter. I ask the Minister of State to respond to this concern.

I seek clarification of these important points raised by Deputy Allen. Essentially, it comes down to whether the term "conditions of service" includes the tenure of office protection sought by Deputy Allen. Will civil servants who transfer to the new sports council be able to take part in Civil Service competitions at a higher grade than that which they hold, and, if successful, will they be allowed to return to the Civil Service? Will their contracts preclude them from returning to the Civil Service at a a time of their choice, once they have given notice to the new council to enable it fill their position? These are important questions concerning problems that may arise because of a weakness in the drafting of legislation which may not protect the conditions of employment of employees who wish to transfer from one organisation to another.

Will the Minister of State clarify the position regarding the terms and conditions of service that will apply to employees of the new sports council? I take it that employees who transfer to the council will not suffer a loss of salary. I presume they will also be entitled to the same terms and conditions of service and scale of pay as their colleagues with whom they worked in the Department and which they enjoyed immediately prior to transferring to the council. That point has been made by the unions and I support it. I hope the Minister will be able to meet the objectives of the unions representing the staff transferring to the new council.

In tabling these amendments, Deputy Allen focused the attention of the Minister, myself and our officials on what is clearly a very important issue. Other contributors to the debate have also referred to it. Tenure of office is defined by section 5 of the Civil Service Regulations Act, 1956, which states: "Every established civil servant shall hold office at the will and pleasure of the Government". The view of the Department of Finance, one shared by this Department, is that tenure of office is one of the conditions applying to the employment of established civil servants and therefore implicitly included in the current wording. This view has recently been confirmed by advice from the Attorney General's office. Therefore, we feel that an amendment is unnecessary.

I understand that the Public Service Executive Union has been made aware of this information and appears to be satisfied, but that is for themselves to confirm to Members of the House. Section 22 (24) provides for the transfer of estab lished civil servants to the staff of the council on its establishment date, and that all such transfers will be on a voluntary basis. Negotiations will take place with the respective unions with regard to the establishment of the council and such transfers. There are issues that will have to be clarified, and the unions will be part of that process.

I thank the Minister for his comments on my reservations and those of the trade union. I am still not clear on one point. It is important at this stage of the development of the sports council that we should attract the best people to its staff. That should include civil servants who have worked for decades in the area. It would be unfair if people who are invited to become part of the development of the new sports council had to permanently cut their ties with the Civil Service. Being a very small body, the prospects of rapid promotion to a very high level would be significantly lower than in the mainstream Civil Service structure. Will there be an opportunity to interchange between the sports council and the Civil Service? Will there be a two-way channel or will it be just one way, and a person working in the sports council stays there until he or she chooses to go elsewhere? It is important, in order to attract the best people, that there be a two-way system in operation. I ask the Minister to clarify this.

The point raised by the Deputy is an important one. This is not the first time a council of this kind has been established and transfers have taken place. Section 22 (6) provides that in respect of civil servants who transfer to the council, their previous service is reckonable for the purposes of various employment Acts. This is a standard provision applying to civil servants transferring to State bodies which has been used in similar previous legislation, for example, the Irish Aviation Authority Act, 1993, the Marine Institute Act, 1991, and the National Cultural Institutions Act, 1997.

Obviously, those who transfer to the council will do so on a voluntary basis. I am not in a position to answer the question posed by the Deputy, but I will endeavour to get that information and send him a note, and the matter can be raised when this legislation goes to the Seanad.

I request that the documentation which the Minister has undertaken to send to Deputy Allen be sent to the other Deputies present.

My understanding of the legislation which we are going to pass is that there will be a one-way system. In other words, if a person decides to leave the council, the decision is irrevocable. I am simply asking that, between now the taking of the Bill in the Seanad, pro vision should be made for a two-way system. It would be in the interests of everybody, including the sports council, to attract the best people, and some of the best people are in the Civil Service.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 19 not moved.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I extend our appreciation to all Members of the House for their support of the Irish Sports Council Bill. It enables the establishment of the first ever statutory sports council which will further enhance the role of sport in our society which all of us, particularly those who participated in this debate, have a very strong interest in and commitment to. I thank the Deputies for their interest in the Bill and for their contributions to the debate. We all learned a great deal in the process. I also thank the officials of my Department for their work on this legislation and extend thanks also to the staff of the Bills Office.

I congratulate everybody involved also. The passing of this Bill is the culmination of much work that has continued since 1995. I thank the civil servants in the Department of Education and Science and in the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation and the members of the strategy group which was set up in 1995 to develop the national plan for sport, out of which the proposal for a statutory sports council evolved. We will now have a strong and effective sports council. Without such a council or national strategy up to now sport could not attract the funding it required. Sport is not just about weekend activities, it is about getting young people involved in positive activities and away from the anti-social problems the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, speaks about so often.

The statutory sports council that will be put in place will attract the funds required to provide a modern infrastructure of sporting facilities at local, regional and national level. It will also allow the organisations and thousands of volunteers involved in them throughout the country the support they require – not only the financial support but also the policy and guidance they need in dealing with young and old alike.

I appreciate what has been done since responsibility for sport moved from the Department of Education and Science to the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. I also want to record my appreciation of the responsible Ministers of State and the Minister who have continued to implement what essentially was an apolitical document produced after wide consultation with all political parties. That is what we set out to do. They have implemented the proposals of that independent group in a very fair way.

I came late to the debate on this Bill which was previously the responsibility of my late colleague, Deputy Pat Upton, who had been the Labour Party's spokesperson on sport.

The attitude of both the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, and the Minister, Deputy McDaid, to what was emanating from the House has been constructive. The establishment of a statutory sports council is something the Labour Party saw as very important. I look forward to the sports council achieving a regime where there will be greater involvement in both competitive and recreational sporting activities.

I belong to a large group of people who are overweight and could certainly benefit a great deal from more participation in sport. There are all kinds of benefits to be gained from sport, including social and health ones. The sports council will be very important in this regard.

I wish the Minister of State and the Minister every success in implementing the Bill when it is enacted into law.

As the House passes this Bill, it is appropriate that, as has been announced by the Minister today, the Special Olympics will be held here in the year 2003. That shows what this country can do in the area of sport. For a country of its size and population, we have achieved great success over the years in different sectors of sport. That was done on the basis of an ad hoc arrangement whereby the various sporting organisations did their own thing. As we prepare to enter the new millennium we are placing sport on a statutory basis. Given the commitment from all sides of the House, I have no doubt that the new legislation will enhance the entire area of sport.

Earlier we referred to the use of performance enhancing drugs. I hope one message that will emerge clearly in the context of this Bill is that we do not want cheats in sport. There is no place for them. The Bill is being enacted to enhance sport for both the young and the not so young. We do not want sporting endeavours to be clouded by the use of drugs. No cheats will be tolerated in this area.

On the basis of this legislation, I am confident that the development of sporting facilities and training will go from strength to strength. If our past achievements are anything to go by, on the basis of sporting grant allocations that have been identified for different organisations, and with the proper personnel in place on the new sports council, this is a sound day for sport. It is appropriate that today has seen the announcement of the Special Olympics in 2003, which I referred to earlier.

In the new millennium we may well host the European championships or even the Olympic Games at some stage. As we develop on the basis of this legislation and given the commitment from volunteers which the new council will co-ordinate, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that we will see a big improvement and major developments in Irish sport.

I compliment both the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, and the Minister, Deputy McDaid, on introducing this fine legislation.

Question put and agreed to.
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